Hello soechsner09, I am new to this group too and I have not been doing LCHF for long. I am still learning myself. I can tell you that you are at a good place. The people in this group are really helpful and know a lot about LCHF. Welcome.

soechsner09 wrote: »

Hello there. After a lot of research and reading, I decided to give a keto lifestyle a go. I have PCOS and insulin resistance, so I'm looking for a way of eating that will help with both ... Anyhow, I began Saturday. I'm using the keto stix to test for ketones. Sunday morning the stick indicated a "small" amount. Today, it indicates a "large amount". I guess my question is: how do I know when I'm actually "keto adapted"?

P.S. loving it so far! I haven't been hungry or had nasty cravings YET. I'm still waiting to see if I get the dreaded "keto flu" but honestly I had a ton of energy today.

Soe;

The short answer is you DON'T KNOW with the styx. They are not designed to measure "when I'm actually keto adapted..." and they are not capable of doing so.

The only way to know for sure is by measuring your blood ketone levels (which you can do with a home meter).

Please don't take my comments the wrong way (might sound "snippy" - aren't meant that way), but please spend some time reading through the past threads on this group as they will answer many of your questions as they have been asked and answered a number of times.

Absolutely feel free to question anything you aren't clear on though as there are many here who have gone down the road before you and are more than willing to help in any way they can.

Part of what you will learn is that becoming keto adapted (or reaching the stage of Nutritional Ketosis (NK) isn't going to happen overnight (or in 3 days) - it generally requires at least 3 to 4 weeks - IF you religiously maintain a proper macro ratio and stick to it.

For now, if I were you, I would focus on doing that and not worry about the styx at all.

Open your diary so others in the group can review your targets and suggest changes you might make to improve your chances at success.

You didn't say where you are "coming from" (diet wise) and without knowing that (or being able to review you diary) it's tough to make suggestions and as you will see, there really isn't any "one size fits all" approach to LCHF or NK.

For starters, at least give us an idea of where you are starting from (total cals/day, carbs, fats, proteins and BMR/TDEE) - both BEFORE you began LCHF and now.

With that info we can offer some suggestions that might help.

And, WELCOME ABOARD - you've taken the first steps on a course I and others believe you will be very glad that you did.

cindytw wrote: »

I find that when my strip is in the large or purple range I am in a good place regardless of whether it is accurate or not as other say. I am sure blood ketone monitors are better, and more accurate, but are they necessary? I am not sure they are. We older Atkins folks have gotten accustomed to living life without such precise data and it's still totally do-able. Follow your low carb plan, use the sticks as a general guide, and hopefully it will all come together for you. If you REALLY are hung up on your ketone levels, you can get the monitor.

Cindy;

"Do-able"....yes, but,
the OP's question was "...how do I ACTUALLY know if.....?

Are you suggesting that since she is seeing "...a large amount..." after 3 days she is adapted and that's "good enough"?

Or that "We older Atkins folks..." who are showing "purple levels" after having been (seemingly) adapted for an extended period of time, might not be being deceived by those results (since one fully adapted really should be showing little to no "expelled" ketones), or that hydration levels aren't rendering the color scale useless?

I absolutely agree that measuring blood levels isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary for everybody - UNLESS they actually DO want to know, "actually" and "for sure".

For those that do - they ARE.

For those using LCHF with no intention of achieving and maintaining NK, I'd agree that judging by the "common" traits probably is "good enough" and testing isn't required. For those (like the OP) who are looking to NK though, "assuming" just isn't good enough.

"Assuming", especially when the assumption is based on information which is well documented to be virtually useless is....well, we all know the "assume" riddle.

kdali - fat bombs! I'm eating lemon coconut ones right now from here: http://untilthethinladysings.blogspot.com/2012/05/lemon-coconut-energy-bombs.html

metta4 wrote: »

I really appreciate the friendly and articulate responses in this thread, and from what I've seen so far in this group overall.

Met:

It really is a GREAT group of folks.

We certainly disagree on "some" of the details but that we "can" disagree without being disagreeable, AND, that differences of opinion are "usually" based on actual fact (rather than dogma) is what separates this group from what you have probably observed in many (most?) of the MFP forums and groups in what many (affectionately) refer to as the "swamp". <G>

Welcome aboard and looking forward to your participation.

Twibbly wrote: »

kdali - fat bombs! I'm eating lemon coconut ones right now from here: http://untilthethinladysings.blogspot.com/2012/05/lemon-coconut-energy-bombs.html

I second the fat bombs. And they aren't all sweet. I know some people make bacon fat bombs.

Hi,
Welcome and good luck.
I agree with frob23. Assume 4 weeks. I have been at this for a while (4 months or so), read and researched extensively and still don't entirely understand what keto adapted means... so don't feel bad.
The idea is just really to allow your body enough time in ketosis to get all the necessary processes in place to efficiently use fat as energy. The level of adaptation may vary from person to person and since hormones play a major role women can have a harder time of it. Just be patient. Being "keto adapted" will eventually happen as long as you stay in ketosis. It doesn't really change anything to the diet you should eat unless you are getting there to switch to a TKD. Most of us are not that advanced (no bodybuilding for a long time).

Good luck and keep at it.

middleagedmeh wrote: »

Hi,
Welcome and good luck.
I agree with frob23. Assume 4 weeks. I have been at this for a while (4 months or so), read and researched extensively and still don't entirely understand what keto adapted means... so don't feel bad.
The idea is just really to allow your body enough time in ketosis to get all the necessary processes in place to efficiently use fat as energy. The level of adaptation may vary from person to person and since hormones play a major role women can have a harder time of it. Just be patient. Being "keto adapted" will eventually happen as long as you stay in ketosis. It doesn't really change anything to the diet you should eat unless you are getting there to switch to a TKD. Most of us are not that advanced (no bodybuilding for a long time).

Good luck and keep at it.

Mid;

Actually you DO have a very good "understanding" of what NK "means".

If you leave out the "....in ketosis to..." part (only because "in ketosis" is so often misused and confusing) the rest of it is right on the money.

"...allow your body enough time to get all the necessary processes in place to (switch to, or) use FAT as (the preferred/primary) energy source."

"Ketosis" by definition occurs WHEN the "switch to" has taken place.

Yes it's semantics (some would say nit-picky), and yes it takes time (as you and others have stated) but the period leading up to the switch (during which ketones are being produced, but not in sufficient quantities or yet firmly enough established to initiate the switch) is NOT "in ketosis".

It might be more accurately be labeled "pre-k", or "mild-k", or "approaching-k", but randomly throwing around the term "in ketosis" (not you specifically - in general), prior to the switch, is simply incorrect, confusing, and misleading.

If it makes people "feel better" to say "I'm in ketosis" prior to actually being fully adapted, that's fine (I guess), but then just about EVERY person on the planet could make that claim shortly after birth or pretty much every morning when they wake up (since the body has consumed most or all of the carb stores and has begun the process to produce ketones, initiate ketogenesis, gluconeogenesis, and give the body what it requires as glycogen and glucose levels decline while a simultaneous increased demand for ATP ramps up.
(Which, BTW, is one reason that styx might show more "purple" in the morning)

So too might all those who engage in a 24 hour "fast" (intentionally or not).

middleagedmeh wrote: »

Correct. We are in agreement on the misuse of the word and the importance of semantics. I think the issue sometimes is that people like you and I are so excited about the science that we forget not everybody is as enthusiastic about chemistry and biology as we are.
My wife for example still thinks it too complicated because I filled her head with terms and she sees me using a food scale and math with formulas in spreadsheets to do what I do.
There are perfectly successful people in these forums from whom I learned a whole lot who have little understand of OH bonds or how Bhydroxybuterate crosses the blood brain barrier. But I am an engineer and a nerd and these things are essential. I have learned being married to an artistic type that they scare some people away. I want to simplify things as much as possible without over simplifying if that makes sense.

Mid;

Can't argue with a word you've said although we may differ somewhat on the relative emphasis we each place on "science" vs. "semantics".

My experience with my bride was similar - although she's not what I would describe as art-centric. (Retired, 40 year, primary grades, teacher). "Old school" values, obsessed with grammar, (misuse of) language, and semantics. She truly loved every single one of her "kiddos" over the years and every minute spent in the classroom - EXCEPT the "arts and crafts".

But, like your wife, in the beginning her eyes pretty much glazed over at the "science" of LCHF. Eventually either her "intellectual curiosity" took over, OR, I just beat her into submission (not sure which).

Coincidentally, while watching one of the morning "talking head news" shows, they had a Doc on (peddling his "diet/obesity/T2D" book).

There is no polite way to say it - the level of flat out ignorance (on both sides of the table) was stunning. The Doc was "stuck" in a 1980 understanding of nutrition and both he and the talking heads had not a clue of what has occurred in the field over the last 20-30 years.

It literally felt like a 1st grade classroom discussion (and at the same level of intellect).

The Doc made a point of his embracement of the KISS principle and the result was predictable - "simple" but factually incorrect on virtually every point.

Is there any question why such a significant portion of the population remains "clueless" when their primary source of knowledge is delivered in 1 minute "segments" between commercials?

Yes, it's "simple" and as more and more come to accept 140 character "twits" as their preferred mode of communication, understandable - but without a willingness to "dig in" to the detail, hardly enlightening or providing a base on which to formulate an intelligent opinion.

I "git" the "science is not my thing" part - but will never understand the penchant for "just spoon me, I don't need the detail/KISS".

That groups/forums like this exist, is (IMO) the "saving grace" - an assemblage of folks interested in learning, sharing knowledge, subjecting themselves to questioning the conventional "wisdom" - even if it means an occasional trip down the rabbit hole of "science".

I recognize that I'm preaching to the choir but at the same time, privileged to be able to "hang out" with a group of like-minded individuals willing to expand their horizons, question that which others are willing to blindly accept, and even (occasionally) venture into arenas in which they (we) might not find particularly "comfortable".

As much as I agree with your aim of,
"I want to simplify things as much as possible without over simplifying if that makes sense."

(and yes it does make sense) - I'm just not sure it's possible to ever reach that "perfect" balance.

Isn't "keto-adapted" when you are short on time and consider 2tbsp of butter with a dash of salt a decent snack?

When i said, "yay, keto people"...I meant people who actually knew what keto was about and so far have seemed to be polite folks without anger management issues. Kudos!

What books are you guys reading/using for advice? I just finished Keto Clarity.

DAM5412 wrote: »

Welcome to the keto life and group, Soechsner09 and Kdali07. I started trying low carb in September and have found the Keto and Low Carber Daily Forum invaluable in learning about the lifestyle.

<snip>

I am one of those people who actually like the ketostix...sorry DeansDad101...Part of that is because as I continue to learn, I continue to falter. For the first 4-5 weeks, I was doing really well at hitting my macros and getting through the keto flu each week, however, almost every weekend, I was knocking myself out. So, pretty much, each Sunday I was looking at that beige patch on those devious little stix and making myself look at where I went off plan and working really hard not too make the same mistakes twice. I've been successful at times, and not so much at others. But the stix have helped me with getting back on track. Because even though I log religiously, I don't feel confident with the accuracy of the macros in many items. Yes, I cross reference and I am learning to identify when something looks off, but the key is that I am learning and the stix help me. They reconfirm at times what I already know and they give me a nice boost of motivation when I see that pink, then purple color after a few days.

<snip>

As far as Keto adaption and NK, I am looking forward to hitting that stage, eventually. At that point, I may invest in the blood or breath analyzer...honestly, probably the breath one, as part of the reason I started down this path was to stave off the family history of Diabetes and insulin dependence, and not have to prick my finger daily. But, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it!!



Best of luck to both of you. I think the key here is to yes, ask and take advice from others with experience, but also, pay attention to your body, your preferences and your lifestyle. You know what is best for you, and you can control it. Just be patient with yourself and supportive of your goals. You will get there.

Dam;

Absolute NOTHING to be "sorry" about!

If it "works" for you (as it obviously has, at least in the "motivational" sense) - I'll be the FIRST to say, "go for it".

My objection(s) are based solely on the fact that (for some) it provides "info" that is highly suspect at best, and just flat out wrong at worst. Using it as you are makes perfect sense - using it to "confirm" either that one is "in ketosis" or maintaining a level of blood ketone bodies sufficient to enter NK/FA, does not (make sense).

When (if) you get to the point of deciding between the meter (blood) or ketonix (breath), I'd really encourage you to consider the meter if you are limited to one or the other.

I have (and use) both and, ideally, that's really the "best" solution (IMO) since each has advantages/disadvantages.

If you (or others), haven't already this thread discusses the reasons "why?"

tinyurl.com/pwqfbmn

"Sticking" myself daily was a (big) concern of mine as well - I just don't "do" needles and wasn't sure if I could bring myself to intentionally inflicting pain but it really isn't that bad. Once you get the "hang" of it (and with the proper equipment) it's "almost" entirely painless.

Your concluding "advice" to the Soe & Kda is possibly the "best" one can offer - not just to them but to everyone.

kdali07 wrote: »

I think I got the usefulness of keto sticks from keto clarity...the old and new atkins were not clear about how they can be used:
Use when starting keto and when falling off the wagon....but after a while you become keto adapted they will no longer change color. Beige will be a great sign so long as you stayed on point! Sounds cheaper and easier than checking my blood or breath (which is yuck right now....yay me!).
Anyway, I was surprised the sticks have not been thought of in that manner.

I love the term "information shame"! That is exactly what it is! Sadly, the people arguing their views are physiologically dead wrong much of the time. I'm all about information sharing (thank you for the links, DAM5, I will check those out next week) and here's one for you:
http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/

My homemade bulletproof mocha is what I look forward to most days...do any of you have a love for something specific?

That's mine, too. I don't care about sweets. I get my sweet in my morning creamy chocolate coconut oil caffeine rush and I'm good. I'm satisfied with that.