Running Hills - Form
skippygirlsmom
Posts: 4,433 Member
Hi everyone - My 15 year old daughter runs cross country in high school and recently they got a new distance coach. The other day they were running hills and he stopped her to tell her she was doing it wrong. He told her to lean at the waist and put her head down and quicken her pace. She said no Coach if I lean at my waist and not my my hips and put my head down I'll block my airway and my diagram making it harder to breath. He told her repeatedly he knew what he was doing and she was wrong. She finally said okay Coach walked away and went back to what she was told in the past, lean forward at the hips, look about 10 feet in front of you, keep the same pace and stride. She said also depending on the hill she might shorten her stride.
I've read several articles this morning that confirms what she said and I can't find anything that agrees with the Coach. I assume from that my daughter is right? What is really funny is last year a coach from another team told her that our girls run hills like they are mountain goats they make it look so easy.
thanks
I've read several articles this morning that confirms what she said and I can't find anything that agrees with the Coach. I assume from that my daughter is right? What is really funny is last year a coach from another team told her that our girls run hills like they are mountain goats they make it look so easy.
thanks
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Her version sounds reasonable enough - except: did he also tell the other girls they were doing it wrong?0
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She said he told her to look at H (her friend) and she was running bent forward head down and said "see H is doing it right".
She is a rule/authority follower type kid, very respectful of coaches/teachers etc so part of her wanted to do what he was saying, but part of her was like "mom I knew I was right".0 -
I say that unless she is doing something that will lead to an injury, she should do it which ever way feels best for her. Maybe give the other way a try and if it's not for her, go back to 'her' way. I run races and see many different versions of form, I've never thought of any as right or wrong.0
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Bending at the waist and looking down is exactly how I've been told NOT to run hills, and rather to run similar to how your daughter is running: maintain effort, not necessarily speed, and keep your eyes up on your target! Really, as long as she performs well, I don't see why she ought to change her hill form!0
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Everyone is human, and just because someone is a coach, doesn't mean everything they say will be right. Your daughters technique sounds much better, and how I've already read (and try to do myself) that you should do hills.
If he is adamant she should be doing hills his way, he should be able to explain why it is better, just like your daughter explained her beliefs. If he can't he's an @$$, and hopefully it won't cause issues down the track.0 -
Physics speaking- you do want to call on gravity to aid you by leaning Slightly forward rather than sitting too far back, as it will help you move weight uphill but I think the tendency is to lean too much! the head thing is weird. Unless her head was really up, which is very detrimental since the head weighs so much, the typical "look 20-30 meters ahead" doesn't work on a hill because then you are looking up and throw your head weighT in the exact wrong direction. maybe ask to have her videoed?0
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You lean forward from the ankles not the hips. Skip is right, leaning from the hips will cause you to slouch and block your airwaves. Also puts more strain on the back.
I guess Skip's coach knows better than the 2012 mountain running champion and the american record holder at Mt Washington.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcBlGb0qgS8 0 -
Thanks everyone. I have seen her run enough hills and she is definitely more along the lines of the video you posted Stoshew71. Slightly forward, legs/back/neck/head in align. @stoshew71 can you give me the actual link to this I want to give it to Skip. Hey who knew I was power hiking the hill at Cotton Row LOL Interesting about the downhill, she does one course during the season that has a big downhill and she'll tend to lean back a bit on it. She will learn the downhill from this too.
I agree taeliesyn if he can't explain why it's better then he doesn't need to be telling her. Unfortunately they have two coaches now that don't seem to agree on things. This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again0 -
That is really important with the downhill running - our coach always tells us to sort of let ourselves 'fall' down the hill, and NOT to 'brake' with our heels, which is what happens if you lean back. It's very noticeable in cross country races that people who just happen to be stronger runners do well on the uphill, but his girls always make up places on the downhills, because so many other runners do it badly.0
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@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,0
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skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom0 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom
@stoshew71 She said she's working strides into her "shorter" runs with the new coach. During our long run yesterday (she did 8.5 miles) she was racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
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I've been helping out on the XC practices the past couple weeks for my daughters school and am amazed some of these kids get out of bed every day. First day the coach told them to take an easy 2.5 mile warm up and a few of them come back in a little over 15 minutes grab a quick drink and are talking like it was no biggie. I asked these guys what kind of mileage they did over the summer and they laughed and said little to none, which made me wanna cry.skippygirlsmom wrote: »[... racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
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skippygirlsmom wrote: »skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom
@stoshew71 She said she's working strides into her "shorter" runs with the new coach. During our long run yesterday (she did 8.5 miles) she was racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
Long runs are meant to be done at an easy pace. If she is racing them, she needs to slow down and bump the miles higher.
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I've been helping out on the XC practices the past couple weeks for my daughters school and am amazed some of these kids get out of bed every day. First day the coach told them to take an easy 2.5 mile warm up and a few of them come back in a little over 15 minutes grab a quick drink and are talking like it was no biggie. I asked these guys what kind of mileage they did over the summer and they laughed and said little to none, which made me wanna cry.skippygirlsmom wrote: »[... racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
Oh to be young again.0 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom
@stoshew71 She said she's working strides into her "shorter" runs with the new coach. During our long run yesterday (she did 8.5 miles) she was racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
Long runs are meant to be done at an easy pace. If she is racing them, she needs to slow down and bump the miles higher.
Not sure super-high miles are great for kids though - it's fine to bump the miles higher if you're an adult and are used to it, but it's an impact sport and it's important not to underestimate the effects of that impact on developing bones. There's a kid local to me (age 11) who does LOADS of extra mileage, longer races etc. than the other kids her age and no coach in the area thinks she'll still be running when she's 15. It's a real shame. It sounds like Skip is in a good coaching structure and doing sensible amounts of training with her mom and that's exactly what she needs right now.0 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom
@stoshew71 She said she's working strides into her "shorter" runs with the new coach. During our long run yesterday (she did 8.5 miles) she was racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
Long runs are meant to be done at an easy pace. If she is racing them, she needs to slow down and bump the miles higher.
Not sure super-high miles are great for kids though - it's fine to bump the miles higher if you're an adult and are used to it, but it's an impact sport and it's important not to underestimate the effects of that impact on developing bones. There's a kid local to me (age 11) who does LOADS of extra mileage, longer races etc. than the other kids her age and no coach in the area thinks she'll still be running when she's 15. It's a real shame. It sounds like Skip is in a good coaching structure and doing sensible amounts of training with her mom and that's exactly what she needs right now.
That's true.0 -
I've been helping out on the XC practices the past couple weeks for my daughters school and am amazed some of these kids get out of bed every day. First day the coach told them to take an easy 2.5 mile warm up and a few of them come back in a little over 15 minutes grab a quick drink and are talking like it was no biggie. I asked these guys what kind of mileage they did over the summer and they laughed and said little to none, which made me wanna cry.skippygirlsmom wrote: »[... racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
I agree with you, some of the kids on her team are amazing.skippygirlsmom wrote: »skippygirlsmom wrote: »This same coach doesn't believe in speed work unless it's a race pace training run (or at least that is what she is getting). So last week she did 3 days of distance running with him and then went to the JV practice on day 4 because they were doing speed work and she felt that running 5 miles a day for 3 days with him (and a long run over the weekend with me) was enough distance and needed speed work.
A lot of the kids are into the 5 miles 45 minutes practice is done and go home. She is more interested in becoming a better, stronger runner since she wants to run in college.
thanks again
Actually, that may not be a bad idea with the speedwork. I have done very little speedwork (the VO2 max kind).
I am a more miles to get faster kind of guy (as you can see from my posts). However, you still have to do lactate threshold workouts and I have been throwing in strides twice a week. So I will go into an all out sprint for 30 seconds during the last 2 miles of my Tue and Thurs run, slow down to catch my breath (2-3 minutes) and repeat that 5 more times.skippygirlsmom wrote: »@stoshew71 Skip said thank you!!! She really liked the downhill part too,
I am glad she did @skippygirlsmom
@stoshew71 She said she's working strides into her "shorter" runs with the new coach. During our long run yesterday (she did 8.5 miles) she was racing up the hills and then coming back to me. I told her to stop doing that on long run days it's going to wear her out... or maybe it wears me out watching her.
Long runs are meant to be done at an easy pace. If she is racing them, she needs to slow down and bump the miles higher.
Not sure super-high miles are great for kids though - it's fine to bump the miles higher if you're an adult and are used to it, but it's an impact sport and it's important not to underestimate the effects of that impact on developing bones. There's a kid local to me (age 11) who does LOADS of extra mileage, longer races etc. than the other kids her age and no coach in the area thinks she'll still be running when she's 15. It's a real shame. It sounds like Skip is in a good coaching structure and doing sensible amounts of training with her mom and that's exactly what she needs right now.
Thanks everyone.
She is/was training for a HM. She recently was invited to attend a conference with her journalism class that is the same weekend as her HM so she decided school was more important and will be attending the conference. I have read so much about kids and running and the distances. A few years back she had an injury to her achilles due to over use, I won't let that happen to her again. Since she won't be running her half we are not going to add any more mileage to her long run for while. Her long runs are at a 11+min pace because she likes to stay with me which is good. I usually do more miles than her so she stretches and does core work while she's waiting for me to come back to the parking lot where we run.
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