Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients
GaleHawkins
Posts: 8,159 Member
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
Source: Exp Clin Cardiol. 2004 Fall; 9(3): 200–205. PMCID: PMC2716748
Clinical Cardiology
I read this 11 year old research for the first time today. It supported nutritional ketosis for weight loss. I do not understand the resistance to keto yet today. This is not a quack publication.
Source: Exp Clin Cardiol. 2004 Fall; 9(3): 200–205. PMCID: PMC2716748
Clinical Cardiology
I read this 11 year old research for the first time today. It supported nutritional ketosis for weight loss. I do not understand the resistance to keto yet today. This is not a quack publication.
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lisamiddleton.com.au/thoughts-entries/2014/11/24/effect-of-lchf-on-blood-tests
A summary of a presentation.
the trends observed in blood parameter changes with LCHF from the studies presented are something along the lines of this:
- Increase in Total Cholesterol
- Increase in LDL cholesterol (‘bad’ cholesterol)
- Increase in HDL cholesterol (‘good’ cholesterol)
- Decrease in small dense LDL (‘bad’ cholesterol)
- Decrease in triglycerides
- Decrease in HbA1C0 -
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MXkE8_NdAyQ
LCHF conference in AU with Ken Sikari covers why population may be harmed by LCHF diet.0 -
That's really interesting! Thanks for the information. I particularly enjoyed the Sikari presentation.0
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I struggle with studies and all that
I have two years of six month blood tests and wot with my internal medicine specialist
I know how Low Carb with even fat and protein works on me.
It may seem uncaring, but I really do not care about convincing someone else to try it
They would have to have been diabetic and then exercise at a level most people just won't do.
It does work. It seems low carb and exercise fixed blood pressure, cholesterol, resting heart rate, excess fat, adding muscle, circulatory health, VO2 Max
In the words of my doctor. You get 5 years younger at every annual physical.
Low Carb does work. I think if you are like me and doing body recomposition you need to up the protein. But the core of low carb is the key for metabolic changes
Maybe it is just too simple?
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KittensMaster wrote: »I struggle with studies and all that
I have two years of six month blood tests and wot with my internal medicine specialist
I know how Low Carb with even fat and protein works on me.
It may seem uncaring, but I really do not care about convincing someone else to try it
They would have to have been diabetic and then exercise at a level most people just won't do.
It does work. It seems low carb and exercise fixed blood pressure, cholesterol, resting heart rate, excess fat, adding muscle, circulatory health, VO2 Max
In the words of my doctor. You get 5 years younger at every annual physical.
Low Carb does work. I think if you are like me and doing body recomposition you need to up the protein. But the core of low carb is the key for metabolic changes
Maybe it is just too simple?
I think we are all in agreement with what you say.
My issue is my doctor's nurse sent me a letter that wanting me to retest because:
- Increase in Total Cholesterol
- Increase in LDL cholesterol (‘bad’ cholesterol)
- Increase in HDL cholesterol (‘good’ cholesterol)
- Decrease in triglycerides
She states these results are unusual and the doctor wants you to retest and you may have to cut the fats in your diet and does want you to cut your fats before the retest.
My guess the decrease in triglycerides and increase in HDL was not expected by them with the increase in total cholesterol. There are pockets in the VA that knows LCHF and I will try to reach them before my 11th Sep retest. I did not see the mail until late last night and did a lot of researching.
I am working to learn how to teach.
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I tend to be on the same page as @KittensMaster when it comes to convincing others. Part of it comes from realizing that few will really commit to it and do it completely with enough vigor to see the same results. Then they will blame the diet and me for their lack of progress. So, I just live my live and don't hide what I am doing.
Note: I had someone call me up totally excited because they were ready to do what I was doing so they could finally lose weight. They were going to go zero-carb! Except, they were going to have fruit and vegetables (including potatoes and bananas) to help them stick to it. Oh, and they were going to have pasta every Sunday. That's tradition at their house and they couldn't imagine stopping it. I didn't even have the energy to explain how badly they were going to fail. They didn't even last a month before complaining that it didn't work and they hadn't lost any weight.0 -
I tend to be on the same page as @KittensMaster when it comes to convincing others. Part of it comes from realizing that few will really commit to it and do it completely with enough vigor to see the same results. Then they will blame the diet and me for their lack of progress. So, I just live my live and don't hide what I am doing.
Note: I had someone call me up totally excited because they were ready to do what I was doing so they could finally lose weight. They were going to go zero-carb! Except, they were going to have fruit and vegetables (including potatoes and bananas) to help them stick to it. Oh, and they were going to have pasta every Sunday. That's tradition at their house and they couldn't imagine stopping it. I didn't even have the energy to explain how badly they were going to fail. They didn't even last a month before complaining that it didn't work and they hadn't lost any weight.
Ha!
I'm gonna be just like you!
Except everything will be different
Ha!
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I tend to be on the same page as @KittensMaster when it comes to convincing others. Part of it comes from realizing that few will really commit to it and do it completely with enough vigor to see the same results. Then they will blame the diet and me for their lack of progress. So, I just live my live and don't hide what I am doing.
Note: I had someone call me up totally excited because they were ready to do what I was doing so they could finally lose weight. They were going to go zero-carb! Except, they were going to have fruit and vegetables (including potatoes and bananas) to help them stick to it. Oh, and they were going to have pasta every Sunday. That's tradition at their house and they couldn't imagine stopping it. I didn't even have the energy to explain how badly they were going to fail. They didn't even last a month before complaining that it didn't work and they hadn't lost any weight.
Yep. I usually just give them a "bless your heart" and move on.0 -
I never try and convince others how to eat, and don't really give a flying #$%@ what they eat anyway. No one cares that I do keto but were all delighted that I had shrunk so much since the last time they saw me, at a family gathering this weekend. No one hassled me to eat the muffins that were baked, and I didn't hassle anyone to gobble meat and butter, and we were all happy as Larry :-)
I lost weight just as well NOT doing keto, I just had issues binging on bread so gave keto a try.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »My issue is my doctor's nurse sent me a letter that wanting me to retest because:
- Increase in Total Cholesterol
- Increase in LDL cholesterol (‘bad’ cholesterol)
- Increase in HDL cholesterol (‘good’ cholesterol)
- Decrease in triglycerides
She states these results are unusual and the doctor wants you to retest and you may have to cut the fats in your diet and does want you to cut your fats before the retest.
My guess the decrease in triglycerides and increase in HDL was not expected by them with the increase in total cholesterol. There are pockets in the VA that knows LCHF and I will try to reach them before my 11th Sep retest. I did not see the mail until late last night and did a lot of researching.
These are the most common results of a low-carb diet. Request a VAP or NMR, and it'll break down the LDL for the doc.
What you SHOULD find is that the LDL CONCENTRATION increased because they are loaded up with more fat (i.e., the large fluffy type), but the LDL PARTICLE COUNT ideally went down or didn't change. The COUNT, not the CONCENTRATION is the risk factor!
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@wabmester I want to see the breakdown anyway. I was told the VA does not do the particle size/count so I will see. Hopefully I will find the hospital that has done some LCHF research. Ken Sikari's presentation got me off to a good start to be able to talk doctor to doctor hopefully.0
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Gale..good luck with the VA…I just talked with a nephrologist who wants me to one back to the VA and retest my kidney function… the last two medical staff wanted me to add carbs, and this and that… I have resisted completely <I am Borg>
I even told her I am NOT going to eat more carbs and all the RD's do is PUSH 60% carbs..so what is the point? She assured me we will "tweak my diet"….I am high in potassium, without eating any foods that are high…so I will do what I can to support a failing kidney,
She talked about my " recovering from a very poor function"…well that DID NOT happen by itself… I switched to a plant based LCHF which reduced oxidative stress of meat waste…dropped meds, and focused on keeping carbs very low.
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The Borg....
The best super enemy ever!!!!0 -
My last blood test showed elevated cholesterol. My doctor wanted to put me on medication, but I asked her to leave it for now and retest in 6 months. I don't know how to explain to her that it's normal for LCHF and not an issue.0
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GaleHawkins wrote: »ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
Source: Exp Clin Cardiol. 2004 Fall; 9(3): 200–205. PMCID: PMC2716748
Clinical Cardiology
I read this 11 year old research for the first time today. It supported nutritional ketosis for weight loss. I do not understand the resistance to keto yet today. This is not a quack publication.
Thanks GaleHawkins, that is very interesting, I am particularly interested in the fact that sugar feeds cancer tumours, that is a major priority (just below the weight loss aspect) that keeps me sticking to Keto. Most of my family have had or do have cancers, so I am very aware of anything that will keep it at bay.0 -
Doctors, nurses, dieticians/nutritionists...can recommend treatment for different things. It's your choice to follow (or not) their recommendations. We all must do what is best for us. That's what matters.0
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When I told them to keep their Enbrel for those who could not manage their pain by diet it did not make them happy but holding an OD degree they understand I drive my own healthcare choices. As long as they can write what they offer in my folder and that the patient refused they know their peers can not come after their license.
If possible I would like to help pave the way for others who may not be so bold about patient rights. The taxpayers are spending a lot of $$$. LCHF can save us a lot of money potentially.I think I read last night were like 15% of patients in the system have a BMI of 40 or >. I was at 35. Actually the nurse it I saw for my annual is open to what I am doing. Once they understand my decisions are on me and not own them it will be helpful I think. I have not a reverse gear. I have more research to do.
It does bug me Australia and South Africa is carrying the LCHF research ball for the world.
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I believe the U.S. will eventually get on board @GaleHawkins! At least I hope. It can't be denied forever! Yes, patient rights are just that, rights to choose what we feel works best for us. The medical community can't deny the results once they see them. The doctors recommendations are just that, recommendations based on their limited knowledge. We always have the right to choose as long as it's reasonable, not detrimental0
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I believe the U.S. will eventually get on board @GaleHawkins! At least I hope. It can't be denied forever! Yes, patient rights are just that, rights to choose what we feel works best for us. The medical community can't deny the results once they see them. The doctors recommendations are just that, recommendations based on their limited knowledge. We always have the right to choose as long as it's reasonable, not detrimental
You were on a roll until the last four words. In the USA there can be no forced treatment of an adult. Well if the government is paying for the services there may be exceptions. It has been done as in sterilization of some groups of people in the past.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »KittensMaster wrote: »I struggle with studies and all that
I have two years of six month blood tests and wot with my internal medicine specialist
I know how Low Carb with even fat and protein works on me.
It may seem uncaring, but I really do not care about convincing someone else to try it
They would have to have been diabetic and then exercise at a level most people just won't do.
It does work. It seems low carb and exercise fixed blood pressure, cholesterol, resting heart rate, excess fat, adding muscle, circulatory health, VO2 Max
In the words of my doctor. You get 5 years younger at every annual physical.
Low Carb does work. I think if you are like me and doing body recomposition you need to up the protein. But the core of low carb is the key for metabolic changes
Maybe it is just too simple?
I think we are all in agreement with what you say.
My issue is my doctor's nurse sent me a letter that wanting me to retest because:
- Increase in Total Cholesterol
- Increase in LDL cholesterol (‘bad’ cholesterol)
- Increase in HDL cholesterol (‘good’ cholesterol)
- Decrease in triglycerides
She states these results are unusual and the doctor wants you to retest and you may have to cut the fats in your diet and does want you to cut your fats before the retest.
My guess the decrease in triglycerides and increase in HDL was not expected by them with the increase in total cholesterol. There are pockets in the VA that knows LCHF and I will try to reach them before my 11th Sep retest. I did not see the mail until late last night and did a lot of researching.
I am working to learn how to teach.
Isn't it the ratios that are most important and not the overall cholesterol. Also, when HDL Good Choselerol goes UP then trigs go DOWN. That's a good thing!
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KETOGENICGURL wrote: »Gale..good luck with the VA…I just talked with a nephrologist who wants me to one back to the VA and retest my kidney function… the last two medical staff wanted me to add carbs, and this and that… I have resisted completely <I am Borg>
I even told her I am NOT going to eat more carbs and all the RD's do is PUSH 60% carbs..so what is the point? She assured me we will "tweak my diet"….I am high in potassium, without eating any foods that are high…so I will do what I can to support a failing kidney,
She talked about my " recovering from a very poor function"…well that DID NOT happen by itself… I switched to a plant based LCHF which reduced oxidative stress of meat waste…dropped meds, and focused on keeping carbs very low.
Thanks for sharing. Did you recover from poor kidney function via LCHF?
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It can be determined to be against medical advice any insurance (all types) usually refuse to pay. Thereby in a sense making the Peron, who is making detrimental decisions, at least accept the medical recommendations to ensure insurance payments For the uninsured it's a whole different story. But, when someone is making those detrimental decisions regarding their health, or the health of others, they can be held for 72 hours, with forced medical care (at least in Mississippi), then a judge decides the future of your care on a case by case basis. There are instances of forced medical care, they just aren't frequent and dont get talked about much. Plus, most of us wouldn't choose things that would be detrimental to our health anyway! 0
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=tC_qBC1EEvw
This seems to be a fairly new LCHF conference speech. I know saturated fats are associated with increased in cardiovascular disease.
Eating a ton of saturated fat this has been a HUGE nagging concern of mine.
This session covers that it is the saturated fat that is in our blood and tissues that increases heart disease.
The source of this saturated fat is not from saturated fat that we eat but is from "carbs" that we over eat and the body converts to saturated fat. Being insulin resistant means we convert even more extra carbs to saturated fats.
After a year and about 500 hours of reading research that I have found on diet subjects I think the story is starting to come clear as to the source of saturated fat in our blood and tissues is from excess carbs that we eat.0 -
Pennell asked: Did you recover from poor kidney function via LCHF?
?? I specifically said: "I switched to a plant based LCHF which reduced oxidative stress of meat waste…dropped meds, and focused on keeping carbs very low."
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Losing weight also slows renal problems.
Multiple Pubmed studies describe the difference of "veggie based" vs "meat based" LC as to how the kidneys are burdened in removing wastes. And because FATS are the the critical aspect of any LCHF diet..then the type of protein you eat outside of fat should be based on personal nutrition needs.
Healthy people can chow down on as much meat as they like……but I do not see those people here.
This is why knowing your kidney function when you begin is valuable to your long term health.0 -
I think meat can be harder on the kidneys. Typically 6 pieces of bacon is it for me daily. Being 64 means mine have filtered many gallons/liters of blood more than a young person.0
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EbonyDahlia wrote: »My last blood test showed elevated cholesterol. My doctor wanted to put me on medication, but I asked her to leave it for now and retest in 6 months. I don't know how to explain to her that it's normal for LCHF and not an issue.
Your cholesterol goes up (or into chaos) while you are actively losing weight. There are whole threads on that within this group. There are some ratios that are better indicators of risks etc. But until your weight has been stable 6 months, to me those results don't mean a hill of beans, really. Other than the improvements in HDL and trigs. LDL goes up as part of the process...
So long confusing comment later, remind them you are still actively losing weight, and that you'd prefer not to worry about it until your weight has been stable a while. Most medical professionals at least know that much.0 -
letswakeupfolks.blogspot.com/
The formatting is a bit strange but I have never seen so much detailed medical views/info in one place. Dr. Richard Head M.D. is listed at the author and I am assuming it is the one below.
health.usnews.com/doctors/richard-head-382714
The below is from chapter 27
"Another appetite stimulator is the ingestion of trilycerides (a form of fat). Normally the brain uses glucose for its energy source. With obesity, the blood is filled with high amounts of triglycerides which act on the brains reward areas causing overconsumption of sugary and fatty foods. It also causes a decrease in locomotive activity yet the desire for food remains. This action is similar to drug addiction and acts on the same area of the brain"0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »@wabmester I want to see the breakdown anyway. I was told the VA does not do the particle size/count so I will see. Hopefully I will find the hospital that has done some LCHF research. Ken Sikari's presentation got me off to a good start to be able to talk doctor to doctor hopefully.
Hi Gale,
While I was on the plane for many hours going to and from China, I read most of a book called, Cholesterol Clarity. What an eye opener that was! I highly recommend everyone to chill out about Lipid panels. Especially if they start a Keto diet and are in the process of losing weight. The book points out that most doctors don't know what their talking about and that your lipids get all wacky during the pendency of losing weight on a Keto diet. And the medical establishment is using very old data/studies/research. There's just too much in the book to list here.
Get the book on Kindle or whatever. And its easy to read. Parts of it get a little technical, but I think it is a great read.
Keep calm and Keto on!
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
103 pounds down, 21 to go.0 -
Thanks Dan. I will read it and his keto book this week0
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