If I am trying to fix what I now am pretty sure is surpressed metabolism, do I STOP doing cardio?
ladybug77707
Posts: 39
As a follow-up to my earlier thread, I am now trying to figure out where I need to fall on the calorie intake given what I have learned. Until I have my BF measured (which I have contacted the one place in my area that has the BodPod and am waiting to hear back), I can't be 100% sure that what I am dealing with is a suppressed metabolism, but given other variables I think it is. Sooo....... here are my questions:
The Scooby site gives me a BRM of 1297 and TDEE of 1556 (sedentary level). 15% is 1298 which is already more than what I am eating to maintain 130 (which I have been eating 1200 for probably a year in order to maintain, which is likely what got me into this situation). So if I go up every two weeks by 100 calories, with a goal of 1300 calories for the next two weeks,
1. Do I NOT do any cardio since it will put me in a bigger deficit and slow my goal of fixing my suppressed metabolism?
2. If I DO continue cardio, do I eat back those calories if I am trying to re-set my metabolism or just count on that to be a quicker reduction of back to 124 lbs?
3. I know I am NOT to stop doing my strength training which I do 2x a week (following that study that was done and shared with me earlier which is super-similar to my situation - the subject in that study also did 2x week strength training)
I guess I need to know what to do about the cardio and if I do continue it, how to factor it in (or not) to my calorie equation to get my metabolism back up to normal functioning.
The Scooby site gives me a BRM of 1297 and TDEE of 1556 (sedentary level). 15% is 1298 which is already more than what I am eating to maintain 130 (which I have been eating 1200 for probably a year in order to maintain, which is likely what got me into this situation). So if I go up every two weeks by 100 calories, with a goal of 1300 calories for the next two weeks,
1. Do I NOT do any cardio since it will put me in a bigger deficit and slow my goal of fixing my suppressed metabolism?
2. If I DO continue cardio, do I eat back those calories if I am trying to re-set my metabolism or just count on that to be a quicker reduction of back to 124 lbs?
3. I know I am NOT to stop doing my strength training which I do 2x a week (following that study that was done and shared with me earlier which is super-similar to my situation - the subject in that study also did 2x week strength training)
I guess I need to know what to do about the cardio and if I do continue it, how to factor it in (or not) to my calorie equation to get my metabolism back up to normal functioning.
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If you are strength training 2x a week then you aren't sedentary so your TDEE is wrong already. If you do any cardio (and I would do a minimum of 30 minutes x 3 days a week) you would refigure your TDEE to calculate those minutes into it. Remember, TDEE counts all activity not just exercise, so unless you are sitting on your bum all day long and doing jack, you are already starting at lightly active and need to add exercise to that.0
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And if you are trying to reset your metabolism you do NOT want any deficit. You need to eat at the correct TDEE for at least 8-12 weeks.
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OK - so the TDEE includes ALL activity. I will go back and recalculate. Would it be better to do NO cardio, then? My thought is that it is putting additional stress on the suppressed metabolism? It isn't like I would get out of shape in 8-12 weeks, especially if I stuck with the strength training, right? Other than illness, I have not missed working out 3-5 times a week in 20-something years, so would eliminating cardio for those 8-12 weeks actually help?0
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Question about Scooby.....I went back and recalculated with "Light exercise", but the TDEE is the same every day for ALL days- yet the category I selected was for exercising 1-3 hours of light exercise a week. How could the TDEE be the same for ALL 7 days? Wouldn't it mean that if I was exercising for 3 days, that the calculated TDEE would be correct for those 3 days, but over-inflated for the others??0
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Correct observation, but wrong method of calculation.
TDEE tables are taking that rough estimate of exercise per week, dividing it back out to daily method.
So indeed, on non-exercise days, TDEE is literally less, on exercise days, TDEE is literally more. It balances out though - if you selected the correct level.
MFP method is literally attempting the TDEE daily method. You estimate daily activity burn with no exercise accounted for.
When you exercise, you log it, and daily burn goes up, therefore eating goal goes up, deficit or maintenance.
Do the math though, and it usually ends up about the same.
TDEE deficit method just allows a daily goal that you can plan on easily, and meet. And since it's based on planned exercise - better do it.
MFP method needs a best estimate of exercise, and increasing daily goal sometimes you need to plan to meet. And since you only account for exercise when done, not terrible if you miss it, but you have to eat less too.
You aren't doing that much cardio you need to worry about it.
Keep it up, since the TDEE estimate includes it.
Just don't do intense cardio on muscles that you just lifted with the day before. Nothing better to kill the repair process from a good lifting workout than put another heavy load on the same muscles in the 24-36 hr recovery period.
See, your OP was still looking at the method of using MFP incorrectly, but you knew what you were doing. Eating at level with no exercise accounted for, and let exercise create even more deficit.
I'm kind of shocked you've been working out that much and thought you were sedentary.
Were you really eating that low and doing all that exercise then?
Ya, you got a jacked up metabolism, might want to think about why you thought starting with a deficit would be useful. Fear?0 -
Thank you, Heybales. That explanation makes TOTAL sense. It just didn't make sense to me, but your explanation is perfect. Well, I have cut my workouts to 4 x cardio 20 minutes high intensity, with 2 x weights a week. I guess compared to what I *used* to do (40 minutes 4x a week), it is sedentary, and it did say 1-3 hours was 'light', so I figured it was in one of those two categories.
WHY did I think about starting with a deficit?? DESPERATION. No matter what I do, it keeps gradually creeping up
((( SO, just to be clear, should I still take what I am currently eating (1200) and add 100 every week or two until I get to the TDEE AND NOT stop the 4x 20 min cardio and 2x weights? I will still be at a deficit because I am under TDEE, but the deficit will be gradually reduced. Am I still good with that approach vs. just going all out and trying to have no deficit at all by beginning eating the TDEE?? Want to make sure, but I think that's what I am surmising is the best strategy. I knew something had to be wrong with my metabolism for it to be THAT low with all that I am doing. 0 -
You are at least light for your TDEE (or higher if you do anything on your feet during the day outside of your exercise). And I would go up gradually to TDEE - add 100 to 200 calories every week. Some people go straight to it but a lot do it gradually. I added 200 to mine which I thought was easy and worked well (yay for more eating!).0
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I am shooting for 1300 every day this week and for an additional week, then will try to go up to 1400 per day starting on the 22nd and do that until the end of the month. HOw do you know when you can successfully go up, mymodern?? When you stop showing increases on the scale?? Or you just go up in calories regardless? I need to go back and re-read 'what to expect' again. I know I am going to panic when I start coming 1400 and start gaining..............0
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you may not gain much if at all, or just water weight. I am going up in calories too and so far havnt gained at all. Although I believe that's because I have sooo much extra energy now that im eating more food that I am burning a ton more calories just fidgeting and moving around all the time.0
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leanne0627 wrote: »you may not gain much if at all, or just water weight. I am going up in calories too and so far havnt gained at all. Although I believe that's because I have sooo much extra energy now that im eating more food that I am burning a ton more calories just fidgeting and moving around all the time.
Perfect example of how daily burn gets suppressed, and recovers.
That is exactly the first thing the body does to conserve calories for more important metabolism functions, reduce daily activity.
I think this is why some people eat 200 more, and then start losing weight. Body unstressed enough to allow daily increase to activity.
But usually they stop there.
How much better to keep going up, see how much you can burn in total.
Interesting how eating 200-400 more could cause body to burn an extra 200-800 more in calories.
Great job, keep it up.0 -
ladybug77707 wrote: »Thank you, Heybales. That explanation makes TOTAL sense. It just didn't make sense to me, but your explanation is perfect. Well, I have cut my workouts to 4 x cardio 20 minutes high intensity, with 2 x weights a week. I guess compared to what I *used* to do (40 minutes 4x a week), it is sedentary, and it did say 1-3 hours was 'light', so I figured it was in one of those two categories.
WHY did I think about starting with a deficit?? DESPERATION. No matter what I do, it keeps gradually creeping up((( SO, just to be clear, should I still take what I am currently eating (1200) and add 100 every week or two until I get to the TDEE AND NOT stop the 4x 20 min cardio and 2x weights? I will still be at a deficit because I am under TDEE, but the deficit will be gradually reduced. Am I still good with that approach vs. just going all out and trying to have no deficit at all by beginning eating the TDEE?? Want to make sure, but I think that's what I am surmising is the best strategy. I knew something had to be wrong with my metabolism for it to be THAT low with all that I am doing.
See, I think it's interesting what you are still calling Sedentary.
It is NOT a description compared to what YOU were doing before. It is a flat out description that anyone could compare their current routine to.
I had 40 hrs or over of training monthly through summer until Oct. Nov even with race (and sickness) was only 12 hrs. Was that sedentary?
Do you have a desk job/commute of 45 hrs weekly with no kids or pets keeping you active in evenings and weekends?
That is sedentary.
You may not be doing as much exercise as before, but that's a far cry from sedentary.
I only mention this because I think it speaks to state of mind, and ability to carry through with this - which I think you appear too fearful already. You appear to recognize this, don't let it cause you to stumble on the road to the destination.
Why do you think you should stop working out?
With your system suppressed, and every increase is eating above literal TDEE for some short period of time - what better time to be working out, the body will know exactly what to do with extra calories.
And just to be clear, you have not been losing weight at current eating level and whatever level of activity you were doing, right?
You are/were eating at TDEE. That's what TDEE means, maintenance, neither gaining nor losing weight.
That's what should be so scary, that eating that little and doing that much, that's all you got to eat to maintain. Get sick, get injured, go on vacation and don't workout so much - now how little must you eat to maintain? Yikes.
But that is on a suppressed system. Your current eating level is your suppressed TDEE.
You are attempting to slowly make your way up to your potential TDEE - what your body could burn if healthy.
And as others have mentioned - each small increase of calories and no weight gain, or minor water weight, is an increase in suppressed TDEE. The water weight actually increases metabolism too.
To your workout routine, to think about removing stress.
Are you doing a high intensity cardio because you heard it was better for fat loss than other cardio?
That's true, because it gets closer to mimicking an actual lifting workout. All out effort, followed by short rest, repeat. Sound familiar - is that intervals or lifting I'm describing.
Unless you have some sport you are training for, and can do strength training which you do, skip the HIIT, and give the time to lifting.
Oh, 5-10 min easy cardio warmup is fine before lifting.
If you still like the interval feeling, do it right after lifting.
Because it is like lifting, if it's done right, it needs a rest day too following it, just like lifting does. And far too many combine all these fat-burning workouts they hear about with no consideration for the bad effects.
Would you lift with same muscles day after day? Hopefully not.
The problem is you kill the repair process if same muscles. Do that, body is unrecovered and stressed, and therefore doesn't improve, eventually may not even repair back to original state.
So then you start having workout after workout with unrecovered body, never really being able to push hard enough for body to need to improve, but hard enough that it's stressful.
Sadly while in that state you can't tell, because the feeling that you are pushing hard is the same between good or bad workout. The difference is what can actually be accomplished, like weight on the bar.
So just look at your routine, if you can accomplish 3 x weekly lifting workouts, that would be better for asking body to improve. Walk on the rest days, or cardio with different muscles. Or do cardio right after lifting if you must.
And best lifting for you would be circuit training, because it's high calorie burn to keep TDEE high, but requires muscles to improve.
My profile page, tad down from top, has link for that best fat-burning strength training workout from reliable source.
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And always do the math with gains or losses, to confirm in your mind what they can and cannot be.
If you gain 1 lb in first week (or couple of days) merely eating 100 more, that would imply you are eating 500 over current TDEE for 7 days in a row.
But you only started eating 100 more for a few days, so how could that be possible?
Because it's water weight, not fat. 3500 cal per lb of fat is the only time that math applies.
To fast and it obviously isn't fat.
Same as the initial big drop everyone gets when they start a diet.
4-5 lbs the first week. Yay, look at all the fat I dropped. Really?
5 x 3500 / 7 days = 2500 calories eaten less than you burned, and you ate 1200 perhaps.
Really think you burned 3700 calories each and every day to make that all be fat? Highly unlikely.
Sadly with muscle lost only providing 600 cal per lb, it's easier to lose a lb of muscle than fat.0 -
Do you have a desk job/commute of 45 hrs weekly with no kids or pets keeping you active in evenings and weekends?
That is sedentary.
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Yes, I do have a sedentary job (about 3 days in the office, the other 2 out in the field working in the community), but do have kids that keep me busy on the weekends.
"That's what should be so scary, that eating that little and doing that much, that's all you got to eat to maintain. Get sick, get injured, go on vacation and don't workout so much - now how little must you eat to maintain? Yikes."
YES, I am fearful. And I am fearful of what you say. That I can eat so little and do so much and still gain. I am very scared about that! NEVER had a problem until this last year. So yes, it scares me because I don't know WHY it got the way it is and it scares me that it might not revert back to what it used to be(( I am super scared.
Scared is why I think about cutting back on the exercise. Because I read about the exercise further suppressing the metabolism even further. NOt enough food + exercising anyway = shutdown of metabolism. The thing I *don't* want. So I thought THAT might be the answer. I quit everything for a while (though probably not enough to make a difference - about 2 weeks) when I didn't see anything changing after quitting, even though logic tells me I am not going to see any changes in two weeks. It just got frustrating to NOT work out while still seeing no changes (I actually LIKE working out). I have been on the HITT about 3 weeks now combined with 2x a week on the weights and it probably hasn't been long enough to tell about that, but what you are saying makes sense about the recovery part of it. I will look at that link you mentioned for a good strength training workout that would work for what I am doing - and eliminate the cardio again for a while - correct?
"You are/were eating at TDEE. That's what TDEE means, maintenance, neither gaining nor losing weight."
OK - I am using EXPECTED TDEE as a goal to reach. What I SHOULD be expending daily per the calculators, as opposed to what I am actually doing to maintain. Maybe I used that term incorrectly, it seems? My goal is to get up to the TDEE that was done with the calculator, which is what you called the 'potential TDEE', so I get the difference now. Thank you for that!
Everything you say about doing the math makes PERFECT sense. It does. Can you tell me, however, what you consider "minor" water weight?
Also, heybales, I went back to the doctor today for my follow-up appointment to further discuss the potential thyroid problem. She continues to say that I am in the range for overall thyroid as well as the T3 and T4, but in the low-end of the range for all. Even more so with this recent test which was 6 months from the initial reading. She says that she will put me on thyroid meds if I want to do it. Not just for the weight, but other symptoms I am having that are common in hypothyroidism. My question for you is..........I don't know which came first............hypothyroid developed because of unknown reasons which is causing the weight issues that can only be fixed by medication or reduced calories causing hypothyroid which caused the weight issues and could eventually be self-correcting if I am able to somehow get the eating issues fixed. If my thyroid is messed up, can I 'fix' it by fixing the eating/metabolism, or am I going to constantly be battling this because only medication can fix the thyroid problem? I don't feel like I am doing a very good job with explaining this. Do you even remotely get my question, lol?? I would like to hear what you think
)) If I am going through all of these changes with eating and exercise, will it even make a difference if it is a thyroid issue I am dealing with, or would making all of those changes potentially fix the thyroid. Maybe that's a better way of asking ))
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Question understood.
You have a thyroid hormone imbalance. Unlike those that have little to NO hormones produced at all that causes their issues.
While that extreme effect could be caused by badly undereating eventually, actually yo-yo dieting and stressing it up and down, that's rare. Now it might be a combo of factors, with undereating making it happen sooner or worse.
What you got is more common, just at or over the line for bad numbers, easily caused by undereating. Now it could be something else that will make it worse over the next 6 months - but undereating ain't going to help it either.
Since there are side effects to every medicine, and food is itself almost a medicine because of the responses it can cause in the body - which would you prefer?
I'd suggest take the food.
The amount of potential time to recover could be so much shorter than going back and forth with tests and changing Rx amounts and retesting to get them just right, all the time with who knows what side effects you'll experience.
Just as people have caused their own pre-diabetes, and fixed it with better diet and exercise.
Ok, activity descriptions is what we are dealing with here, and you are talking job descriptions actually, that's the confusion. Sedentary desk job is hardly a sedentary activity level in all cases, could be, and could be very different.
And actually, even in your case, is that 40% of your time in community still sitting at desk? If not, that's not even a sedentary desk job except when you happen to be behind the desk. That would like saying the warehouse manager has a sedentary desk job for the 30 min daily he has to sit behind the desk for stuff, but walking the warehouse otherwise. That ain't sedentary job either.
So cutting back on exercise is only going to help if you refuse to raise the eating level.
It's doing the exact same thing, right?
And might reread what I said, I didn't say stop doing cardio.
So if major change was this year, might examine what changed around the time you noticed the difference. Prior to change, did you always eat so little with that level of exercise, or what was different if anything you can remember?
And just so you know, those 5 level TDEE calcs are obviously very rough. Is 3 hrs of walking the same as 3 hrs of running as 3 hrs of lifting?
Not at all. So that is your estimated potential TDEE, you at least want to get up to that, and may end up being more since you really need to put 2 levels together because your exercise is Lightly Active, and your work/daily life is more than Lightly Active.
But Moderate is at least a place to start.
If you want best estimate BMR based on BF%, and TDEE, and activity level, then use the spreadsheet on my profile page.
Minor water weight can be 3-5 lbs easy, that's the difference between a low sodium low carb day prior to weigh-in, compared to high sodium higher carb day.
That's why valid weigh-in days is so important. If you want daily weigh-ins to tell a story - then you need 2 months worth of noisy data to see a good trend line.
With valid weigh-in days, 1 month can do it.0 -
Thank you sooooo much, heybales! I read this quickly before going to work but want to read it several more times where I can actually think about it and absorb it. This whole thing has been so difficult to figure out, and I am SO grateful for you and those on these boards who have helped me navigate through and make some sense of it!)))))))) I WILL be re-reading this several times. MUCH, much appreciated! Hope you have a great day ) 0
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heybales, I have read through this several times and think I have a pretty good understanding of everything. Including your explanation about the thyroid. You are right, I am NOT dealing with that kind of situation. The doctor wrote me a prescription for the thyroid meds and said I could fill it and decide NOT to take it if I wanted. Which is what I am going to do. I am going to give this a few more months and am shooting for 1400 the next two weeks (I have been at 1300 this week), and then will try for 1500 and see what happens. I thought the "minor" weight gain would be less than a pound and freaked out when it was two pounds and went back to 1200. Thank you for clarifying otherwise. This week I have been 1300 all week and holding steady. So this is my plan, along with modifying the exercise instead of giving it up. I keep going back to that study that you shared and am going to continue to follow what that lady did as close to the letter as possible. Our cases sounded SO similar! Your help has been invaluable! I am sure I will be posting updates again) 0
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