Ketoisis questions
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Tedebearduff
Posts: 1,155 Member
I'm just going to ask here hoping someone knows.
I'm not interested in this- what I do works for me but my gf was talking about trying a ketogenic diet. She explained you don't have to be in a deficit to lose on ketosis... so I am looking for a link or some information that backs up this claim because it goes against everything I know.
Thanks,
Brad
I'm not interested in this- what I do works for me but my gf was talking about trying a ketogenic diet. She explained you don't have to be in a deficit to lose on ketosis... so I am looking for a link or some information that backs up this claim because it goes against everything I know.
Thanks,
Brad
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Replies
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I think you need to clarify what she's thinking. Because, if you're losing weight, you're at a deficit by definition. You may be able to eat more and maintain a deficit. You may not need to count or consciously control that deficit. And so on, but you'll be in a deficit, if you're losing weight.
I am currently in a deficit. I know this because I am currently losing weight (~0.2 lbs a week). I am eating way more than you'd think I should be able to to have a deficit (about 2,500 when my TDEE calculations say 2,200 is where I should maintain weight). But, the calculations are irrelevant. I must be in a deficit because I am losing weight.0 -
I think you need to clarify what she's thinking. Because, if you're losing weight, you're at a deficit by definition. You may be able to eat more and maintain a deficit. You may not need to count or consciously control that deficit. And so on, but you'll be in a deficit, if you're losing weight.
I am currently in a deficit. I know this because I am currently losing weight (~0.2 lbs a week). I am eating way more than you'd think I should be able to to have a deficit (about 2,500 when my TDEE calculations say 2,200 is where I should maintain weight). But, the calculations are irrelevant. I must be in a deficit because I am losing weight.
No I was clear, her explanation was that "you do not have to be in a deficit in order to lose weight on ketosis ". I said "it goes against science and everything I know about the body, but I'll look into it" So this is me looking into it.
I am reading up on it as well, I just see no answer to this question anywhere. Also thank you for your response sir!0 -
I personally eat based on my activity level. If I am active that day I tend to eat more. Which will go over my calculated caloric intake. If she is an active person, she will burn off the calories she eats. While in the Keto diet, she will need to listen to what her body is telling her. If her body is saying "hey you...I need more calories" then by all means she should eat something. Just be sure she will be eating within the Keto boundaries and she should still lose weight.
I listen to my body, and have lost 16 pounds steady in the past few months. One other tip for her....don't let her be defeated by the monthly cycle weight gain. It goes away again. Trust me
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You have to be in deficit for fatloss, but it's easier to achieve said deficit on LCHF diet for many people because the satiety factor is higher than on a high carb diet. Just remember that the deficit number calculators ESTIMATE for you, might not be what the body perceives as a deficit to access stored fat for energy. Even with the most meticulous food tracking, it's all an estimate.0
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I personally eat based on my activity level. If I am active that day I tend to eat more. Which will go over my calculated caloric intake. If she is an active person, she will burn off the calories she eats. While in the Keto diet, she will need to listen to what her body is telling her. If her body is saying "hey you...I need more calories" then by all means she should eat something. Just be sure she will be eating within the Keto boundaries and she should still lose weight.
I listen to my body, and have lost 16 pounds steady in the past few months.
It's more of a direct question towards the ketosis diet, does it state that you can/will lose weight without being in a deficit due to the science of ketosis?0 -
As others have said, it comes down to how you define "deficit." If you calculate it, then she may be right. But if you had a way to evaluate the biochemistry, then you'll find there is a deficit.
For example, consider protein. If you throw 100g in a calorimeter, it'll produce 400 calories of heat. But in the body, the conversion of protein to stored fat is very inefficient. Maybe 30% of the input would be converted to fat if you overate.
So 400 calories in would have the same effect as 120 calories worth of weight gain. A metabolically-induced deficit.0 -
Try some information from this site.... ketogenic-diet-resource.com/calorie-counting.html
It states, for some people calorie counting may be necessary, for others, not so much. I have used this site to attempt to answer my own questions. Calories differ for people.0 -
I've pretty extensively studied the keto diet. I have never seen any expert, reference, or study make the claim that you will lose weight without being in a deficit. I've seen several claims about the ease and almost mindless ability to maintain a deficit. I've seen and experienced larger deficits than predicted. But, I've never seen someone say there was no deficit.
That would be like claiming that you can empty a room full of people without anyone leaving the room. Weight loss, by definition, means there is a deficit.0 -
Okay, confusing and seems I have allot more reading and understanding to do.
Thank you for the information!
brad0 -
Just tell her she's right.
It's possible to gain weight on a ketogenic diet, but it's harder than just about any other diet.
It works for weight loss partly due to satiety and partly due to metabolic tweaks.0 -
I eat due to hunger rather than activity. Sometimes it matches up, sometimes it doesn't. It took me a few weeks jumping in cold turkey to this way of eating to hear my body's voice again. Some days I eat 2500 calories, some days I eat 1700 calories. I even had one crappy day where I at 1200 calories. Yet, I am also in a deficit as far as body burn versus intake rather than ridiculously poor calorie counting, as I've lost about 20 pounds and about the same number of inches about 2 months in. The first month was LCHFMP only. The second month was Keto.
If you are using the word "deficit" to mean eating under an arbitrarily set number of calories, then this discussion won't have as much merit to you. However, if you are using it to reference one's body's efficiency in burning the fuel it intakes, most bodies (medical conditions excepting) are simply more efficient burning fat for fuel instead of carbs, as our bodies are "hard wired" to do, and because of this efficiency, one can consume more calories and still maintain an energy deficit.
Lots of good information, studies, knowledgeable people, options/variations, and resources in this group.0 -
Figured I'd bump this since I happened to be reading a good summary of how ketosis aids weight loss (copy/paste).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23801097
Here we can summarize (listed in order of importance and available evidence) that the weight-loss effect of VLCKD seems to be caused by several factors:
1. Reduction in appetite due to higher satiety effect of
proteins,12,22 effects on appetite control hormones21 and to a
possible direct appetite-suppressant action of the KBs.23
2. Reduction in lipogenesis and increased lipolysis.7,10
3. Reduction in the resting respiratory quotient and, therefore,
greater metabolic efficiency in consuming fats.20,24
4. Increased metabolic costs of gluconeogenesis and the thermic
effect of proteins.13,180 -
Ketosis puts you in a fat burning mode. When you eat less fat you burn your own body fat. You naturally eat less calories and you eat less often; intermittent fasting comes naturally. I have used (burned) over 70 pounds of body fat being Ketogenic. The other health and wellness benefits are amazing. The clarity of mind, the energy, and the stability are incredible. Absolutely no blood sugar highs and lows cause you are burning fat all the time. I have a hard time maintaining my weight because it is hard to eat enough. I eat only low carb vegetables for 5 % of my diet, moderate protein for 15 % of my diet and everything else comes from fat; 80% fat intake is my goal. I eat no starch or sugar ever and I never have alcohol. The Ketogenic diet is not about the number of carbs you eat but the % of fat and it needs to be at least 75%- 87% fat. When you consider celery, bok Choy or cabbage accounts for almost nothing in calories it is the butter that counts. At the very least you would have to eat 25 % carbs and protein combined and 75% minimum from real fat. I am fit and lean and I have great muscle tone. Life is amazing!0
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Just tell her she's right.
It's possible to gain weight on a ketogenic diet, but it's harder than just about any other diet.
It works for weight loss partly due to satiety and partly due to metabolic tweaks.
Not really. I maintained for over a decade, then gained by simply having other things to worry about, and not keeping track of things like how much cream I poured in coffee or how much butter or oil I threw in a pan when I cooked. It wasn't difficult at all, it was just doing "lazy keto" for a few years while simultaneously being less active than normal.0 -
Thanks for all the feedback.
I'm curious how you guys come to your calorie goals? or macros? so I get the 70% 20% 10% ... Where do you derive that number from? as in do you take your BMR and figure it out? or if I eat 5000 calories a day but 70% is fat 20% is protein and 10% is carbs... I'd still lose?0 -
A bunch of us who are going for ketosis start here: http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/0
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http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/
This should help you figure out your calories. I don't know if you can even eat 5000 cals on keto0 -
Tedebearduff wrote: »Thanks for all the feedback.
I'm curious how you guys come to your calorie goals? or macros? so I get the 70% 20% 10% ... Where do you derive that number from? as in do you take your BMR and figure it out? or if I eat 5000 calories a day but 70% is fat 20% is protein and 10% is carbs... I'd still lose?
It's not about percentages. It's about the total grams. At 5,000 calories a day, you would be eating 125g of carbs if you ate 10% carbs. That would be way over ketosis levels. At 1,400 calories, you're eating only 35g of carbs at 10% (which is borderline-high for ketosis levels). Most people recommend 5% because 5% of most calorie goals will be 25g or less (as most people eat fewer than 2,000 calories a day when trying to lose).
That said, some of us have no calorie goal. We have no percentages or macros in mind (except fewer than 25g of carbs a day). We arrive at our calorie goal based on how much we desire to eat. Some of us don't even know how many calories we eat. I only know mine because a friend asked me to track for a month for him.
If you want calorie goals, numbers, and stuff like that then you'll want to use that keto-calculator link people mentioned.http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/
This should help you figure out your calories. I don't know if you can even eat 5000 cals on keto
I assure you, it's possible. I've done it. There was also a guy who ate over 5,000 calories a day intentionally in an attempt to gain weight. It's not easy. It might be doable on a single-day basis, but it gets progressively harder if you try and do it day after day.0 -
I ignore calories, focus on keeping a cap on my carbs (usually it comes from traces in cream and eggs, or in seasonings), and eat lovely yummy fatty stuff when I'm hungry. MFP cares way more about calories than nutrients. I love thumbing my nose at it when it shows me I'm over my calories (which I have set to about 1275 just to get MFP to put my carb cap in the right place). Like so many others, I use that keto-calculator.
You seem pretty dubious of this WoE, and I'd really like to invite you to open your mind to the possibility that all the nutrition information you think you know may be wrong. Let go of "fat is bad" and "calories in, calories out." Embrace the concepts behind a ketogenic diet. Try it, wholeheartedly, for a month. Then review your results and make the right move for you.0 -
Tedebearduff wrote: »It's more of a direct question towards the ketosis diet, does it state that you can/will lose weight without being in a deficit due to the science of ketosis?
No, it doesn't state that, but unfortunately your gf's misinterpretation is a common one. :-/
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