Paleo 'ethical' concerns

Hi all!

So basically I am a huge proponent of the paleo way of living and what it stands for. It has transformed me, mentally and physically, and I feel so great and energised on a daily basis! Recently, however, i've had minor concerns with regards to meat consumption. Recently it properly 'connected' to me that I was eating live, sentient beings- animals which felt pain. On top of this I felt furious by the concept of factory farming, and could not see how any death, be it organic or grass fed, was 'humane' (I love my animals!). So I became vegan - only a paleo version, so no beans quinoa etc. literally nuts, seeds, berries, veggies and sweet potato. Fun, I know.
(Actually I loved it - a great experience to experiment with my cooking! :D)
Even supplementing with superfoods - spirulina, chlorella, maca etc - And proper nutritive planning, I still feel weak and my nails are brittle. Had my first bite of salmon today and felt alive - no doubt I am better suited eating animal protein! Not only that, bit inspite clocking calories, eating when hungry, and stuffing so many greens in my face I turned into Shrek, I was WAY leaner on a non-vegan version of paleo. I just cannot shake off the guilt, or the frustration at how my body seems to be 'demanding' animal protein - something which paleo dictates, yet my heartstrings seem to wince at the thought of.

Apologies for the rant/nonsense! I was wondering if any of you had similar issues, and if you have/still are overcoming them.

Replies

  • Nutmeg76
    Nutmeg76 Posts: 258 Member
    Would you fault a lion for eating a gazelle? A gorilla for eating the bugs it picks out of its partners hair? What about a bear for eating salmon? No? Why not? Because it is what they are required to eat to survive. We may be on a higher level of thinking, but we are still animals. Our make up as animals requires us to eat certain foods for optimal nutrition. Eat the best quality you can. Maybe fish for yourself, go crabbing or even learn to hunt so that you know the animals you are eating lead a good life. When it comes to many animals, like deer in parts of hte US they NEED to be hunted to maintain the health of the herd and keep them from starving to death. Hunting them is doing the other deer a favor by allowing them to thrive. It is survival of the fittest.
  • MikeFlyMike
    MikeFlyMike Posts: 639 Member
    I would agree with nutmeg. not saying you are wrong. People can choose or not choose to eat meat for any reason they want. I have no problem eating vegetables and they can't run away. Don't people always say plants can sense when you are talking to them. anyway - I thought this post was pertinent and just read this morning.
    http://www.people.com/article/blonde-vegan-jordan-younger-blogger-eating-disorder-orthorexia

    There are other ways to get what you need as a Omnivore by being vegan. It just takes even more work. Actually there is a gal GoKaleo - (google her), that promotes a generally paleo lifestyle but without meat.

    I tell vegans we have lots in common and eat just about the same - except I probably eat more veggies than they do.
  • bluebird321
    bluebird321 Posts: 733 Member
    My wife is a hardcore animal rights activist, so it was an issue that almost broke up the marriage.

    We finally compromised -- she chooses where I buy meat and egg products (free range, humane, no anti-biotics etc). Very expensive for me, but worth it. She is happy that we aren't supporting the factory farming industry and I get to eat healthy.
  • SteamClutch
    SteamClutch Posts: 433 Member
    I agree and think factory farming is unethical and should be outlawed, but that will never happen. I eat way more veggies than I do meat and most of my protein comes from eggs, dairy, seeds and nuts.

    After seeing a few documentaries last summer I was leaning towards a near vegetarian diet but with eggs and fish to supplement. I had to justify the eggs and what not because I know many vegans (and I am not saying they all are this way mind you) that are really not firing on all cylinders. I know without some animal proteins in us we tend to go that way because we are built to eat meat, our digestive systems are built and run better when we consume animal products.

    So far, and some one can prove me wrong but I have never read any literature saying to eat nothing but meat in the paleo lifestyle, they say you can but most people would run away from that concept. I think I could cut what i consume in half but it is not likely because I love to cook and meat just really adds to the menu.
  • Sofithomas
    Sofithomas Posts: 118
    All wonderful replies, thank you so much! I have to say my non-animal protein experience did outline the importance of the minerals and amino acid that, say, one fillet of fish can provide! I definitely will not eat from factory farms and if I do eat meat etc it shall be from a good source.

    I guess it's hard for me to justify my eating meat with the idea of evolution and survival of the fitfest - it's modern day, and it's not like we are exactly hunting, on the brink of desperation, for our next meal like our ancestors were. Animals are BRED for consumption which is what makes me feel uncomfortable. But this is something I will adjust my thinking around!

    Also thanks for the GoKaleo recommendation, I shall take a peek :)
  • kikih64
    kikih64 Posts: 349 Member
    I agree with you about the factory farming. I think animals should have the best life possible, but we are also animals and I believe we are meant to be omnivores. It's a personal choice and I wouldn't criticize anyone else's lifestyle. And contrary to some media reports, paleo doesn't mean eat "all the meat". I think you can find a balance that will make you happy and healthy. You need to feed your body just like any other animal. I make an effort to choose the least factory-farmed meat, eggs, fish and chicken that I can, and my hubby hunts, so I have a freezer full of game meat too. Sometimes, it doesn't work out and I have to buy what's on sale or something. I don't stress over it, I just do the best I can.
  • drmartz55
    drmartz55 Posts: 78 Member
    Yes- I agree with you kikih64- great attitude/suggestions, I try to follow that idea of only buying natural/organic products. It started to really concern me after reading & seeing how factory farms were producing meat.
  • In reading a few posts on marksdailyapple.com in the forums I had seen this question posted a few times. Mostly in regards to vegans/vegetarians trying to get used to eating meat after not for so long. One of the comments I thought was really great, and it amounted to something like this.

    "Usually when I am going to eat meat, I thank it. I thank it for giving it's life to provide me sustenance. Part of life is death, and this creature died so that I may live, I am grateful for this creature that did so for me." (Not an exact quote, more of a paraphrase ;) ).

    Some other advice was about taking baby steps. Eggs and fish tend to be good starting points for many. If that is where you draw the line, and your doing well on it, then don't stress! You have found what is working for you, while many of us are still looking ;). And fish is a great protein for you anyway, great for Omega 6/3 balance. A good next step is usually ground beef, as it can be mixed in with other things so it isn't so intense.

    Same thing with texture. It might not even be the flavor that could put you off, but the texture. Like for me, I am not that fond of cooked fish. But I love the texture and flavor of sashimi (raw fish).

    Take it slow, and find ways to incorporate animal proteins in a way that you are good with it. And don't stress about it, stress can undermine what we are trying to accomplish as well. You will find what works for you!

    KR
  • Akimajuktuq
    Akimajuktuq Posts: 3,037 Member
    There is no "ethical" issue in regards to eating animals. Recent research is highly indicative that plants are also sentient beings. Many aboriginal groups think even things like rocks, rivers, mountains etc (the planet in general) are sentient beings. So if one thinks that eating sentient beings is unethical, then what would you propose to eat? Imo it's a non argument until the time that human beings grow chromosomes and harvest energy directly from the sun, but even then we will need nutrients that comes from the nutrient cycle (dead and decaying life forms).

    The ethical issue with eating animals only comes from how they are treated and harvested. There is no need to hurt and torture animals in order to consume them. All life on this planet (animals, plants, rivers, mountains, etc etc) should be treated with utmost reverence and respect. That's the only ethical issue I see.

    Recently, I found a supplier of grass fed meat (beef, pork, chicken, lamb, turkey) that will ship to me in the Arctic. Originally they were not shipping here, but demand made it happen. I never stopped looking for a supplier for the last 2 years. Perseverance paid off. The grass fed/free ranged meat plus the wild meat that I have some access to means that I have fully shifted away from eating animals that were mistreated/disrespected. I couldn't be more happy. Eating happy animals is what nature intended for us, while being thankful and respectful for that which is provided.

    PS. Do some research into "societal collapse". This modern day "we are above/exempt from nature" concept that prevails is a fallacy. Our modern life is a blip in our history and will end faster than it arrived. Achieving and maintaining ideal health is more important now than ever before with all the things our species is messing with (anti-biotics, GMO, weaponizing diseases). We are part of nature; always have been, always will be. I'm thankful for that.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    Death is, in my opinion, not an ethical matter. Everything dies, and everything deprives something else of life in order to survive, even plants. Not only are you depriving that plant its life by eating it, but that plant has deprived other plants of life by crowding them out and taking their nutrients, or even actively strangling them.

    Death is neither good nor bad, it just is. Therefore, to get upset because something died doesn't really make sense to me.

    What is an ethical matter, though, is how the thing lived while it was alive. Many Paleo people, I think, will agree that pastured and ethically-raised animals are the way to go, and hunting is the gold standard. For some, the reason this is best is the ethical matter.

    We may be smarter than most other animals on this planet, but we are not above our own physical nature, and our physical nature is very much one that requires some amount of meat. In fact, meat is so important to human life that landlocked primitive tribes that have otherwise entirely plant-based diets will even go as far as eating the people of the shore tribes to get the necessary nutrients, and in better times, even when those tribes are at war, the tribes will still trade food and the carriers of those foods were not harmed.

    Chris Masterjohn wrote about what Dr. Price found regarding this topic -- http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/

    Also, here's a fun fact -- we are not the only creatures that have tamed or possibly domesticated other creatures/lifeforms. Baboons (and other animals) have been known to keep pets, and ants have been known to tame and possibly domesticate aphids and farm fungus. Turns out, damselfish farm algae, too. And there's even a species of wasp (as if they aren't big enough *kitten*) that enslave spiders.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080324173459.htm
    http://itotd.com/articles/451/non-human-farmers/
    http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/newly-discovered-wasp-species-enslaves-spiders.html

    Then, there's also the question of whether being veg*n is actually ethical. The act of farming causes death of animals, from the insecticides used to kill the insects (which then may be transferred to high order animals, see also: DDT), to the farming equipment itself killing small animals, to the farms themselves destroying habitats and the environment and needing mass amounts of water diverted from other places.

    Here's an in-depth look at the problems with the ethical argument -- http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/1141998663/how-the-ethical-argument-for-veganism-fails-and-one
  • maria_antoinette
    maria_antoinette Posts: 239 Member
    Hi Sofithomas
    I have alot of Vegan friends... they look for ways to get protein without eating meat and they are all fine and healthy and look great.. This is an issue i have found to be VERY personal for each person.

    I for one love meat, and i eat it alot.. but if i were one day to have an issue for whatever reasons, i would research my way around it like my friends have, to either change your mind or to solidify your idea and find a way around it...

    We are all so different.. Peace and Love to you - good luck on your Journey to find answers