Starting a Strength Program - Advice Needed
dazedandconfused87
Posts: 44
Hi lovely EM2WLers,
Hope everyone is doing well! I posted this on the EM2WL forums, but I haven't seen any response there and I think this forum might be more active.
So -- last time I had introed myself I was just starting to EAT MORE, thought I had reached my goal weight, decreased on cardio and just focused on free weights with short HIIT sessions.
Well... I knew my weight had increased but I had no idea how much. Because heavy lifting and weight training is so encourage by the fitness community, I got a gym membership. Yesterday, had that fun "Fitness Consultation" which I DO know they offer in hopes to get you to sign up for personal training, but I can't dispute the information they gave me, the results of the test, or what my current stats are.
So I'm 5'7 and 151 lbs. Meaning, in my reset I have gained 10-15 lbs. Ouch. That was a hard pill to swallow. Body fat was approximately 28%. The number was hard to process, but what was harder to process was knowing that exercising on my own for the last 3 years or so has essentially had me spinning my wheels in the mud. I haven't gained any real strength or fitness or muscle -- I was dieting myself down and losing fat sure -- but I lost muscle mass too. Really, really disheartening. So not only have I been abusing my body, I have also been abusing it for no real purpose. And I miss my figure 10-15 lbs ago but I am trying my best to deal with it. I have to learn to love myself and my body at any size. Gulp.
Anyhow - here's where the problem comes in. They want me to do personal training obviously, and of course I see the benefit. Looking at my form on numerous exercises I learned how off I was. My mountain climbers? Feet weren't coming in close enough. Squats? I tend to favour leaning the left side. We also went through some of the machines to try them out. Lat pull downs? My lats weren't isolated. Chest press? I didn't sit properly on the bench and used incorrect muscles. Sigh. It continues.
I know strength training is a huge part of gaining fitness and I want to gain more lean body mass. I want to be able to carry things on my own and not struggle. Seeing that weight sucked but ultimately the number is just a number. I want to increase fitness and feel good about myself. But -- the training fees are INSANE. They wanted a $500 downpayment with $200 biweekly, which I believe is for 4 sessions per week. I can't afford that, it's out of the question. I don't know anyone who COULD afford that in all honesty. And that was the whittled down price when I balked at the initial cost I was quoted -- which was a $900 down payment with $400 biweekly. He whittled it down to 60 sessions at that "low" price. And then of course there's the pressure to sign up by Friday in order to make sure I get the trainer he thinks would work best for me. Right.
So now I'm even more confused. I need to readjust my TDEE and eat more calories I guess, knowing that I'm at a higher weight again? Is this true? And now I feel utterly defeated knowing that if I go to a gym, I'll be doing exercises incorrectly and for what? What's the point of doing it if it's just going to be incorrect and therefore not beneficial?
Does anyone have any recommendations for me here? Have you found yourselves in a similar scenario? I want to be able to do this properly. I don't want to keep YOYOing and forming disordered eating habits, and I want to be able to confidently work for strength and performance in the gym but now I feel completely lost.
Sorry for the length, just needed to vent this one out a bit!
Hope everyone is doing well! I posted this on the EM2WL forums, but I haven't seen any response there and I think this forum might be more active.
So -- last time I had introed myself I was just starting to EAT MORE, thought I had reached my goal weight, decreased on cardio and just focused on free weights with short HIIT sessions.
Well... I knew my weight had increased but I had no idea how much. Because heavy lifting and weight training is so encourage by the fitness community, I got a gym membership. Yesterday, had that fun "Fitness Consultation" which I DO know they offer in hopes to get you to sign up for personal training, but I can't dispute the information they gave me, the results of the test, or what my current stats are.
So I'm 5'7 and 151 lbs. Meaning, in my reset I have gained 10-15 lbs. Ouch. That was a hard pill to swallow. Body fat was approximately 28%. The number was hard to process, but what was harder to process was knowing that exercising on my own for the last 3 years or so has essentially had me spinning my wheels in the mud. I haven't gained any real strength or fitness or muscle -- I was dieting myself down and losing fat sure -- but I lost muscle mass too. Really, really disheartening. So not only have I been abusing my body, I have also been abusing it for no real purpose. And I miss my figure 10-15 lbs ago but I am trying my best to deal with it. I have to learn to love myself and my body at any size. Gulp.
Anyhow - here's where the problem comes in. They want me to do personal training obviously, and of course I see the benefit. Looking at my form on numerous exercises I learned how off I was. My mountain climbers? Feet weren't coming in close enough. Squats? I tend to favour leaning the left side. We also went through some of the machines to try them out. Lat pull downs? My lats weren't isolated. Chest press? I didn't sit properly on the bench and used incorrect muscles. Sigh. It continues.
I know strength training is a huge part of gaining fitness and I want to gain more lean body mass. I want to be able to carry things on my own and not struggle. Seeing that weight sucked but ultimately the number is just a number. I want to increase fitness and feel good about myself. But -- the training fees are INSANE. They wanted a $500 downpayment with $200 biweekly, which I believe is for 4 sessions per week. I can't afford that, it's out of the question. I don't know anyone who COULD afford that in all honesty. And that was the whittled down price when I balked at the initial cost I was quoted -- which was a $900 down payment with $400 biweekly. He whittled it down to 60 sessions at that "low" price. And then of course there's the pressure to sign up by Friday in order to make sure I get the trainer he thinks would work best for me. Right.
So now I'm even more confused. I need to readjust my TDEE and eat more calories I guess, knowing that I'm at a higher weight again? Is this true? And now I feel utterly defeated knowing that if I go to a gym, I'll be doing exercises incorrectly and for what? What's the point of doing it if it's just going to be incorrect and therefore not beneficial?
Does anyone have any recommendations for me here? Have you found yourselves in a similar scenario? I want to be able to do this properly. I don't want to keep YOYOing and forming disordered eating habits, and I want to be able to confidently work for strength and performance in the gym but now I feel completely lost.
Sorry for the length, just needed to vent this one out a bit!
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Replies
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Hi there, i replied to your post on EM2WL.com! :flowerforyou:0
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Easiest one first - yes your TDEE would go up if you are moving more mass around.
Second easiest - was that HIIT and lifting done on different days?
Bad idea. Why?
If you had a good lifting workout, meaning you damaged some muscles that now require repair, hopefully stronger, hopefully more (not likely in deficit though), then that recovery is impaired in a diet. And repair can take 36-48 hrs.
Meaning if you do anything intense with those same muscle needing repair - you just killed all or most of the repair process.
Additionally, it's difficult if not possible to get a good lifting workout in doing it with tired muscles, because you did a HIIT workout the day before using the same muscles.
This eventually turns in to mediocre workout after mediocre workout. The HIIT no longer becomes HIIT, but just intervals (there is a difference), and the lifting turns in to maintenance, not improvements.
Now, since HIIT became a fad, there is a whole lot being called HIIT that actually isn't. High Intensity Interval Training. You can NOT, impossible, to reach high intensity if you go too long, or don't rest long enough. You can do a harder interval, compared to the rest interval. But it's called HIGH because there are already Short Interval Training and regular intervals, and HIGH means something different.
Besides which, HIIT was meant for the person doing sports or cardio that didn't want to do lifting - because it's as close to lifting as you'll get with cardio - if done right.
If your are already lifting, skip the HIIT.
I think it sounds like you saw this end effect of no improvement.
And yes - that amount sounds outrageous for training.
You can check and confirm what good form is on youtube videos. You can check yourself in the mirrors or better to record it for later compare with lighter weights.
When you did the reset, did you jump up to estimated (key word there) all at once, or work your way up?
And if you haven't done much weighing, you could have just been slowly gaining fat because your estimate was over actual TDEE, just plain overeating.
To your concern of dieting down and losing muscle - I take it the diet was not reasonable deficit like EM2WL encourages?
If you were lifting, you would still be hard pressed to lose muscle mass even then with steep deficit, though you sure aren't going to gain any.
Now, that could indeed be reason for no performance gains if indeed in steep deficit. But a badly laid out workout routine isn't going to help either.
Unless you are at some high weights in lifting that you want to maintain, the best lifting for fat loss is really circuit training, because it makes a bigger calorie burn, therefore bigger TDEE, and 15% of bigger number is bigger deficit and bigger loss amount.
Plus the fact its such a big carb burner, that increases insulin sensitivity and the body's ability to handle carbs better.
And since it's higher reps, it's easier to eek out increases in performance especially with reasonable deficit.
Harder to increase 10 lbs on the bar when doing 5 x 5, then doing 4 x 20 and you can just drop to 4 x 15 reps, working your way back up to 20 reps. Then you increase again.
It also doesn't require that long to recover from, and since that is impaired in a diet, that's helpful.
Just some thoughts as to what happened, to perhaps influence going forward.
If you need those form videos, let me know.0 -
Easiest one first - yes your TDEE would go up if you are moving more mass around.
Second easiest - was that HIIT and lifting done on different days?
Bad idea. Why?
If you had a good lifting workout, meaning you damaged some muscles that now require repair, hopefully stronger, hopefully more (not likely in deficit though), then that recovery is impaired in a diet. And repair can take 36-48 hrs.
Meaning if you do anything intense with those same muscle needing repair - you just killed all or most of the repair process.
Additionally, it's difficult if not possible to get a good lifting workout in doing it with tired muscles, because you did a HIIT workout the day before using the same muscles.
This eventually turns in to mediocre workout after mediocre workout. The HIIT no longer becomes HIIT, but just intervals (there is a difference), and the lifting turns in to maintenance, not improvements.
Now, since HIIT became a fad, there is a whole lot being called HIIT that actually isn't. High Intensity Interval Training. You can NOT, impossible, to reach high intensity if you go too long, or don't rest long enough. You can do a harder interval, compared to the rest interval. But it's called HIGH because there are already Short Interval Training and regular intervals, and HIGH means something different.
Besides which, HIIT was meant for the person doing sports or cardio that didn't want to do lifting - because it's as close to lifting as you'll get with cardio - if done right.
If your are already lifting, skip the HIIT.
I think it sounds like you saw this end effect of no improvement.
And yes - that amount sounds outrageous for training.
You can check and confirm what good form is on youtube videos. You can check yourself in the mirrors or better to record it for later compare with lighter weights.
When you did the reset, did you jump up to estimated (key word there) all at once, or work your way up?
And if you haven't done much weighing, you could have just been slowly gaining fat because your estimate was over actual TDEE, just plain overeating.
To your concern of dieting down and losing muscle - I take it the diet was not reasonable deficit like EM2WL encourages?
If you were lifting, you would still be hard pressed to lose muscle mass even then with steep deficit, though you sure aren't going to gain any.
Now, that could indeed be reason for no performance gains if indeed in steep deficit. But a badly laid out workout routine isn't going to help either.
Unless you are at some high weights in lifting that you want to maintain, the best lifting for fat loss is really circuit training, because it makes a bigger calorie burn, therefore bigger TDEE, and 15% of bigger number is bigger deficit and bigger loss amount.
Plus the fact its such a big carb burner, that increases insulin sensitivity and the body's ability to handle carbs better.
And since it's higher reps, it's easier to eek out increases in performance especially with reasonable deficit.
Harder to increase 10 lbs on the bar when doing 5 x 5, then doing 4 x 20 and you can just drop to 4 x 15 reps, working your way back up to 20 reps. Then you increase again.
It also doesn't require that long to recover from, and since that is impaired in a diet, that's helpful.
Just some thoughts as to what happened, to perhaps influence going forward.
If you need those form videos, let me know.
Hello! Long post so I am going to try and best address everything you've asked --
1. I would do a short "HIIT" circuit after weight training based on a program I found online. It was HIIT in that it was burpees, jump squats, mountain climbers, etc all done in succession in about 2:00 minutes, with a break between sets. So maybe not so much HIIT, but moreso a cardio circuit at the end of each lifting session. I was doing 2 days upper body, 1 day rest, 2 days lower body, 2 days rest with the circuit being done only 2x a week and if I felt up to it, 1 day of sprints (jog 1 minute, SPRINT one minute although I guess it was more of a faster run than an all out sprint!)
2. As for the jump up -- it's very hard to say. I didn't weigh myself since I started the reset until the consultation, simply because I didn't want to get discouraged and then fall back into bad habits of insufficiently fueling. I would think that it was a slower work up though, because initially there was little change, but over time my clothes got so much tighter and more uncomfortable and I started noticing a difference in my appearance. I may have been overeating but I've been around 2.1K to 2.2K over the last 2 months and at 5'7, working out 4x per week and living in a city environment where I do walk a lot and take transit, I would have thought I could maintain on that. For what it's worth I don't think I'm gaining any longer, but my scale at home needs to be replaced with something more accurate.
3. Yes - my dieting calories were unreasonable. I wasn't counting as the plan I was on said counting calories was obsessive. I started losing weight pretty quickly (I suppose for someone who doesn't have a large amount to lose that is) and I was happy with the results so I continued on, thinking this was my "new lifestyle" and not a diet. Well, flash forward to sheer exhaustion all the time, hair falling out more than usual, thinking about food ALL THE TIME and I decided to plug in my calories just to see -- and they averaged about 1500 - 1800, with about 30 -45 min exercise 6x a week, and not eating back any exercise calories. (Didn't know this was a thing! MFP has taught me so much) I was doing light dumbbells and body weight exercises here and jogging a lot without seeing any improvements in speed. Go figure!
4. I don't mind doing circuit training - just from all I've read here, lifting heavy is very much encouraged and I want to change my body composition more than the # on the scale. I just feel confused as to where to start - what weights to use, how to build a program, and this trainer boggled me even further. I would love to see any videos you would recommend along with any sample plans. I'm not completely sure what you're recommending below -- are you saying to start at a lower weight, higher reps?
Thank you for such a thorough response
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Stronglifts 5x5 is such a great programme for beginners and EASY to do once you learn the proper form. What I did was hire a trainer who was willing to show me and critique my form on the five lifts that you do. I met with him twice. And then I just started lifting. The good thing about the gym is that people are willing to help out, so if you are uncertain about your form, you can ask one of the guys to help.
If Stronglifts sounds not right for you, then I would go to the Scoobyworkshop site and look at his gym workouts...he talks about a few that are good. Best of luck in this journey!0 -
Hmmmm ok, that sounds like really great advice too.
I had been thinking of maybe hiring a trainer for a couple of introductory sessions to get some pointers and feedback and a preliminary plan going at least.
I did join the stronglifts group a few days ago and I just need to read through it when I have time this weekend.0 -
1 - Ok, good, not HIIT, despite them using the fad name. And good doing it with whatever strength you had after the lifting. Keep those points in mind going forward though about lifting with fresh muscles and allowing repair, it means even more lifting heavy to truly benefit.
2 - I was thinking more the calorie eating level. Straight from low to high, or increasing like 100 extra each week? Good to know about the weight though. Because it would take 35 days eating 100 over true maintenance to gain 1 lb. But it sounds like your weight finally increased to match your eating level, because then you stopped growing.
4 - If focus is body recomp over fat loss, then indeed going heavy is needed. If you were just starting out lifting, circuit first would be best because it'll do both while strength is gained, but if you've already been doing it, then time to move to heavy lifting. If eating at maintenance and doing 5x5 at limits, you could probably trade fat and LBM at rate of 1 lb per 8 weeks. It's slow. With a deficit it'll be slower. The first couple months at least may be faster while tapping out existing muscle for whatever it can do.0 -
I went at it right away -- I started increasing slowly first but then decided to go all in and stop freaking out over the inevitable weight gain -- needed to accept that this is my body for LIFE and that taking care of it is more important than anything else. It caused me a lot of stress and anxiety to think about the damage that I could have been doing.
I'm confused at fat vs. recomp -- based on my new weight, I THINK I'd like to lose 15 or so lbs, but I also don't really care about the number on the scale if I am happy with how I am looking and feeling. According to the scale calculator, my body fat was 28.3% which I honestly thought seemed high considering I am a pretty active person and was doing light dumbbells and body weight exercises for the better part of 3 years now. I don't know if the scale could have been inaccurate or if I am just hoping I am smaller than I actually am.
I'm going to have to get a proper scale this weekend since the one I have at home is very unreliable so I can track things more carefully. I'm going to sit down this weekend and actually fill out that lengthy spreadsheet you have.
I've been resetting since early July now and I'm wondering when I should try and cut again. I think I'm going to ask my doctor about it at my next appointment in 2 weeks or so to get a professionals advice.
Gosh -- seems results will take so long! But I know now seeking quick fixes is what got me in this mess in the first place.0 -
Well, there is quick and unreasonable, there is also quick and reasonable.
Going slower than reasonable doesn't provide any benefit other than exercise is easier to make performance gains the closer to maintenance you are.
But obviously that means the less fat you burn.
Recomp usually means literally no weight change desired, just burning fat as slow as adding muscle - which is slow. As I mentioned, men, with the added benefit of better hormones, traded at rate of 3.5 lb in 16 weeks. Women would be slower since not the same hormones to help as much.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/778012-potential-muscle-gain-lifting-and-metabolism-improvement
Now eventually if you keep eating the same calorie level in that case, your LBM will go up, your BMR will go up, your TDEE will go up, and a small deficit will eventually exist. A pound of muscle mass is about 6 cal/lb a day compared to 2 cal/lb for fat. So for each lb of muscle mass gained and fat mass lost, you'll burn an extra 4 cal a day. Ya, not much. Using it though obviously will burn more though.
So if getting extra weight off the knees and supporting that extra weight from the heart is what is needed for a healthier body, then performance gains may need to be secondary focus, and getting weight off quickly but reasonably may be smarter.
Vanity weight though, like 5 lbs, recomp just fine. 15? You'll have to decide if vanity or health at this point.
But ONLY at the start of lifting heavy with extra body fat to lose is the time you can lose it and make performance gains.
That won't happen later after lifting for awhile.
So suggest you go for both, and not just the slow recomp. Take advantage of this only time you can do both.
Light dumbbells and body weight likely became maintenance lifting at some point.
So a smallish calorie burn and not really asking the body to improve at all.
For TDEE estimate in spreadsheet - stay on Simple Setup tab, and Progress tab only.
Look at sample figures in yellow cells, change them to see results change to see what is happening.
Then delete all the example figures in yellow cells and put in your own where you have them.0 -
Hmmmm ok -- my goal weight is listed as 20 lbs below what I'm at now - but I don't think I look my weight (not that there is anything wrong with it) so if I were to be just do a recomp and lose 5-10lbs on the way I think I would be satisfied as well. I definitely have a medium to large body frame - not small. I am in the healthy BMI range for my height so all of this is sheer vanity but I do want to be stronger, not struggle with carrying my own groceries home, etc.
I am just intimidated to start lifting heavy on my own but I've booked 3 intro sessions with a trainer that I'm going to show them the stronglifts program and ask that they do it with me a few times and help me with my form and teaching the lifts. I think that's a fair place to start, just hope they don't discourage me.
My only other thought process is if I were to use a program I found on bodybuilding.com -- I've read a few reviews and people have mentioned it's a great intro to lifting for beginners.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jamie-eason-livefit-trainer.html
Are you familiar at all?0 -
I'd suggest reasonable weight loss goal here at start of lifting then - get both while you can.
Not familiar with that program, but if the myths and gobbledygook spouted in the comments section are an indication of what she teaches - stay far away. The lifts may be good and taught well (probably standard ones anyway, beginner program is simple), it's the extra info shared that could be useless.
I think your idea of trainer helping with what you want to do (isn't that the point after all) is great idea.
If they show the slightest hesitation, be more than willing to comment (if you are sure anyway), that you are pretty sure you could find a trainer willing to take some money to train what you want to do.
It may not be a full blown session and what they want to do - but do they want something for something? Perhaps this trainer is busy and wants time left open for full blown paid sessions. Fine, get another one. Gym usually assigns them in rotation anyway.0
