Enough training time for marathon?
MountainMaggie
Posts: 104 Member
So I've run over 13 miles (15 brutal, mountainous trail miles for the longest) 3 times since the new year, and I'm eyeballing a paved, flat, coastal marathon in NC on March 28. It's 7 weeks away. First full marathon. I am not trying to qualify for Boston, or even finish in close to 4 hours. Is this enough time? Like, seriously, 5 hours is good enough. I'm in a time crunch for training, as I've been gifted with a work haitus till (probably) April. Also, I feel very comfy running in NC, as I have run everywhere there from Boone to Atlantic Beach. It feels right. Advice from people with a 26.2 sticker on their car please?
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MountainMaggie wrote: »Advice from people with a 26.2 sticker on their car please?
That would be me lol! Given the same amount of information you have provided, I think you'd probably be okay to finish a full given you complete a 2-4 more runs at 14-18 miles- however I would do these on the ROAD because your race is on the road. Train under the same conditions you are racing in. "Trail" does not mean "harder". It's just different. Your body needs to be ready for 4-6 hours of PAVEMENT pounding.
It really depends more on your background. When was your first 1/2? How many years have you been running? How many miles a week do you run?
Personal experience:
- I never ran over 13 miles before racing my first 30k (18.65 miles). Most of my "long runs were 8-9 miles. I ran 13 once.
- before my first marathon (over a year after my 30k), I ran a 14, 16, and 19 miler that is ALL for runs over 9 miles. It was a horror story. I was miserable. But I finished 4:10
-most of my marathons where I've felt "good"/no wall I do like 1 18-21 miler, 3 15.5-17 milers and maybe 2-3 13-14.
Essentially 6 runs over 13.
The questions you really need to ask yourself are:
1- why have you suddenly have this urge to run 26.2 miles? Is it 100% what YOU want?
2- do YOU believe your training is adequate? WILL you prepare yourself & commit the next 4 weeks?
:-)
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Good advice. And yes, yes I will, especially if I sign up for something. My first half was in Sept. I feel comfy with 15 miles, so I think 7 weeks (imagining I might only have 5 in case of unforseen illness or mild injury) is doable.
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Oh, and it is not a sudden urge. It's been brewing for at least a year, it's just a matter of deciding when to take that final step (or several thousand steps, as it were).0
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MountainMaggie wrote: »Oh, and it is not a sudden urge. It's been brewing for at least a year, it's just a matter of deciding when to take that final step (or several thousand steps, as it were).
Good to hear. If you have the will, you will find a way :-) it's the most powerful tool in running!
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I wouldn't do it. If you first half was just this past September, then your body isn't going to be prepared for the race or the training. A marathon is not two half marathons. It's a whole lot harder than that. It takes years for most mortals to develop the fitness to even be prepared to train for their first marathon. Then, they usually embark on a 16 week training program that leaves them exhausted by the time race day rolls around. Then, they run strong for the first 18 miles before hitting the wall and shuffling home the rest of the way in excruciating pain. That is what I see happening if you attempt to train for your first full marathon in 7 weeks this early in your distance career.0
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I second what Crason said about a marathon being much more than just 2 half marathons. Physiologically, things happen to your body after 3 solid hours of running that you may not have experienced before. Regardless of your training and base, the last 6 or so miles of a marathon are notoriously draining, even for seasoned runners. I will not tell you not to do it or that you shouldn't try, but I would caution you to do some research and understand exactly what you should expect. It will probably be more difficult than you realize, so as long as you are honest about your expectations, then I would say go for it. The feeling of accomplishment when you cross that finish line...it makes it all worth it.0
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I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure many people have undertaken a marathon with less than ideal levels of preparation and that many of those have gotten out the other side without injury.......but you probably acknowledge that this approach will certainly increase the odds of injury. I'd imagine also that the lack of thorough preparation will increase the odds of a pretty miserable second half for you.
It was a real surprise to me how much more difficult running 20 miles in training was than running 17 or 18 miles. It was tough going and took some time to recover from. I did 3 20 mile runs in the run up to my first marathon last October and physically and mentally I think that prepared me well for the race.
Just a point to think about - 7 weeks until race day mean 4 weeks until most conventional plans would have you begin your taper, ok maybe you do a 2 week taper, that gives you 5 weeks to elevate your endurance and all the other physiological changes needed. It's doable but I have to think it's going to bring a high chance of injury.
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It was a real surprise to me how much more difficult running 20 miles in training was than running 17 or 18 miles. It was tough going and took some time to recover from. I did 3 20 mile runs in the run up to my first marathon last October and physically and mentally I think that prepared me well for the race.
I just finished my 1st of (3) 20 mile runs for my training plan Sunday and you hit this on the head. I'm also did 10 on Saturday so the legs were a little tired to start with. The first 18 miles I cruised through easily hitting 9:45-9:50 pace, the last 2 miles slowed almost 30 sec a mile.
A good taper for training is 2-3 weeks so with only 7 weeks you're looking at only 4-5 weeks of buildup. I'm going to agree with Carson on this one, your last 8 miles or so with that short of a buildup are going to suck something fierce.0 -
Nope. I've been following your running for a while. You're making some seriously awesome progress, but I'd table this at least until the fall race season. As a been there done that guy who had an awesome HM and bombed his first full, I will say that yes, you will finish, but I don't think there is enough time for you to fully dedicate to having a good experience your first time around - note how I said "experience" and not "finishing time."0
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I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure many people have undertaken a marathon with less than ideal levels of preparation and that many of those have gotten out the other side without injury.......but you probably acknowledge that this approach will certainly increase the odds of injury. I'd imagine also that the lack of thorough preparation will increase the odds of a pretty miserable second half for you.
This, so much this. And then there's the feeling of having an awful second half and walking it in kinda feels like you "cheated." At least that's how I felt, and I had a time that people considered good. It's all relative though.
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SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure many people have undertaken a marathon with less than ideal levels of preparation and that many of those have gotten out the other side without injury.......but you probably acknowledge that this approach will certainly increase the odds of injury. I'd imagine also that the lack of thorough preparation will increase the odds of a pretty miserable second half for you.
This, so much this. And then there's the feeling of having an awful second half and walking it in kinda feels like you "cheated." At least that's how I felt, and I had a time that people considered good. It's all relative though.
Whoa, thought that was just me. OP, I'm gonna have to agree that it largely depends on what your goals are. If you want to walk/jog the full - you can definitely do it. If you want to run the whole thing and have an enjoyable experience, I'd hold off and do a bit more training.
I raced a few half marathons and then took a full 6 months to build up mileage and train for my first full. I was up to mid-fifties weekly mileage, and logged several long runs (a 22, 2-20's, 3-18's) before the event and was STILL not mentally prepared for the full marathon. As Carson mentioned, it's SO much more than simply 2 halves. When I crossed the finish line, I cried - not from pride of finishing, not because I had just BQ'ed (I did), not because my legs were so tired (they were) - but because I was so disappointed in the whole experience. After PR'ing the first half, I lost the mental battle, ended up taking some walking breaks and overall felt bad about the whole thing.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »Then, they run strong for the first 18 miles before hitting the wall and shuffling home the rest of the way in excruciating pain.
Mine wasn't excruciating pain but there was some shuffling home for sure. I missed about 3 long runs in my training to ease up on an old injury that was flaring up. I probably should have cut it to a half but I did the full. I still enjoyed it and learned a good bit.
I didn't have enough long runs under my belt to finish out the race without walking.
I wasn't doing enough long runs on pavement. Changed. I did three 15s this last month on pavement with some sizeable hills.
I should have been running the day before my long run to simulate end race conditions. I did 17 this last weekend and ran 6 the day before. It wasn't exactly the same as a race but you're starting to get the feel of it after about 14 - 15 miles. Great mental and physical preparation.
13 miles doesn't really count as a long run. I know, technically it does but there's so much energy available the first 13 miles that I wouldn't quantify that as a marathon specific long run. I did the first half of the race in 2:03 and it felt easy peasy. I was holding back quite a bit I thought. The second half, not so easy after about mile 20.
Race it if you want. It's going to be tough. Whether or not you like it is up to what you're expecting I suppose.0 -
I appreciate all your input and experiences. But if people who have never run a half have plans that call for a half 8 weeks before their full, and I'm already comfortable at 15, I don't see how 7 weeks would be inadequate. But I'll listen to my body. I'm very good at listening to my body. But If I don't feel comfy at 20 miles in 2-3 weeks, then I can make new plans. I already signed up, but I insured my registration in case injury or life happens.0
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MountainMaggie wrote: »I appreciate all your input and experiences. But if people who have never run a half have plans that call for a half 8 weeks before their full, and I'm already comfortable at 15, I don't see how 7 weeks would be inadequate.
1. People who have never run a half, shouldn't be training for a full
2. Those plans are inadequate to actually prepare someone to run a marathon.
3. There is a big difference between 15 and 26.2 and not just 11.2 miles. It's likely that running 15 miles does not leave you depleted of glycogen. Running 26.2 will.
Anyway, I respect you decision to pursue this and I wish you the best. Please let us know how it goes.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »3. There is a big difference between 15 and 26.2 and not just 11.2 miles. It's likely that running 15 miles does not leave you depleted of glycogen. Running 26.2 will.
Anyway, I respect you decision to pursue this and I wish you the best. Please let us know how it goes.
This is the number one thing that people training for their first marathon usually fail to understand. I'm sure you have heard about it..."Hitting the Wall". It's not something that will usually happen on a 15 mile run, and probably not even on a 20 mile training run, so it will be uncharted territory for most people. As I mentioned above, I would encourage you to do some research on the subject so that you understand what is happening with your body at this point and how to prepare for it. It will help you immensely.
Best of luck!!0 -
lporter229 wrote: »CarsonRuns wrote: »3. There is a big difference between 15 and 26.2 and not just 11.2 miles. It's likely that running 15 miles does not leave you depleted of glycogen. Running 26.2 will.
Anyway, I respect you decision to pursue this and I wish you the best. Please let us know how it goes.
This is the number one thing that people training for their first marathon usually fail to understand. I'm sure you have heard about it..."Hitting the Wall". It's not something that will usually happen on a 15 mile run, and probably not even on a 20 mile training run, so it will be uncharted territory for most people. As I mentioned above, I would encourage you to do some research on the subject so that you understand what is happening with your body at this point and how to prepare for it. It will help you immensely.
Best of luck!!
Right on.
Just wanted to reemphasize what these 2 are saying. I ran my first marathon last March with 2 years of consistent running, 4 half marathons (road & trail), and an 18 week marathon training plan that included three 20 milers under my belt. Miles 20ish-26.2 of that marathon were complete misery. I thought I was going to die. Hell I wanted to die rather than finish. I did manage a respectable (to some but not to me) finish but that wall hit me hard.
Having said that... I did learn a lot from that race. As Carson & others posted to me then and as I have since read in many other books, blogs, and boards, my experience was pretty much the norm for first timers. I hope to take what I learned from that first one and turn it into a more enjoyable 2nd marathon (which is 3 days away... eek!). So I'm not going to tell you what to do. I would rather see you do it with a proper marathon training plan. But as I & may others can attest, even that won't insure avoiding a miserable bonking experience. Barring injuries, I think it's good to get that first one out of the way and learn & build from it.0 -
I kinda think you have to jump in some time. Back in the day, people generally did not run past 18 miles while training for a marathon. It is going to be a new thing no matter how you prepare.
That said, I would just like to ask: What's wrong with the half? The vast majority of people who have done a full will admit that the half is much more fun. You finish, you are spent, but you feel like going out to lunch after!0 -
MountainMaggie wrote: »I appreciate all your input and experiences. But if people who have never run a half have plans that call for a half 8 weeks before their full, and I'm already comfortable at 15, I don't see how 7 weeks would be inadequate. But I'll listen to my body. I'm very good at listening to my body. But If I don't feel comfy at 20 miles in 2-3 weeks, then I can make new plans. I already signed up, but I insured my registration in case injury or life happens.
Do an easy 6 - 7 mile run the day before your 20 mile run and see how it feels. That will put you closer to the actual event than just doing a 20 mile run rested.
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Do an easy 6 - 7 mile run the day before your 20 mile run and see how it feels. That will put you closer to the actual event than just doing a 20 mile run rested.
I do NOT recommend this. If you haven't done this the day before your other long runs, your body won't be prepared for it and you'll be at a huge risk for injury. Also, if 20 miles will take you over 3 hours, you will be doing more damage to your body than it will be able to repair before your next long run. The extra miles the day before are not a good idea.0 -
I agree. The extra miles the day before is a concept that is probably best reserved for advanced/ experienced marathoners.0
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You're correct. I just looked through the Hal Higdon novice plans and the day before is empty in those plans. Fair enough. Nobody needs to get injured.lporter229 wrote: »I agree. The extra miles the day before is a concept that is probably best reserved for advanced/ experienced marathoners.
I was just disappointed at how my 20 mile run went (Great!) vs. how the last few miles of the race felt. I was out ahead of the 4:15 pace group until mile 22. More practice running tired would have been a good thing.
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lporter229 wrote: »I agree. The extra miles the day before is a concept that is probably best reserved for advanced/ experienced marathoners.
You're correct. I just looked through the Hal Higdon novice plans and the day before is empty in those plans. Fair enough. Nobody needs to get injured.lporter229 wrote: »I agree. The extra miles the day before is a concept that is probably best reserved for advanced/ experienced marathoners.
I was just disappointed at how my 20 mile run went (Great!) vs. how the last few miles of the race felt. I was out ahead of the 4:15 pace group until mile 22. More practice running tired would have been a good thing.
So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
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Training2BeFast wrote: »So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
My current, beginner, plan has me on a midweek long or speed session and a moderate distance the day before the LSD run.
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »Training2BeFast wrote: »So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
My current, beginner, plan has me on a midweek long or speed session and a moderate distance the day before the LSD run.
I'm on a 6 runs a week plan. My rest day is Monday and long run day is Saturday... So my long run is actually on my 5th consecutive running day. I usually run 6-7 miles the day before and 6-7 miles the day after.
Like @_Waffle_ said, I think it's great to know what cumulative fatigue feels like.0 -
MountainMaggie wrote: »So I've run over 13 miles (15 brutal, mountainous trail miles for the longest) 3 times since the new year, and I'm eyeballing a paved, flat, coastal marathon in NC on March 28. It's 7 weeks away. First full marathon. I am not trying to qualify for Boston, or even finish in close to 4 hours. Is this enough time? Like, seriously, 5 hours is good enough. I'm in a time crunch for training, as I've been gifted with a work haitus till (probably) April. Also, I feel very comfy running in NC, as I have run everywhere there from Boone to Atlantic Beach. It feels right. Advice from people with a 26.2 sticker on their car please?
Why rush into something you're not adequately trained for and will likely be a bad experience? There are marathons all the time. 7 weeks is not enough time to build to the distance. It's not like doing 2x13.1's. It's so much harder than that. Train appropriately and have a good first marathon.0 -
Training2BeFast wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Training2BeFast wrote: »So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
My current, beginner, plan has me on a midweek long or speed session and a moderate distance the day before the LSD run.
I'm on a 6 runs a week plan. My rest day is Monday and long run day is Saturday... So my long run is actually on my 5th consecutive running day. I usually run 6-7 miles the day before and 6-7 miles the day after.
Like @_Waffle_ said, I think it's great to know what cumulative fatigue feels like.
Before my first marathon I had a rest day on Friday, long run Saturday, rest on Sunday. This time I ran about 6 to 8 miles on Fridays, long run Saturday, rest on Sunday. It made a HUGE difference in how my long run felt. Hopefully it pays off.0 -
Training2BeFast wrote: »
So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
For my last marathon, I did an easy to moderate run before my long run. But for my first marathon, I rarely ran the day before my long run. For my next, I will probably increase the run before my long run to get more of the effect of running on tired legs. I just don't think it's necessary for a first timer.0 -
Training2BeFast wrote: »I'm on a 6 runs a week plan. My rest day is Monday and long run day is Saturday... So my long run is actually on my 5th consecutive running day. I usually run 6-7 miles the day before and 6-7 miles the day after.
Like @_Waffle_ said, I think it's great to know what cumulative fatigue feels like.
Indeed. I've been on four running days and I'm trying to fit in a decent length cycle the day after the LSD which is giving me five consecutive days of training.
I found that model helped me in HM training, just dealing with the psychological effect of training fatigued. So Sunday is active recovery on the bike, Wednesday and Thursday are notional rest days, but I still have commute cycling for both of those.
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Training2BeFast wrote: »So you guys aren't running the day before your long run ?!? Interesting.
I think you already know the answer to that question.
I always run the day before the LSD run. Depending on where it is in the training cycle, it could be as much as 10 miles with some at a faster pace. I seem to recall last marathon training cycle doing 10 miles with 2x1.5 miles at about 6:45 pace the day before a 22.
The day after is sometimes rest, sometimes easy, active recovery running.
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Wow! What an amazing litany of varied advice! I think you're ALL right, and that different things work for different people, and it takes time to learn what works for you. I know now what I should have done differently before my first half, and after my first full, I will certainly see things I could have done differently. It's like childbirth. You can plan all you want, but you never know what it's going to be like till you're in labor, even if you're done it before.
While I don't think waiting till Fall is necessary, I have been called back to work, which adds to any original doubts I may have had, so, I am going run Emerald Isle, which seemed like the absolute most perfect event for me, but just the half.
I would prefer 10-12 weeks, to allow for proper training, as well as any unforseen illness, injury, burn out, or work conflicts. But I might have more time than that, as I am eyeing the Mayor's Midnight Marathon in Anchorage on June 20. It was my dream to run my first half there, but I couldn't swing it. And I have a free place to stay there!
One factor no one mentioned that played into my decision is heat (though perhaps that's where the Fall suggestions came from). As much as prefer summer for everything else I do, cold weather shaves minutes off my mile. I need to work on that. Someone who does 60 hours of manual labor a week in the southern summer sun really ought to be able to run in the same sun.0
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