Sidesteel: Muscle endurance plateau

indoubt · July 2015

Hello,
I came here looking for advise from @SideSteel or someone else knowledgeable.
Female, 42
Weight 57kg
Size: 169cm
I've been working out for well over a year now and started dieting with a very moderate deficite at the same time. Lost 18kg. At the moment I do bodyweight circuits 2-3 times per week and running 3 times, though previously I mainly did bodyweight 4-5 times per week. This is me about 1kg more: clicky I've been maintaining for about half a month now and am trying to find maintenance calories.

I'm not sure if the title is correct as such. I tried to paint my living room walls last week. After every three or so roll strokes it felt like my arm was falling off. The muscles just hurt so much and I could not go on. The same happens mostly with my lower leg muscles when I want to walk up a mountain. I usually force myself to do 50 slow steps and then need to take a very short break. My leg muscles are fine again as soon as I reached the top, and I can continue without stops at a very brisk pace.

Mind you, after more than a year training (and on and off with YAYOG, or boxing fitness and spinning for years before that) I can still only do 10 pushups on my knees at the beginning of my workout without a break. As the workout continues I only manage 4 without a break. That's about the same as when starting out more than a year ago. No progression! My muscles give up completely after a few and I need a break. I tried a progression like convict conditioning but failed with the 50 wall pushups, tried doing lower ones as it's difficult to hold up my arms to a wall and failed as well. I think I have not great, but ok explosive strength (though a tendency to pull a muscles when trying out something new!), but when it comes to repeating something I fail completely, doesn't matter if it's painting a wall, doing kettlebell swings, or hiking up an incline.

I just don't understand it. The photo above shows I have some muscles. I seem to be building a bit more and getting stronger (I'm working on 1-legged squats at the moment), but they seem to fail me completely when I try to do something repeatedly. Btw, I noticed this for the first time when I was about 25. Tried to walk up to a glacier during a vacation and every 70 year old overtook me because their leg muscles did work properly. Wasn't in the mountains for years before that though. But I've been annoyed by this for quite a few years now and no sport has improved anything... Well.. doing spinning in the past brought me from being able to do 10 or so steps uphill to 50.

What do you think? Train differently? See a doctor (what kind?)? Just accept?

SideSteel · July 2015

This could just be a case of specificity as it pertains to programming.

For example, if you started painting daily I would expect after a few frustrating weeks you would develop the muscular adaptations that would allow you to get better at painting without your arms (probably anterior delts) getting tired as fast.

So while I dobt mean to give a vague reply, I don't think I could conclude anything without first seeing what progress you make while programming for improvement at a specific task.

Does this make sense?

DopeItUp · July 2015

That's an interesting problem. Especially for someone who is not overweight, appears to have some mass and exercises regularly.

1) What does your calorie intake look like? Overall and macros approximately?
2) What stops you in your example situations? Is it pain in the joints? Pain in the muscles? Burning? Out of breath? Or none of the above and just the muscles stop working?
3) Have you ever worn a HRM while doing these activities? What does your HR look like when you are approaching/at failure?

indoubt · July 2015

Thanks for your replies, guys! I'm having strength day tomorrow and will report back with what happens when I reach this funny failure. I'll also answer the other questions then.

SideSteel: Yes, I get what you mean. As I don't paint my living room every week I understand that I'm not used to it. Likewise mountains: I've lived in flat areas for pretty much all my life even though I've lived in many different countries and regions. But pushups: I've been trying to do more for a long time already and am not getting anywhere. Same actually with squats, burpees, toyotas and a bunch of other things. I'm ok-ish with lunges as long as I change legs every exercise or few exercises. That short break on one leg is exactly what I need to be able to go on. I always thought I could not run more than 100m, and at least I disproved that.

SideSteel · July 2015

Regarding the specific things like squats and push-ups, that's what I'd like to see what you're programming looks like.

I'm not suggesting that it all boils down to programming, there could certainly be other factors. But that's where I would start.

bonniejo · July 2015

I am no doctor, but this doesn't sound like a training issue to me. Untrained persons can paint their walls without problems, and walk more than 50 steps uphill. I would see a doctor, maybe a physical therapist or something related first. This sounds a bit like (and I'm no doctor!) chronic muscle compartment syndrome. Jen Sinkler has is it (or something similar) and has talked on podcasts about it, so I only know what she has said. Here is an article, you can see if it sounds like you.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-exertional-compartment-syndrome/basics/definition/con-20026471

andylllI · July 2015

I asked a similar question about training for endurance a few months ago and I was asked, "are you strong?" Because if you aren't strong there is nothing to endure (pretty famous quote forget attribution at the moment). Look, if you start with 5-10 push-ups on your knees but spend some time with progressive overload horizontal push training and increase your strength you will go back to knee push-ups and be able to do more reps than before. So instead of doing tons of knee rep push ups, if you did sets of low reps close to max effort of standard push ups and feet elevated push-ups for a month or two, then you could go back to knees and crank out more reps than before.

With hill walking, are you carrying a pack? If you've never trained weighted step ups or weighted split squats of course your legs are going to get fatigued walking up hill. Even mountaineers who spend days walking up hill carrying multi day expedition packs train weighted step ups and weighted hill climbs.

The other thought I had was that are you really going to failure or just thinking you are? Ripping to failure requires mental practice and discipline. What would happen if you got a spotter who would lightly assist you with one or two more reps once you thought you were at failure? You would probably be able to crank out more and that would be progressive overload that would supply a stimulus that would result in adaptation and improvement.

Now it is possible that you have some rare condition that causes endurance fatigue but most of those would have a positive family history for the same - I'm thinking things that would affect lactic acid shuttle and things like mitochondrial myopathy which would require a specialist consultation and a muscle biopsy to diagnose. But again, extremely rare.

The best place to start is programming. There are lots of people working out religiously with bad programming who won't progress, I used to be one of them. I thought I was working hard. Turns out I wasn't I was always working to the same effort and not improving.

indoubt · July 2015

DopeItUp wrote: »

That's an interesting problem. Especially for someone who is not overweight, appears to have some mass and exercises regularly.

1) What does your calorie intake look like? Overall and macros approximately?
2) What stops you in your example situations? Is it pain in the joints? Pain in the muscles? Burning? Out of breath? Or none of the above and just the muscles stop working?
3) Have you ever worn a HRM while doing these activities? What does your HR look like when you are approaching/at failure?

ok, some answers:
1) at the moment about 1800/day. I think I might not have found my maintenance calories yet. I'll look at it another two weeks and then increase if necessary. Macros are the MFP standards 50/30/20. However, I'm usually over my carbs and somewhat under on protein, and sometimes also on fats. That has to do with my living situation: I live in a country where it's too dangerous for me to go shopping and where groceries are ridiculously expensive. Adding to that someone I'd need to pay to do shopping for me I would spend most of my salary on groceries. Thus I almost exclusively eat breakfast and lunch at the office and take sandwiches from the canteen home for dinner, which is all very yummy, but a bit poor in protein. Everyone just gets one smallish chicken breast for lunch for example. On the other hand, before I came here I had a diet very rich in protein: lots of cheese, fatty fish and pork, and the workout problems were the same. I was on the upper end of a healthy weight to slightly overweight then.

2) Ok, with the pushups it feels like my arms get a big shaky, and then suddenly my whole body gets weak. Almost like the feeling you get when you have a low blood pressure and you stand up too quickly, though just very mildly. I also suddenly get out of breath then. After just a break lasting two breaths I can go on, though the number of reps without break is a bit smaller then. When I do a standing workout then I have the tendency to bend my upper body over at a 90 degree angle and support my upper body by holding my knees, even though I know that standing upright makes breathing easier. This also happens when I walk up a mountain, including getting out of breath quickly, but there's something else going on as well as one smallish muscle somewhere on the outside of both lower legs, from midway down towards the ankles starts to hurt as if it cramps up. Here I usually also just need a tiny break and can go on.

3) I don't have one. I know my HRmax about 2 years ago was a bit above 200. Tested that during a spinning lesson but had to stop at 200 for safety reasons as I had no spinning shoes and almost fell off the pedals. Some 10 years ago I saw a number of around 214 on a crosstrainer. My resting pulse is around 60. I did some measurements today right after workouts and got something like 155 to 180/minute, measured over 5 or 10 seconds.

Btw, due to something that got me into the ER about a year ago I had a lung challenge test, which tested negative for asthma, and also a heart scan and ECG. All normal. All that was discovered was a severe case of macrocytic anemia, caused by B12 malabsorption, together with the sudden appearance of a peripheral neuropathy, which is almost gone now. All is finally well under control, though I'm seeing a neurologist later this week (getting an appointment seriously takes ages). All this, feeling good, not so good, good again had no influence on my workout abilities.

indoubt · July 2015

SideSteel wrote: »

Regarding the specific things like squats and push-ups, that's what I'd like to see what you're programming looks like.

I'm not suggesting that it all boils down to programming, there could certainly be other factors. But that's where I would start.

Might just be. I don't have access to a gym with free weights, thus I'm doing bodyweight exercises, some kettlebells (have 8 & 12kg) and occasionally some big bag boxing sessions.

I usually do some kind of circuit training, with a timer set to anything from 30 to 60 seconds and a short break to get to the next exercise. Though I don't try to do as many as possible but try to keep good form. On other days I set myself a goal of x very slow reps with short breaks at the bottom/top, depending on what it is I'm doing. What I do differs completely from week to week. I might do a few workouts split into leg, core, push and pull days, or do a mix of all on one day, might do sets of 1 minute easy exercise followed directly by 30 seconds of the same muscle group but something much more difficult. I always add in something advanced, like kneeling, slightly supported one-arm pushups (when I say kneeling pushups I keep my body from knee to head in a line and roll over my knee caps instead of keeping my butt up), full pushups (I only manage 2), trying one legged quats or such things. Sometimes I add weights with the kettlebells.

Thus it's not an existing program but something I make up a few days in advance, depending on what I feel like doing. I can easily find 20 variations (incl left and right, thus it's a bit less) for the different main groups of exercises, and sometimes do variation days, just for the sake of it.

indoubt · July 2015

bonniejo wrote: »

I am no doctor, but this doesn't sound like a training issue to me. Untrained persons can paint their walls without problems, and walk more than 50 steps uphill. I would see a doctor, maybe a physical therapist or something related first. This sounds a bit like (and I'm no doctor!) chronic muscle compartment syndrome. Jen Sinkler has is it (or something similar) and has talked on podcasts about it, so I only know what she has said. Here is an article, you can see if it sounds like you.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-exertional-compartment-syndrome/basics/definition/con-20026471

Hmm.. I don't think so. Though what I wrote above about part of my mountain hiking problem might stem from one small lower leg muscle on each side sounds just a bit like it.

Aching, burning or cramping pain in the affected limb — usually the lower leg
well, yes. In one specific muscle. I'm not quite sure which one. Somewhere on the lower outer leg, but not on the thickest part but below.
Tightness in the affected limb
Hmm.. not sure what that means.
Numbness or tingling in the affected limb
no
Weakness of the affected limb
yes-ish
Foot drop, in severe cases, if nerves in your legs are affected
no
Occasionally, swelling or bulging as a result of a muscle hernia
no
and the issue vanishes during my short 'I need to stop' breaks and I can go on for a few more steps. Thus it's a mixture between an aching muscle and my whole body getting weak all of a sudden and I'm getting slightly out of breath.

Btw, this swelling or bulging: if I don't take care with what I'm doing something like that happens to my muscles. If life was a comic book, and I did a pushup there might be a bubble with the word 'pop', pointing towards the lower side of my upper arm. It just feels like I'm pulling a muscle at that moment, though it usually doesn't swell visibly. A few years ago I had a few private sessions with a trainer, and he had me move a weight behind my head and up again. And I got a 'pop' and ended up with a severely swollen upper arm for a few days. That might happen with both arm and leg muscles if I push myself too hard - which makes it difficult to go to the max.

indoubt · July 2015

andylllI wrote: »

I asked a similar question about training for endurance a few months ago and I was asked, "are you strong?" Because if you aren't strong there is nothing to endure (pretty famous quote forget attribution at the moment). Look, if you start with 5-10 push-ups on your knees but spend some time with progressive overload horizontal push training and increase your strength you will go back to knee push-ups and be able to do more reps than before. So instead of doing tons of knee rep push ups, if you did sets of low reps close to max effort of standard push ups and feet elevated push-ups for a month or two, then you could go back to knees and crank out more reps than before.

Yes, I understand that. That's the reason why I add some more advanced exercises to the mix. Though if I go towards some kind of overload I just end up injuring my muscles, and not in a good way. See the 'pop' above.

andylllI wrote: »

With hill walking, are you carrying a pack? If you've never trained weighted step ups or weighted split squats of course your legs are going to get fatigued walking up hill. Even mountaineers who spend days walking up hill carrying multi day expedition packs train weighted step ups and weighted hill climbs.

Yes, with lunch, camera, two large bottles of water and other stuff. Annoyingly I live in a flat area and cannot just train somewhere.

andylllI wrote: »

Now it is possible that you have some rare condition that causes endurance fatigue but most of those would have a positive family history for the same - I'm thinking things that would affect lactic acid shuttle and things like mitochondrial myopathy which would require a specialist consultation and a muscle biopsy to diagnose. But again, extremely rare.

I don't think so either. I noticed it at a certain time while being back in the mountains after years of flatness. I cannot remember if I had problems as a child. I don't think so. I was always weaker, less sporty and more clumsy than others during all my school career. But I'd say since I was overtaken by senior citizens (that was in the Pyrenees, and the same people probably visited Lourdes earlier that day to pray for help for their illnesses!) I don't think things have gotten worse. Not much better either even though I was not doing any sport for years before that and have been working out for a long time now. I would understand that if I just did a few kneeling pushups each day and hoped I'd managed to do more. But that's not the case.

andylllI · July 2015

Fwiw I was also overtaken by grannies in the Pyrenees. Those ladies are tough as nails.

indoubt · July 2015

andylllI wrote: »

Fwiw I was also overtaken by grannies in the Pyrenees. Those ladies are tough as nails.

That's certainly true. A different generation. I remember my granny always complaining about her old bones, but she was still fit and could dig up the vegetable garden, plant potatoes and other stuff.

heybales · July 2015

Well, it also depends on if those are folks living at elevation and you are merely visiting.

First serious backpacking trip to Rocky Mountains and all the retired folks from Estes Park come do the loop trails as their workouts during the day - so our group is carrying our packs/supplies up to our camping spot, and these folks are are pretty much hopping up the trail - our group from eastern Kansas are huffing it up out of breath. Even during a day hike when we moved faster, they are still bounding around.

tigerblue · July 2015

Could it be anxiety? It can do some strange things to you, and for no apparent reason!

indoubt · July 2015

No, I'm sure it's not anciety. I enjoy working out and I enjoy hiking, despite all. Well... I actually also like redecorating.

indoubt · July 2015

So what do you think? Should I go and see a doctor or am I simply a sissy?

heybales · July 2015

Do you think your routines right now are actually even hitting the same muscles you've been attempting to use and discover they don't seem to be there?

It could just honestly be your routines are so specific, and not really useful to those other daily uses, that they don't benefit you in that way.

You do enough other cardio it's not like you are short on red blood cells for getting oxygen to your muscles - unless it's done so easy (though it may feel hard) - that you don't notice it could be difficult.

Do you push on the cardio now, such that it is hard sometimes?

bonniejo · July 2015

indoubt wrote: »

So what do you think? Should I go and see a doctor or am I simply a sissy?

I think you should see a doctor, especially if you have insurance/can afford it.

indoubt · July 2015

Sorry, been away for a few days and thanks for your answers.

@heybales I hope I hit the same mucles. Though to be honest there's not much I can do against that. I can't get a personal trainer and I don't have access to heavy weights. Thus there's only bodyweight exercises. And whatelse can I do apart from trying out new exercises or doing the same thing over and over again until it gets boring?

I did a lower back/core day yesterday. Thanks to the short break I have nice DOMS today, though mainly in my legs. This always happens when I do core: I don't get to the point where my core muscles fail because my legs start to hurt before that (leg lift, bicycle and similar things). The same legs that have nice muscles and carry me all day, and the same core muscles that aren't actually that strong. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, I could go see a doctor next time I'm in Europe. It's all covered. I just don't know if it really makes sense.

Eat, Train, Progress.

Sidesteel: Muscle endurance plateau

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