Swimming in fasted state?
Chrysalid2014
Posts: 1,038 Member
Hi all,
I read somewhere recently that swimming in a 'fasted' state helps the body learn to utilize fat for energy. Is there any truth in this? If so, is timing important (i.e. does it mean one should necessarily swim first thing in the morning, or just leave a reasonable gap of say five hours after eating)?
I read somewhere recently that swimming in a 'fasted' state helps the body learn to utilize fat for energy. Is there any truth in this? If so, is timing important (i.e. does it mean one should necessarily swim first thing in the morning, or just leave a reasonable gap of say five hours after eating)?
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I'm always skeptical of any any suggestion that you need to help your 'learn' a metabolic process. Biology is pretty well established at the genetic level.0
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There's no way I could swim in a fasted state. I'm no expert on metabolism, but I would think that the body is going to burn fat when you do enough exercise whether you're in a fasted state or not.....0
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I've heard this about pretty much all exercise, but I doubt it would make any difference worth writing home about. I do my bodyweight circuit fasted (because first thing in the morning is the best time for me) and I've noticed no amazing (or even small) differences in fat loss beyond what could be expected. I would never swim fasted, however. Fuel is important for stamina and performance.0
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I can't imagine swimming in a fasted state, and I'm not getting anywhere near the cardio that most people on this board are doing. Add to that the fact that when I'm done swimming, I have to keep something to eat pretty quickly afterward, or I'll go home and eat 800 calories while I prepare dinner... Swimming itself makes me more hungry than any other activity I have ever done. If I swam in a fasted state, I'd probably eat my steering wheel on the way home.0
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I first heard this idea from Marcia Cleveland in her book, Dover Solo: Swimming The English Channel. She doesn't have medical or physiological training, but practical experience in swimming very long distances.[Mike Oram, pilot of an escort boat for channel swimmers] suggested that I go into my long pool swims on an empty stomach so my body would learn how to burn fat effectively. Since I did not eat before my morning workouts I was already doing this, thus simulating the physiological condition after swimming for a few hours. My system was already learning to switch over from its initial stores of carbohydrates and glycogen to fats right from the start of a swim."
I have also done this, I think with some success, but I too have no expertise in the area. It is certainly not a way to cheat the basic mathematics of CICO, but it may be a way to get your body into ketosis more aggressively than merely fasting. It seems to be essentially what what many marathon runners describe as 'hitting the wall' around the 23-mile mark. Since I too have no medical or physiological expertise, I do not recommend it too others, but I do it myself sometimes, about once a week on long swims of 3 miles after not eating that morning, or sometimes not even the day before, at least not much. A couple of times, it was a little scary afterward (ie, feeling like I might faint, dry heaves, tingling in my fingers), and I needed to sit still for quite a while before I started to feel normal again. Later on I always follow up with a big dose of protein (steak or lobster) for the rest, restoration, and rebuilding phase. I now sometimes also eat a protein bar before I do this, at the recommendation of a pharmacist friend.
Again, I am not recommending this. I used to share an office with an exercise phsiologist. Next time I see her, I will ask her about this. I don't think it trains the body to burn fat when other sources of energy are no longer available. I think the body does this naturally. It might make the transition a little easier to navigate and it may put you into ketosis more quickly than fasting. It may help with swimming the English Channel, at least from a psychological perspective.0 -
I used to share an office with an exercise phsiologist. Next time I see her, I will ask her about this. I don't think it trains the body to burn fat when other sources of energy are no longer available. I think the body does this naturally. It might make the transition a little easier to navigate and it may put you into ketosis more quickly than fasting. It may help with swimming the English Channel, at least from a psychological perspective.
Thanks Robertus. I'd be interested in any follow-up to this.
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Sure. Next time I see her, I will ask, but I don't see her very often. We may come across another source on this before that.Chrysalid2014 wrote: »I used to share an office with an exercise phsiologist. Next time I see her, I will ask her about this. I don't think it trains the body to burn fat when other sources of energy are no longer available. I think the body does this naturally. It might make the transition a little easier to navigate and it may put you into ketosis more quickly than fasting. It may help with swimming the English Channel, at least from a psychological perspective.
Thanks Robertus. I'd be interested in any follow-up to this.
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I generally swim in a fasted state not deliberately but because I usually swim at 5:30 am.
I've heard the stories on fasted state cardio and don't know what to believe.
More important than the time of swim is just to get the swims in daily regardless of the time of day.
I'm pretty sure the type and intensity of the swim will have a greater impact on fat then time of swim, so make sure you havetthat right as a higher priority for fat burning.
Perhaps tweaks to time of day could lead to 5% improvement in fat burning. But tweaks to your swimming regimen could likely lead to a greater than 50% improvement in fat burn!
I think high intensity swims that push heart rate up including the sprints snd ladders people talk about here attack fat somewhat more effectively then long slow swims (I now try to do both), and the calorie burn I suspect is higher.
Check out this earlier discussion on calorie burn generally:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10101324/a-snapshot-of-swim-calorie-calculators#latest
And this interesting one on the body's different energy systems
https://experiencelife.com/article/all-about-your-metabolic-energy-systems/
Thst said we shouldn't over complicate this stuff. The MFP calories in less than calories out formula still holds true!
I lost 33 pounds counting cals and swimming!0 -
I generally swim in a fasted state - like Aquatic its because I swim first thing in the morning. I don't even have a drink of water before I swim, so I am properly "fasted"! On the weekends I don't eat before swimming and normally just have a cup of tea first. I really couldn't comment on how it affects the body as I haven't really swum later in the day for years.0
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I am no expert about ketosis, but I did come across a quote today that leads me to wonder if the weight-loss gains from swimming in a fasted state might be much greater than a 5% improvement.AquaticQuests wrote: »I'm pretty sure the type and intensity of the swim will have a greater impact on fat then time of swim, so make sure you havetthat right as a higher priority for fat burning.
Perhaps tweaks to time of day could lead to 5% improvement in fat burning. But tweaks to your swimming regimen could likely lead to a greater than 50% improvement in fat burn!
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/12amhq/keto_calculator_20/c6vvu7f?context=3It's difficult to say something about the body fat burning rate when keto adapted. I think it should be higher, the book "The art and Science of low carbohydrate performance" finds a peak fat oxidation rate for keto-adapted athletes that is 2 to 7 times higher than when not keto-adapted. (page 23).
Obviously, this is not a way to cheat CICO, but the keto-adapted athletes are simply burning more body fat rather than the carbs they ate prior to swimming. Also, the peak oxidation rate should not be mistaken for the maximal calorie burn over time, in other words, carb-loading should still produce better performance.
I have my doubts about this as well. I also do both, but utilize sprints for a different purpose. A couple of articles I saw today seem to indicate that moderate levels of aerobic exercise may burn calories more effectively than higher levels, and, obviously, moderate levels of aerobic intensity can be sustained for a much greater length of time. I call this swimming in an aerobic loop, where it feels like you can almost effortlessly increase distance just by increasing the time of the work-out. Here are the articles I'm referring to:AquaticQuests wrote: »I think high intensity swims that push heart rate up including the sprints snd ladders people talk about here attack fat somewhat more effectively then long slow swims (I now try to do both), and the calorie burn I suspect is higher.
Anne Bach Stisen, Ole Stougaard, Josef Langfort, Jørn Wulff Helge, Kent Sahlin, Klavs Madsen. Maximal fat oxidation rates in endurance trained and untrained women. European Journal of Applied Physiology. November 2006, Volume 98, Issue 5, pp 497-506- Training-induced adaptation in muscle fat oxidative capacity.
- The highest rates of fat oxidation occur at moderate exercise intensity, ie, 56% VO2max for endurance trained athletes and 53% for untrained people.
- http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-006-0290-x
Stefano Lazzer, Carlo Busti, Fiorenza Agosti, Alessandra De Col, Renzo Pozzo, Alessandro Sartorio. Optimizing fat oxidation through exercise in severely obese Caucasian adolescents. Clinical Endocrinology. Volume 67, Issue 4 October 2007 Pages 582–588- Severely obese and sedentary nonobese adolescents reached maximal fat oxidation rates at 41%V̇O2max, which corresponds to 58% HRmax.
- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2007.02929.x/full
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Interesting.
I'm always learning on here and will definitely look at the material.
I would say that my personal experience has been that when I started the sprints a few weeks back, I certainly lost some body fat that the longer swims hadn't dealt with, got more "ripped" and a six pack is emerging, for the first time ever (or that I can remember) LOL!
But then again it could be other factors eg more consistent swimming?
Interesting stuff - I'm always looking to learn and will definitely be reading what you posted Robertus!
Thanks again!0 -
Ha - you guys & your 6-packs....talk to me when you make it to a quarter keg.....0
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We're talking about endurance so why only a quarter keg?0
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Lolest!0
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Because you pick up the next quarter on your set break, & so on........0
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I do swim before breakfast, so yeah, I guess you could call it swimming in a fasted state.
I don't prefer it, and I find my endurance is much better on weekends when I had a big ole bowl o' steel cut oats before I do my swim.0 -
Depends on what you mean by fasted.
If you mean first thing in the morning before eating.?
That is how i swim every weekday.
I have noticed that i seem to swim a little faster on Sunday. The Y doesn't pen until 1pm so i have a well digested breakfast and snack in me.
But i can't say if it changes how i burn anything.
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A couple of articles I saw today seem to indicate that moderate levels of aerobic exercise may burn calories more effectively than higher levels, and, obviously, moderate levels of aerobic intensity can be sustained for a much greater length of time. I call this swimming in an aerobic loop, where it feels like you can almost effortlessly increase distance just by increasing the time of the work-out.
As I recall this used to be a thing when I was a gym addict around 20 years ago. The cardio machines all had diagrams on them indicating where the 'fat burning zone' (based on an optimum heartrate) was according to one's age. I got the impression that this theory had fallen out of favour these days (although that doesn't mean it's not valid, of course!).
And yes, by 'fasted' state I think we're talking about before one's first meal of the day. I don't know if having tea or coffee beforehand disqualifies you?
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I don't think what I'm saying has been discredited. This part of what I've said is simple CICO. You can burn more calories by exercising longer at a level that can be sustained over that longer period of time. This is independent of whether the calories one is burning are stored fat or recently eaten from carb loading.Chrysalid2014 wrote: »A couple of articles I saw today seem to indicate that moderate levels of aerobic exercise may burn calories more effectively than higher levels, and, obviously, moderate levels of aerobic intensity can be sustained for a much greater length of time. I call this swimming in an aerobic loop, where it feels like you can almost effortlessly increase distance just by increasing the time of the work-out.
As I recall this used to be a thing when I was a gym addict around 20 years ago. The cardio machines all had diagrams on them indicating where the 'fat burning zone' (based on an optimum heartrate) was according to one's age. I got the impression that this theory had fallen out of favour these days (although that doesn't mean it's not valid, of course!).
No, coffee and tea do not disqualify someone.Chrysalid2014 wrote: »And yes, by 'fasted' state I think we're talking about before one's first meal of the day. I don't know if having tea or coffee beforehand disqualifies you?
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I find if I try to swim fasted my stomach gets very upset, especially if we are doing sprints or some other similarily challenging workout.0
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Yes, this is why we distinguish between peak oxidation rate and maximal calorie burn over time. The former is a measure of fat burning, the latter is a measure of performance, regardless of the fuel being burned.Depends on what you mean by fasted.
If you mean first thing in the morning before eating.?
That is how i swim every weekday.
I have noticed that i seem to swim a little faster on Sunday. The Y doesn't pen until 1pm so i have a well digested breakfast and snack in me.
But i can't say if it changes how i burn anything.0 -
Who knew that rats could swim, and at high intensity too? LOL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15040848
Reading in preparation for my sprints day tomorrow!
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I will have to remember to tell my rat f(r)iends. Seriously, is there any suggestion in the full article that these enzyme activity levels should be considered surrogate measures for the number of calories burned (in humans)?AquaticQuests wrote: »Who knew that rats could swim, and at high intensity too? LOL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15040848
Reading in preparation for my sprints day tomorrow!
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