First marathon training.
workout_junkee
Posts: 473 Member
I am running my first full in October. I have ran several half marathons in the past. I have used HH plans for those. I am looking at HH Novice 2 and JG for my full. Both seem to have pros and cons. Any input from seasoned marathoners? My current long runs are 10-12 miles. Should I scale back and start from the beginning for training. Long runs all start lower than I am doing. TIA.
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I was in a similar boat for my most recent marathon and continued doing my typical runs. Once I reached the week where the plan's mileage matched my mileage I started following the plan.1
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This is exactly what I did when I started training for my full. I think I started in week 6 or 7 of the HH novice 2 plan.I was in a similar boat for my most recent marathon and continued doing my typical runs. Once I reached the week where the plan's mileage matched my mileage I started following the plan.
I'm not a seasoned marathoner yet (have my first on 5/1), but wanted to offer my two cents on selection of training plans. With the running experience you've described, you may want to consider doing the HH intermediate 1 plan. As mentioned above, I am using the HH novice 2 to train for my marathon but I think I could have bumped up to his intermediate plan. Because I am a first time marathoner, I automatically went with novice plan because, well, I am a novice at the marathon distance. However, I think the novice plans are geared more toward novice runners, if that makes sense, and the sentiment that you should just focus on finishing when you run your first marathon. While I agree to an extent, I think some first time marathoners can and should aim for a time completion goals. Also, I tailored the novice 2 plan to include a total of five weekly runs and more runs at the middle distance (8-12 miles).
Good luck with your training!!!
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VanderTuig1976 wrote: »Because I am a first time marathoner, I automatically went with novice plan because, well, I am a novice at the marathon distance. However, I think the novice plans are geared more toward novice runners, if that makes sense, and the sentiment that you should just focus on finishing when you run your first marathon. While I agree to an extent, I think some first time marathoners can and should aim for a time completion goals.
Totally agree with this - you're not a beginner at running even if you are a beginner at marathons. I'd pick a plan that starts at around the weekly mileage you're at now and builds from there (I did a Pfitzinger & Douglas plan starting at 55 miles per week for my first marathon).
I also don't really agree with the 'it's your first so there's no point having a goal except to finish' thing. I mean, obviously don't get hung up on a randomly chosen round number, but if you don't have ANY realistic plan for your finishing time, you won't know how fast (or not) to set off and there's a much bigger risk of going out faster than you can handle, because everyone feels great for the first 10 miles.0 -
VanderTuig1976 wrote: »This is exactly what I did when I started training for my full. I think I started in week 6 or 7 of the HH novice 2 plan.I was in a similar boat for my most recent marathon and continued doing my typical runs. Once I reached the week where the plan's mileage matched my mileage I started following the plan.
I'm not a seasoned marathoner yet (have my first on 5/1), but wanted to offer my two cents on selection of training plans. With the running experience you've described, you may want to consider doing the HH intermediate 1 plan.
Possibly, but I think the determining factor is going to be your current weekly mileage rather than the distance of your long run. If you are averaging 30 mpw or more, then you should have no problem with an intermediate plan. But if your weekly mileage is less than that, you might want to work on building up your base before attempting a more aggressive training plan. In all honesty, though, I am not familiar with either of these plans. I am just going on the assumption that the intermediate plan includes more weekly miles.0 -
I'm i a similar situation to you (except less experienced as haven't run a half yet - planned for two weeks time). I'm using the hh novice 2 plan for my first marathon in October and decided to start (next week) from the mileage I'm at (long run 11 miles) and double up on weeks, including 3 lots of the longest week, with a drop back week in between each. Now I'm obviously as in the dark as you are so ignore at leisure! I guess I just wanted to give you a different perspective and perhaps the idea that you can modify it to back it a gradual build from where you are, rather than a steeper build from scratch.0
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Finally read this, Stan! So helpful. Thank you for sharing it.0 -
@Stoshew71's post on training plans is good reading. It's long, but worth the time!
I used HH Novice 1 or 2 for my first 2 marathons, moving runs around to accomodate my schedule/needs. It's a good plan if your goal is basically just to finish.
Personally, I think most beginner plans don't quite get the mileage right. I'd recommend getting your weekly mileage to 40 mpw over the summer before your plan starts, and find a plan that will do up to 45 or 50 mpw. Most of the miles will be easy and slow (don't think you need to be doing all kinds of speedwork or something crazy), but more miles -- if you've built a proper base of slow easy miles beforehand -- will serve you best. It will mean less soreness after your longest runs and better energy overall, even if that sounds preposterous now!
I'll just leave you with this: If your 18-20 mile runs are 50% or more of your weekly mileage, you'll be in for a load of soreness and at higher risk of injury; trust me!! All my overtraining injuries were from my first 2 marathon training cycles, when my long runs were 50-60% of my weekly mileage. Not a good plan!0 -
I don't think beginner plans 'get it wrong' as such, just that they're aimed at people who don't have the base mileage to do more effective marathon training (which is where @Stoshew'71's objection that they build up the long runs faster than recommended comes from - they're a compromise for undertrained people, not a recommendation), so I agree with everyone else that if you know you're planning to train for a marathon (or a half marathon) and it's not for ages, then it makes total sense to build a base first.
However, I'd disagree with the 'just start a plan early' technique, because you don't need to be following a marathon-specific plan to build a base, you just need to get used to doing more easy running. And you don't want to end up peaking way too early or burning yourself out by doing hundreds of long runs (which is what you'd get if you did a marathon plan and repeated multiple weeks) when you could just be working on your total weekly mileage. Far less injury risk to build up to a comfortable 50 miles per week (for example) with a long run of 12-14 miles (that would be my 'normal' training when not preparing for a marathon). Or 35-40 miles with a regular long run of 10 miles. Or whatever suits your experience level and pace.
It's also fine for a marathon plan to have tempo or speed sessions in it if it's working on the assumption that you've not been sitting around eating biscuits while waiting for training to 'start'.0 -
I don't think beginner plans 'get it wrong' as such, just that they're aimed at people who don't have the base mileage to do more effective marathon training (which is where @Stoshew'71's objection that they build up the long runs faster than recommended comes from - they're a compromise for undertrained people, not a recommendation), so I agree with everyone else that if you know you're planning to train for a marathon (or a half marathon) and it's not for ages, then it makes total sense to build a base first.
However, I'd disagree with the 'just start a plan early' technique, because you don't need to be following a marathon-specific plan to build a base, you just need to get used to doing more easy running. And you don't want to end up peaking way too early or burning yourself out by doing hundreds of long runs (which is what you'd get if you did a marathon plan and repeated multiple weeks) when you could just be working on your total weekly mileage. Far less injury risk to build up to a comfortable 50 miles per week (for example) with a long run of 12-14 miles (that would be my 'normal' training when not preparing for a marathon). Or 35-40 miles with a regular long run of 10 miles. Or whatever suits your experience level and pace.
It's also fine for a marathon plan to have tempo or speed sessions in it if it's working on the assumption that you've not been sitting around eating biscuits while waiting for training to 'start'.
I appreciate this input. This is where I am (first marathon in November, increasing miles, did 14 yesterday which is 39% of my weekly mileage). I'm just taking it easy - not following a plan yet - trying to increase and be comfortable with it. My question is this: I understand from multiple sources that now's not the time to do hard workouts (intervals, tempo, hill work), but those workouts make me happy, lol. Does everyone agree on this - leaving the hard workouts out as you build up? (I usually do one per week.) Thanks.0 -
@4leighbee - not necessarily, though it depends how long you've been training for and what your other goals are. November isn't for ages and perhaps you have other, shorter races coming up in the summer? Though if you have no plan in particular, does that mean you are choosing your hard workouts pretty much at random?0
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I don't think beginner plans 'get it wrong' as such, just that they're aimed at people who don't have the base mileage to do more effective marathon training (which is where @Stoshew'71's objection that they build up the long runs faster than recommended comes from - they're a compromise for undertrained people, not a recommendation), so I agree with everyone else that if you know you're planning to train for a marathon (or a half marathon) and it's not for ages, then it makes total sense to build a base first.
However, I'd disagree with the 'just start a plan early' technique, because you don't need to be following a marathon-specific plan to build a base, you just need to get used to doing more easy running. And you don't want to end up peaking way too early or burning yourself out by doing hundreds of long runs (which is what you'd get if you did a marathon plan and repeated multiple weeks) when you could just be working on your total weekly mileage. Far less injury risk to build up to a comfortable 50 miles per week (for example) with a long run of 12-14 miles (that would be my 'normal' training when not preparing for a marathon). Or 35-40 miles with a regular long run of 10 miles. Or whatever suits your experience level and pace.
It's also fine for a marathon plan to have tempo or speed sessions in it if it's working on the assumption that you've not been sitting around eating biscuits while waiting for training to 'start'.
I appreciate this input. This is where I am (first marathon in November, increasing miles, did 14 yesterday which is 39% of my weekly mileage). I'm just taking it easy - not following a plan yet - trying to increase and be comfortable with it. My question is this: I understand from multiple sources that now's not the time to do hard workouts (intervals, tempo, hill work), but those workouts make me happy, lol. Does everyone agree on this - leaving the hard workouts out as you build up? (I usually do one per week.) Thanks.
Generally, my advice is to keep the speedwork out just because people can sometimes go overboard. They think doing tempos and intervals, etc. etc. will make them faster while base-building or training for a marathon, but it's really just adding fatigue to fatigue and not all that beneficial. However, if you have one harder workout per week already, I don't see why that can't continue. Just keep it to one while you're base building so that your focus is on the overall miles and not the hard workout
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@litsy3 Random - yep, pretty much, I'm afraid, though I've run competitively before and have a general sense of the dos and don'ts. I do keep it to one hard workout, though there are glimpses within other workouts, if I'm feeling really good. I'm not good at the slow run, although intellectually I understand the benefit of it. I'm just not good at holding myself back if my head says "go." But for purposeful hard workouts - a hill workout, an interval run, a tempo run - I limit those to once a week and alternate them. @kristinegift I think you're right. Makes sense - and I was just talking about how wiped out I was after yesterday's long run. Thanks for the comments.0
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Thanks for all the input. This helps so much. I am at 20-25 now right now. I will work on increasing my base for a bit:).0
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lporter229 wrote: »VanderTuig1976 wrote: »This is exactly what I did when I started training for my full. I think I started in week 6 or 7 of the HH novice 2 plan.I was in a similar boat for my most recent marathon and continued doing my typical runs. Once I reached the week where the plan's mileage matched my mileage I started following the plan.
I'm not a seasoned marathoner yet (have my first on 5/1), but wanted to offer my two cents on selection of training plans. With the running experience you've described, you may want to consider doing the HH intermediate 1 plan.
Possibly, but I think the determining factor is going to be your current weekly mileage rather than the distance of your long run. If you are averaging 30 mpw or more, then you should have no problem with an intermediate plan. But if your weekly mileage is less than that, you might want to work on building up your base before attempting a more aggressive training plan. In all honesty, though, I am not familiar with either of these plans. I am just going on the assumption that the intermediate plan includes more weekly miles.
I agree with this re total weekly miles. I wish I had known this when I was selecting my marathon training plan.0 -
While I've not done a full marathon, I have done several halfs and an 18 miler. I have been bouncing around training schedules trying to find something to fit my current half marathon training plan. (I've been a runner on/off since the late 1990's)
For this current training round, I decided to focus less on the number of miles I run for my long runs and put more emphasis on how long (time) they are. I started with 1:30 and moved up 5 minutes each week. Then once I got to 1:50, I stayed at that time for two weeks. One week long and slow the entire time and the opposite week I would run the first hour slow and the last portion at my half marathon pace. I am now up to 2:10.
Since you have so much time to build up your mileage, I would highly recommend this method. Small, digestible increases have made my long runs so much better. I feel great and energized afterwards.
I do one speed work and one tempo run each week. However, if I've not been up for it, I have just replaced the speed work with extra "junk miles". I've also slowly increased my weekly mileage. (No more than a quarter of a mile or half a mile from the previous week). And backed off total mileage every fourth week for recovery. My current weekly mileage is in the low 50's and I'm feeling better than I ever had.
And don't forget to foam roll!
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