Help...is it possible to get 'fat' cravings I LOVE DAIRY

wanderingpanda · February 2016

Been trying this way of eating for two weeks. Bit confused between alternate advice re calories (count/don't count while adapting to fat burning etc).

However my main worry is my increasing apetite for cream, cream cheese, cheese, mascarpone, crème fraîche...etc

I am not sure whether it's the fat...or the carbs (lactose) in these foods.

I have always had a strong desire for dairy of all sorts...but kept it under control due to the general advice about 'high fat' being bad for you. But now...wow...it's like I am out of control...just want to eat more and more. Macros are 5% carb, 30% protein 65% fats.

My calorie intake is increasing! Last couple of days I'm struggling to stay below 3500. However yesterday evening was first time ketone went above a trace. That was after an evening of: 2 duck breast, 227ml double cream, 75g chedder cheese!!!

Oh and no overall weight loss for these 2 weeks.

I'm 5'4" 189lb 44% body fat. Lightly active ( walk in hilly woods for 90mins per day) but job is mainly seated. On HRT (4 years...weight before HRT 146lb)... have tried to come off but hot flashes/night sweats too horrendous. Have been grain free for around 5 years (apart from very rare occasions ie mince pies at xmas)

Eat only grass fed/pastured animal products. Organic veg etc.

I LOVE DAIRY.

ladipoet · February 2016

Dear OP: given your height and activity level combined with the HUGE amount of calories you are eating, I am not surprised to know that you haven't lost any weight even following LCHF. The statements: Everything in moderation! holds true no matter what way of eating a person chooses to follow. You MUST still eat at a deficit (i.e. burning more calories than you take in) to achieve weight-loss and even with a 90 minute walk every day, there's no way you'd even come close to burning anywhere near 3500 calories a day. I've got 2.5 inches on you in height and I too classify myself at lightly active (or sedentary) even though I walk for between 1 and 1.5 hours every day. To give you some example of where you calorie intake should be: I tend to eat somewhere in the neighborhood of between roughly 1380 calories - 1440 calories. Your calorie intake should be lower than mine! My macros are: 80% fat, 10% protein, 10% carbs. By your own admission, you are consuming over twice the amount of calories your body needs so are you then really truly surprised that you've not lost weight?! I am trying hard not to judge here, really. Perhaps there is something going on with your body specifically in connection with diary. I suggest you consider trying to eat other sources of healthy fat to see if you can curb you desire specifically for dairy and also cut your calorie intake. Good sources of healthy fat that do not come from dairy are fatty cuts of meat, eggs, nuts and seeds, avocado, olive oil, red palm oil, coconut oil, coconut milk, coconut cream, coconut butter. I apologize if anything I've said here is offensive to you....but quite frankly, I was shocked as hell after reading your post! I'm sure some of the other members will chime in here with their own advice, perspectives and personal experiences. Best of luck to you and don't give up without tweaking what you are doing!

Phrick · February 2016

practicing a bit of self control will get you far. You're better than your cravings, and YOU control them not the other way around.

wanderingpanda · February 2016

Thanks Ladypoet...not offended.

Up till day 10 I kept under the 1800 calories (amount suggested by an online keto calculator). No weight loss at all...no ketones in urine.

The thing is...much of what I have read or listened to on podcasts states not to worry about calories at first...when the body is converting from carb to fat burning. That you don't want to stress the body too much, causing metabolism to slow down.

So, I thought I would try to stop watching the calories and just think about the fats and getting into ketosis.

Well, days 11-14...I just ate whenever I felt hungry...as long as it was fats or protein. Didn't check the calories at all.

Last night had ketones in urine for first time 1.5mmol/l. Still no weight change up or down over this period.

Just really shocked by how much dairy I seemed to be able to eat...without feeling any nausea. Wondered if anyone else had experienced anything like this when starting. Is it possible that I needed this amount of fat to make the 'switch' from using glucose to ketones?

Obviously will not expect to continue eating this amount of dairy or calories. Will buy no more cream etc. Use other healthy fats.

LowCarbInScotland · February 2016

Hi @wanderingpanda I just plugged your stats into this calculator http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ and it's suggesting that based on the lightly active selection that your daily calorie usage is 1802, so that's how much you would want to eat if you wanted to maintain your current weight, not lose weight. (I estimated your age)

But even at 1800 calories a day, 65% fat would be 130g of fat. Depending on the brand, your 227 ml of double cream would have accounted for 110-115g. Duck breasts are fatty cuts of meat, so the duck plus the cheese would have put you way over your fat grams for the day in just one meal, but I know you realise that the 3,500 calories was overdoing it.

My recommendation as you adjust to this woe is to think of fat as a tool for increasing your satiety at each meal as opposed to something you need to strive for eating a ton of (unless you were using this diet to address a medical condition). Sounds like you enjoy cooking, so you'll probably learn how easy it is to incorporate the right amount of fats into each meal.

Though you're not having difficulties with the dairy yet, and clearly you don't have an allergy issue, I do recommend caution as it can easily cause constipation with this woe and some people find it does stall their weight loss.

Try to find some other aspects of this woe that meet your cravings. I like to treat myself to a filet mignon from the butcher and I'll whip up a batch of herb butter for on top. I use goose fat to cook my food in because it adds an amazing rich texture to everything I eat. I would never have dreamed I could lose weight cooking that way.

I'm guessing you probably didn't need to use 227 g of double cream on those duck breasts. If you were making a sauce to pour over them, let the sauce be a garnish, not a soup that needs to be eaten in its entirety. The nice thing about this woe is that we can enjoy rich sauces without gaining weight, but as long as we're not completely overdoing it.

Good luck getting settled into your new woe. There are so many wonderful, supportive, knowledgeable people here who are so ready to help you if you're ready too.

KarlaYP · February 2016

You've followed the advice. Now is the time to allow the lack of hunger to occur. With the consumption of fat, instead of carbs, we will experience less hunger signals. The key is listening to those signals. Now, try to cut back on amounts gradually to decrease calorie consumption. Especially since you're now in ketosis, the amount of hunger should decrease. Craving fat isn't unheard of, since our bodies prefer it as a fuel source. The key is now learning how much it needs to function, and still lose weight! Hang in there!

eeejer · February 2016

I don't know why people think you can just pig out on keto and lose weight. You still have to eat under your TDEE in order to burn fat.

Sunny_Bunny_ · February 2016

wanderingpanda wrote: »

Thanks Ladypoet...not offended.

Up till day 10 I kept under the 1800 calories (amount suggested by an online keto calculator). No weight loss at all...no ketones in urine.

The thing is...much of what I have read or listened to on podcasts states not to worry about calories at first...when the body is converting from carb to fat burning. That you don't want to stress the body too much, causing metabolism to slow down.

So, I thought I would try to stop watching the calories and just think about the fats and getting into ketosis.

Well, days 11-14...I just ate whenever I felt hungry...as long as it was fats or protein. Didn't check the calories at all.

Last night had ketones in urine for first time 1.5mmol/l. Still no weight change up or down over this period.

Just really shocked by how much dairy I seemed to be able to eat...without feeling any nausea. Wondered if anyone else had experienced anything like this when starting. Is it possible that I needed this amount of fat to make the 'switch' from using glucose to ketones?

Obviously will not expect to continue eating this amount of dairy or calories. Will buy no more cream etc. Use other healthy fats.

I personally think that ^ is the best idea. Most of your fats shouldn't be coming from dairy. They should be coming from meat, coconut oil, butter, avocado... That stuff.
Many people do have issues with dairy even though they don't realize it. Now, that doesn't mean a slight issue is a sure sign you have to give it up, but controlling the amount is a good idea. And in general, I think a lot of people gravitate toward dairy fats as their main source in the beginning because it feels "safe". The idea of eating all these saturated fats from the other sources I mentioned is so foreign, but in all honesty, you won't achieve the hunger control Keto is known for until you embrace it.
The idea of not worrying about calories is not to suggest that they don't matter, and I realize you know that. I do think it's a good idea to not bother counting them while adapting. It just adds more stress to the new behaviors you're trying to develop. But, if you aren't eating the right fats, you're eating too much of the lesser satisfying fats, you WILL NOT achieve the level of appetite control that is required to be able to naturally eat fewer calories without bothering with counting them.
If I were to make the most basic, simple 1,2,3 step "How to start Keto", it would be kinda like this.

1.) MACROS: 20g maximum carbs. .8g protein per pound lean body mass maximum.
2.) FATS: Start every day with 1Tbs coconut oil and 1Tbs butter in whatever you want it in. Eat no artificial fats. Main fat sources should be meat, butter, coconut oil. Other acceptable fats secondary to those are full fat dairy, cheese, mayo salad dressing, avocado and olives/olive oil.
3.) ELECTROLYES: get an absolute bare minimum of 3500mg of sodium a day. There is no reason to limit it in any way and you may actually require as much as twice that amount. If you maintain that well, your other electrolytes, magnesium and potassium won't be sacrificed. But almost everyone is already magnesium deficient anyway, so I believe supplementing 600mg of magnesium glycinate, citrate or any "ate" form is a good idea no matter how you choose to eat and necessary if experiencing any symptom causing sodium loss.

We all do some tweeking and adjusting once we get started. So the above is just what I think a great, super simple, least causing issues, quickest way to get on the right path start would be.
Protein is one that varies widely from person to person. But the .8 is right in the middle.

totaloblivia · February 2016

I feel ya‘! I love dairy way too much too!

wanderingpanda · February 2016

Yesterday's stats: 1548 kcal, carbs 29g, fat 99g, protein 119g. No ketones in urine.
Weight finally moved...0.5lb up.

But feeling pretty OK. Just having steak for brekky. Have set my calorie limit at 1600 for the mo. Will see what happens.

Thanks for all positive advice ☺

nicsflyingcircus · February 2016

wanderingpanda wrote: »

Yesterday's stats: 1548 kcal, carbs 29g, fat 99g, protein 119g. No ketones in urine.
Weight finally moved...0.5lb up.

But feeling pretty OK. Just having steak for brekky. Have set my calorie limit at 1600 for the mo. Will see what happens.

Thanks for all positive advice ☺

To get into nutritional ketosis (in the beginning) it is generally recommended to intake no more than 20g carbs, period. Not net, gross.

lithezebra · February 2016

Yes, it is possible to crave fat. I've always loved fat, especially butterfat in the form of heavy cream and cheese. That's one of the reasons that I decided to try low carb. I do track my calories and maintain a slight deficit. Speaking only for myself, I find it helpful to cycle some carbs through my diet, and have higher carb days, still under 100 grams, and very low carb days, in the under 30 range. Eating some carbs curbs my fat cravings, and when I start craving carbs, going back to very low carb curbs those cravings. I'm weird, and that might not be a good idea for other people. In my case, it stops me from nibbling cheese all day.

KnitOrMiss · February 2016

Remember, too, that some folks are affected by excess protein (it converts to glucose if your body feels like it needs it)... I've found recently that the days I'm way over on protein I feel the crummiest and develop the most cravings.

SamandaIndia · February 2016

If I eat cheese or cashews I am more likely to not recognise full signals. My mind wants more even if body not so convinced. I dodged both for 3 months as I learned this way of eating. Maybe you might want to try that and eat more "flgood" fats instead. Good luck!

ladipoet · February 2016

OP, any luck with doing better at reigning in those fat cravings since you posted?? Please let us know how you are doing.

wanderingpanda · February 2016

Well...I gave myself a good slap for being such a greedy girl

wanderingpanda · February 2016

Oops...lost the rest of my post there. Staying away from the dairy.

Yesterday's stats 19g carbs, 80g fats, 134g protein. Total cals 1427. No urinary ketones. No weight change.

So, I need to swap out some protein for more good fats?

ladipoet · February 2016

wanderingpanda wrote: »

So, I need to swap out some protein for more good fats?

Yes. One of the five (5) most common error people make when trying follow this way of eating (WOE) are:

(1) Eating too many carbs;
(2) Eating too much protein**;
(3) Not eating enough fat (not a problem in your case, lol);
(4) Not replenishing your electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium, etc.); and
(5) Not being patient.

I think pretty much all long-time ketofiles have made all of the above mistakes before. I know I have.

I suggest you try to swap your protein and fat numbers. That is, try to get your protein around 80g and your fat up in the 120g range or so. Play with it and seek what works best for you.

Also, just want to say CONGRATULATIONS on doing a much better job today of staying away from dairy and keep up the good work!! (And I really mean that!)

gsp90x · February 2016

Hi OP!

Ok, I'm going to be the bad, unpopular person here and say Lay off the dairy. Why?

Because you LOVE LOVE LOVE IT. To me that is a signal of a trigger food that is not doing well for your body. I believe if our body is working optimally we will obviously have cravings but they're different. (Difficult to explain).

I'm not surprised that you did not loose weight, but that is for other reasons. Yes, of course you need to eat relatively under your daily calorie, BUT in MANY people, even a moderate amount of dairy will prevent weight loss. (I am one of those unfortunate people and I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dairy) A second reason you may not have experienced that initial whoosh of weight loss in the first week is because you were already grain free for so long. In many people grains cause an inflammatory response. When this happens the body sends water to the affected areas (in this case everywhere) so the large weight loss in the first week is basically the body becoming less inflamed. So instead of being frustrated about no loss, you could look at is as "holy cow! Look how well I am doing and didn't even know it!" It's often what you DON'T eat that's just as important as what you do eat. And in this case, I would strongly encourage you to do a boring old dairy free week or two (hell, I know) and see what happens. Maybe not right away, let yourself get into the groove and adjusted first. You don't want to make yourself crazy. But I do encourage you to try it especially if you still don't get the results you want.

Just so you know though, I don't count anything. The first few weeks I ate like a cow. My body adjusted and now.... I have to be moderately conscious to make sure I eat enough. I know my calories have been too low when I stop loosing weight. I'm just not hungry anymore (except during shark week... then look out!) I don't recommend that for everyone. Some people need to count. Counting makes me crazy though. But I also don't make "recipes". I eat meat, eggs, fat and green veggies and that is it. So even on full tilt, I don't get too many carbs. But if I deviate, my cravings and hunger are ginormous!

Out of all the suggestions though, I strongly encourage you to sit and think about them. Decide what you feel comfortable with, what works with your life and start trying them out. Listen to and trust your body. Do you feel better or worse? Are you getting the results you want? Everybody has to tweak their WOE to suit them best. Be brave! You're awesome and your body is brilliant!

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