Palatability experiment
SideSteel
Posts: 11,068 Member
Hey everyone,
So this is going to be a rather goofy post that I might also post in my blog. I'm also going to paste the link to this to my online clients to see if I can have some of them attempt this and report their results.
I'm a big fan of Stephan Guyenet. He's an obesity researcher who focuses on the neurobiology of obesity. Through Stephan's literature I first learned about the idea (an intuitive one, really) that food palatability is associated with energy intake in that (again, seemingly obviously) more palatable foods are more likely to be eaten in excess. The same holds true for foods of higher energy density.
One of Guyenet's recommendations is to use gentler cooking methods and basically consume foods that are less palatable. Now before anyone freaks out on me I'm not suggesting that everyone should cut all the flavor out of their diets, but I'm going to share a few observational things I've done and propose that you do the same, just to observe and then write about your experiences in this thread.
Today I made a meal consisting of the following:
Two chicken breasts
White potatoes, boiled, skin on.
Mixed vegetables, steamed.
A few strawberries
Water.
Now in fairness, the chicken breasts were Market Pantry frozen marinated chicken breasts. So these were rather highly palatable and in a sense that probably diminished my results a bit. Beyond that though, I used no salt, no pepper, no Sriracha, nothing.
No butter on the potato, basically everything was plain.
Here's what I've noticed:
1) The food was bland but it was not without flavor. You would be surprised what potatoes and vegetables actually taste like when they aren't seasoned up the wazoo (I put Sriracha on everything).
2) I could barely finish it due to fullness.
3) The feeling of fullness kicked in far sooner than I expected. Half way through the meal my brain was basically like "ok we can stop".
4) I finished it because this is a food quantity that I would normally consume. It is now almost 5 hours later and I am not hungry.
5) Potatoes SOUND awful without anything on them, but they aren't as bad as it sounds. You can actually taste potato.
I find this valuable as an exercise for a few reasons:
a) This might be useful for people to help differentiate between hedonic hunger and homeostatic hunger.
b) This might be useful for people to help determine what fullness feels like.
c) Perhaps I'm reaching with this one, but if this were done for a few days I would suspect some differences in taste sensation probably for the good. For example if you've heard about people who switch from regular to diet soda and then they go back to regular soda and it tastes like straight sugar and really not enjoyable --- possibly that sort of thing.
I'd like to encourage people to try this even if it's just for ONE meal. Prepare a moderate serving of protein (probably 30-40g or so), boil some potatoes, have a large serving of green vegetables, add a small serving of fruit if you'd like, and don't season anything. Literally eat it plain.
Report back here in this thread if you do this, and describe your experiences with regard to taste and fullness cues.
That's all for now!
Patrick
So this is going to be a rather goofy post that I might also post in my blog. I'm also going to paste the link to this to my online clients to see if I can have some of them attempt this and report their results.
I'm a big fan of Stephan Guyenet. He's an obesity researcher who focuses on the neurobiology of obesity. Through Stephan's literature I first learned about the idea (an intuitive one, really) that food palatability is associated with energy intake in that (again, seemingly obviously) more palatable foods are more likely to be eaten in excess. The same holds true for foods of higher energy density.
One of Guyenet's recommendations is to use gentler cooking methods and basically consume foods that are less palatable. Now before anyone freaks out on me I'm not suggesting that everyone should cut all the flavor out of their diets, but I'm going to share a few observational things I've done and propose that you do the same, just to observe and then write about your experiences in this thread.
Today I made a meal consisting of the following:
Two chicken breasts
White potatoes, boiled, skin on.
Mixed vegetables, steamed.
A few strawberries
Water.
Now in fairness, the chicken breasts were Market Pantry frozen marinated chicken breasts. So these were rather highly palatable and in a sense that probably diminished my results a bit. Beyond that though, I used no salt, no pepper, no Sriracha, nothing.
No butter on the potato, basically everything was plain.
Here's what I've noticed:
1) The food was bland but it was not without flavor. You would be surprised what potatoes and vegetables actually taste like when they aren't seasoned up the wazoo (I put Sriracha on everything).
2) I could barely finish it due to fullness.
3) The feeling of fullness kicked in far sooner than I expected. Half way through the meal my brain was basically like "ok we can stop".
4) I finished it because this is a food quantity that I would normally consume. It is now almost 5 hours later and I am not hungry.
5) Potatoes SOUND awful without anything on them, but they aren't as bad as it sounds. You can actually taste potato.
I find this valuable as an exercise for a few reasons:
a) This might be useful for people to help differentiate between hedonic hunger and homeostatic hunger.
b) This might be useful for people to help determine what fullness feels like.
c) Perhaps I'm reaching with this one, but if this were done for a few days I would suspect some differences in taste sensation probably for the good. For example if you've heard about people who switch from regular to diet soda and then they go back to regular soda and it tastes like straight sugar and really not enjoyable --- possibly that sort of thing.
I'd like to encourage people to try this even if it's just for ONE meal. Prepare a moderate serving of protein (probably 30-40g or so), boil some potatoes, have a large serving of green vegetables, add a small serving of fruit if you'd like, and don't season anything. Literally eat it plain.
Report back here in this thread if you do this, and describe your experiences with regard to taste and fullness cues.
That's all for now!
Patrick
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Replies
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Yeah, it's an interesting experiment for sure. I did Lyle McDonald's RFL plan for 14 weeks and it was astonishing how quickly my hunger dissipated. Basically I ate 225g of protein every day and nothing else. So lots of lean mean and egg whites and fat free cheese. That's it. It ended up averaging ~1250 calories a day which is a very large deficit (normal TDEE is right at ~3k).
Every meal I'd struggle at about halfway through. I was eating 8-10 ounces of cooked chicken at every meal and after just a few pieces I'd be done. I had to force feed myself most of the time, knowing that I really needed to hit my protein numbers if I didn't want to lose my gainzzzz. Crazy to think about not being able to hit 1200 calories a day, all those threads were right!
Having said that, if you put a chocolate cake down in front of me I bet I magically would have become hungry again.
Stupid human bodies.0 -
This is kinda similar to what I do when I am prepping and need to make weight for a contest. Although, I do use salt. I measure out 5 oz of chicken breast and eat that 3 times/day, and I have steak or lean beef (5 oz) for my 4th meal. Veggies are spinach with a little bit of balsamic, or broccoli. I will keep this diet up for ~3 weeks or so and it becomes relatively easy to stick to a pretty low calorie range for me (somewhere in the 1350-1600 range depending on if I add some extra fat in the form of avocado or fish oil. I do this if I feel hungry in the evening). Boring, pretty bland, but allows me to drop both fat and water weight fairly quickly. Every so often I'll replace one of the veggie servings with something like green beans or cauliflower and it's like a special treat haha.0
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I eat as little sodium as I can....no added salt on meats, eggs, etc. Lately tho I have been making my own "tarter" sauce. Because of the amount of sodium in dill pickle relish, I cut back on that to 1/2 of the suggested serving. Anything like ketchup, bbq sauce, packaged chips taste like overloaded in sodium. Its like I'm licking thesalt shaker. Restaurants are downright gross with overladen sodium. With that said, I eat 90% of my daily meal before 1pm. Sometimes as early as 10:30. After 7-8 hrs, I'll get a little empty feeling & try to include a protein.
(like today's, was done by 11am. Logged in diff categories so I could keep track a li'l better. Totally not hungry & now its 6pm.)0 -
Tagging0
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When I went through basic training with the Air Force, we were denied having anything with sugar. No sodas, no candy, no sugary cereals, limited selection of juices. Mostly they wanted us drinking water and eating full foods to keep energy levels up for all the physical training we were doing.
After a couple weeks, I discovered how incredibly sweet something like ketchup tasted. Do you realize ketchup is actually 12% sugar? To say nothing about how amazingly sweet syrup tastes on pancakes. To this day almost 20 years later, my wife is still amazed how much ketchup I put on my burgers.
After training was over I started drinking sodas again, and unfortunately it got to be a rather huge habit for me, to the point I was putting away a 2-liter a day and wanting more. For Lent a couple years back I gave up all soda, which kick started me losing 20 pounds over just a few months. (The fact I discovered this site to track calories at about the same time had nothing to do with my weight loss, lol.) After getting past the headaches from caffeine addiction withdrawal, I found I didn't miss the sodas like I thought I would. It's now been over a year since that Lenten journey ended, and I allow myself sodas once more, but limited to a single 12-oz serving per week. (Except when trying to stay awake during graveyard shifts, when I'm allowed one 12-oz can per shift.) I actually prefer the taste of cold water to soda anymore, and water is all I order when I go out to eat, even at burger joints. The savings in calories, taste and money has been quite something.
On a related vein, about eight years ago my doctor told me I was borderline hypertensive blood pressure, and if I didn't get it under control in the next 3 months I'd be put on medication. By the next visit my BP had gone from scary high to smack in the middle of normal, 120/80. Between visits, I made exactly one change: a drastic reduction in my salt intake. I realize this change may not impact other people to the same degree, I'm not trying to praise lack of salt for blood pressure reasons (though that's a great side effect). My point is the change to the flavor of my food. I'm the chef in my family, so making the change was easy; instead of adding salt to whatever I was cooking while it cooked, I waited until either right before I served it or after it was already on my plate. Turns out the salt in cooking just got absorbed and lost its "saltiness", encouraging me to just add more on my plate anyway. But if I waited, the salt remained on the surface and retained the flavor.
In addition, I've done some experimenting with other seasonings beyond just salt, like sage, thyme, etc. There's a world of flavors out there.0 -
Really? No sugar in the Air Force? I thought you guys got an ice cream cone after every meal before going back to the barracks for pillow fights and slumber parties?When I went through basic training with the Air Force, we were denied having anything with sugar.
Full disclosure... this is a case of interservice rivalry. I was in the Navy on submarines. My cousin spent 20+ yrs USAF and i give him shite too
Now, so i am not accused of hijacking the thread... my go-to seasoning for chicken (and other stuff) right now is Old Bay. I know i wouldn't hit my protein without it. Boneless skinless chicken breast is just too bland. And I have been a saltaholic since i was a kid, but i have cut way down since then. I make a point to enjoy the natural flavors of things when I can, but some things need enhancement!
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Navy, eh? Most of what comes to mind is inappropriate for a family forum, so moving on... ;-) (My old man was Navy on the USS America aircraft carrier back in 'Nam.)0
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Yeah, it's an interesting experiment for sure. I did Lyle McDonald's RFL plan for 14 weeks and it was astonishing how quickly my hunger dissipated. Basically I ate 225g of protein every day and nothing else. So lots of lean mean and egg whites and fat free cheese. That's it. It ended up averaging ~1250 calories a day which is a very large deficit (normal TDEE is right at ~3k).
Every meal I'd struggle at about halfway through. I was eating 8-10 ounces of cooked chicken at every meal and after just a few pieces I'd be done. I had to force feed myself most of the time, knowing that I really needed to hit my protein numbers if I didn't want to lose my gainzzzz. Crazy to think about not being able to hit 1200 calories a day, all those threads were right!
Having said that, if you put a chocolate cake down in front of me I bet I magically would have become hungry again.
Stupid human bodies.
This is a great example. While we 'can' eat less palatable foods and be full, many people can have the feeling of fullness without being satiated. I think these are two distinct states.
Call it strength, willpower, drive or whatever, but there will be some people who can eat until they are physically full, but still not 'feel' satisfied. I think much of this is learned behaviour... eg I finish every meal with dessert so even though I feel full. I'm not 'done' until I have something sweet and highly palatable.0 -
Interesting, especially as I sometimes have a hard time differentiating between still being (truly) hungry/not satisfied and just wanting more.0
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I was raised with no condiments on the dinner table, or with any meal for that matter. We had sugar for baking and for tea/coffee for company. No ketchup, salt, pepper, mustard etc and no dressings, sauces etc. Saladswere strictly the veggies only. We were allowed only a miniscule amount of margarine at dinner and on bread. We had no take-out food ever, never ate away from home until us kids were well into our teenage years. I still eat that way for the most part....can't tolerate any dressings on my salad....no sauces on anything.....no salt/pepper. I like what other people call very "bland, no taste food". But I must say, whenever I put on weight, it always involves ice cream or desserts or pasta. Never had pasta in our house growing up, ice cream only on birthdays, and desserts only on special occasions.0
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I'm a big proponent of ketchup, butter, salt and the like, but I never put dressing or oil on my salad. I like the firm crunch of the veggies.0
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Jose did this experiment for a full day and sent me vids and thoughts, I'll paste that here soon. I also have a few clients that will share their thoughts.0
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I would be curious as to how long this effect would last. I have changed a few things from normal sodium levels to a lower sodium level. At first these foods weren't as satisfying but after a while they became palatable as my taste buds adjusted.
When I read the OP my first thought was about pasta. I love pasta but without salt it becomes very bland even if I put a sauce(unsalted) on it.0 -
I haven't done the whole meal thing but I can now eat and enjoy plain baked potatoes (russet, white, red, new, and sweet).0
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Update: I've got a couple of clients that volunteered to try this and report back. I also still intend to report on Mrm27s results with this as well -- just been busy but I'll update shortly. Thanks!0
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I think there are just some foods that I cannot eat in large quantities. Whether it's to do with fullness or mental boredom is another matter.
For instance, if I want to go on a very restrictive plan and not be hungry, I eat brown rice kedgeree (brown rice, egg, haddock, peas and other vegetables) and I will be full after half a portion. It's not because I dislike the taste or it's flavourless, I enjoy it.
But I just get full very quickly. But as Dope said, if someone put a chocolate cake in front of me, would my hunger suddenly rematerialise? I'd have to test that.0 -
Now - is this a piece of chocolate cake that is being discussed, or a whole cake?
Because I'm down with testing on the chocolate cake part.
But if pieces, I don't think I'm getting between cake and you guys.0 -
I eat about two cups of plain raw vegetables with my grilled chicken (sometimes sandwich) almost everyday at work. (Sometimes adding red wine vinegar).
Most of the veggies, I really have come to enjoy. Not raw broccoli though... I'll eat a whole cup to a cup and half each meal, but I almost have to force myself to eat it. I want/need the fiber though, and it fills me up, so I do it.
I find that focusing on chewing those raw veggies really, really well aids in the mental feeling of fullness... it's like I put in work to get the meal in me, so it feels more like a whole process, start to finish. Also, my digestion has really benefited from this meticulous mastication.
And I absolutely notice that the feeling of satiety is much longer, and I've come to look forward to my veggies : )
Except broccoli.
Edited to add: I usually half half an avocado with this meal every day as well... My absolute favorite. Gotta salt it though.0 -
Raw broccoli, yuck. Steamed broccoli, yum. But carrots are the opposite; raw and crunchy, or no thanks.0
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Hey everyone!
While I still have a couple of clients doing this for experimental purposes and taking notes, I wanted to share MrM27's experiences. This is a direct reply from him along with video:
"This was an experiment I decided to try out after reading SideSteel's post and trading a couple of messages. Before I continue I will say that I did understand the thought process behind the idea but I wasn't completely supportive of the approach. Many people see food as just a source of energy/nutrion, I on the other hand love food and try to construct me meals around getting proper nutrition while enjoying everything I eat while not forcing myself to eat in a way that is not enjoyable. So while I did get the concept I wasn't really on board.
Breakfast was my typical meal so it wasn't something I was doing outside of my normal routine. I ate the meal at 10:15. I don't always eat breakfast and today would have gone that way but I figured I would eat prior to my chiro appointment. After the meal I felt content as I normally would. The one thing that I didn't like was not being able to get my coffee with cream and caramel.
Breakfast
2 whole eggs
5 egg whites
2 slices of pork bacon
1 white flour tortilla
https://youtu.be/3naD1IQikmk
Meal #2 was my first lunch of the day. I don't eat a specific number of meals daily, it just falls where it does. 2 lunches though is almost always how I eat but I can be 3 or even breakfast twice. When I got home from the park I wasn't really hungry but I figured I would eat just in case we spent too long at the park (What a life).
Lunch #2
White chocolate wonderful on whole wheat bread
https://youtu.be/6If-ihfWqOs
Meal #3 (lunch #2) and the spot I new I wasn't excited about. Grilled chicken and sweet potato. By this point it's 4:15 and I was a little hungry but knowing what was on deck actually made me not race to the kitchen when I got home. I rarely ever grill chicken but I figured with no seasoning of any kind, the oven would dry it out more than I wanted. The sweet potatoes were boiled with no added condiments. Eating the meal itself was not enjoyable at all. Halfway through I was just eating it as fast as I could to get it over with. The chicken was as to be expected and the sweet potatoes weren't bad but the salt, garlic and cayenne pepper was sorely missed. I can see right here how removing that added flavor would definitely prohibit me from eating too much of that meal. It did obviously satisfy my hunger but afterwards all I could think about was having something else to satisfy a desire to eat something flavorful. While I was cooking I ate 158g of strawberries but something was still missing. The mental game kicked in there. I have a goal for the day and I won't be veering of course.
8oz of grilled chicken
100g of sweet potato
https://youtu.be/RJzarLYT1Ro
https://youtu.be/pZGjlhvqQNM
Meal #4 Dinner, she came home from work with a honey roasted whole chicken and afterwards she remembered "Oh yeah, your experiment for the day, I forgot". I took 3 chicken drumsticks and put them in the oven along with asparagus. Tomato and avocado topped off the meal. Once again, I found I was forcing myself to eat the whole thing. And once again there would be no way for me to eat more than planned. No thanks.
3 chicken drumsticks
12 asparagus spears
2oz of avocado
2 slices of tomato
https://youtu.be/ipLVjCHXc64
After dinner I still had a couple of calories left to be eaten and at the same time I didn't like where my fat intake was so I had 1 tablespoon of Peanut butter & Co. Dark chocolate Dream.
What I did miss the most today out of everything wasn't the salt or pepper, it was the coffee.
Numbers:
1,789 calories
Fat 62g
Protein 154g
Carbs 113g
What I took away from the day was that removing the palatability of my food most definitely decreased my desire to eat more than I needed to. However, one big issue I could see happening is eating a bunch of food that hit that pleasure center at some later time. I think the possibility of a potential binge at some point is a huge deterrent from eating like I did today all the time. I can see wheels spinning all over the place.
My next issue was the fact that this was only 1 day so getting past it was easily achieved because mentally I knew tomorrow I'd be eating for fuel and pleasure. I stated yesterday thoughts on this factor being strong enough to skew my findings. I compared it to the euphoria people feel when they first start trying to lose weight. Once that euphoria is gone many people just end up on the couch watching TV. So what happens when the excitement of process dissipates and you're left with a diet that you just are not enjoying ?
Eating this way basically takes a situation which most people fail at, maintaining a caloric deficit day in and day out and makes it even more difficult to adhere to it. Now I would question how much it would change things of you did it for only 1 meal or 2 per day. A lot of what we do in this game which it seems many people don't focus on enough is the psychological factor. You can be given a plan that could be the best around but if your head is not in the game then you've already lost. "0 -
For example if you've heard about people who switch from regular to diet soda and then they go back to regular soda and it tastes like straight sugar and really not enjoyable
This was completely true for me. When I first started logging on MFP I cut regular soda and went straight to water for 6 months. After that I went to diet soda.
The things I observed were:
1. Diet soda always had had an aftertaste to it that I just could not handle, so I never drank it. Afterwards, there was no aftertaste whatsoever.
2. I had always found tea (even green tea) to be bitter. I refused to drink tea. Now, it tastes sweet to me, even unsweetened tea.
3. Fruits tasted sweeter and more "ripe" after the switch.
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For my lunch & dinner meals, I usually eat this way (Strange but I actually prefer my food plain). Tuna, sweet potato & veg is my favourite and I never add anything to it. I always feel satisfied after eating a meal like this (although I think that's more down to a good combo of protein and carbs.
For breakfast I usually have something with lots of flavours added - fruits, cinnamon, yogurt, peanut butter etc to my oats, and while I feel full... I always crave more afterwards / want something else.
I've never really thought about this before though, hmm!
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Was this something specified by your TI? I went through in 92 and my experience was nothing like that. I'm pretty sure I had pancakes or french toast smothered in syrup every breakfast, and had pop in addition to my two glasses of water.When I went through basic training with the Air Force, we were denied having anything with sugar. No sodas, no candy, no sugary cereals, limited selection of juices. Mostly they wanted us drinking water and eating full foods to keep energy levels up for all the physical training we were doing.
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So I was thinking about this last night after watching MrM's experiment with it. Someone posted a video of a powerlifter eating 10,000 calories in a day. For the most part, it seemed like most of the food was unseasoned, although he did put some salsa on his eggs. It seems like this would be the exact opposite of what you'd want to do on a bulk or if you're just eating large quantities of food in general.
I could definitely see why it would work on a cut though. As much as I need to tighten up my calories and stop binging on food, I don't think I could eat like that for weeks on end though. Just sounds depressing.0 -
So I finally got around to doing the palatability experiment. I've had done it a couple of times but not to the letter. Today, I followed the directions 100%. My meal consisted of 5 oz. of pan seared chicken breast, 9 oz. of boiled red potatoes and 2 servings of steamed broccoli. No seasoning on anything. I ate my meal at 4:00 and it didn't take long to finish it. You have to understand, my wife jokes about my lack of seasoning on foods so it wasn't like I had to force feed myself. We also had company so I wasn't just sitting at a table by myself focussing on the bland food in front of me. I finished the meal in about 25 minutes. Five hours later, I was still lacking in hunger. I actually still felt full. I ate a chocolate chip cookie because I wanted something sweet but even after I ate that, I felt bloated. Six and one half hours later, I still feel full and almost bloated.0
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So I finally got around to doing the palatability experiment. I've had done it a couple of times but not to the letter. Today, I followed the directions 100%. My meal consisted of 5 oz. of pan seared chicken breast, 9 oz. of boiled red potatoes and 2 servings of steamed broccoli. No seasoning on anything. I ate my meal at 4:00 and it didn't take long to finish it. You have to understand, my wife jokes about my lack of seasoning on foods so it wasn't like I had to force feed myself. We also had company so I wasn't just sitting at a table by myself focussing on the bland food in front of me. I finished the meal in about 25 minutes. Five hours later, I was still lacking in hunger. I actually still felt full. I ate a chocolate chip cookie because I wanted something sweet but even after I ate that, I felt bloated. Six and one half hours later, I still feel full and almost bloated.
Lets chat about this one in our next Skype session if you can. I'll IM you.
Thanks for giving this a shot and writing in about it.0
This discussion has been closed.