abnormal muscle soreness
Freischuetz
Posts: 147 Member
hi,
i am on cyclic keto diet the second week now, sunday is my load-day with high carb intake. first week i tried sa-su to reload, but two days is too much for me.
my goal (male 43/ 6,0 ft / 177 lbs): get close to 10-12% bodyfat. at this point i dont care much about weight - can go up or down - i will stop when i am satisfied with my shape.
in the past i used carb-backloading, but stuck somewhere around 15% BF, thats why i started cyclic keto now.
3 days a week i lift dumbbells, the other 3 days i use just to move my body and burn a few calories (jumptrainig, yoga or similar), last day is active regeneration or simple stretching only.
i feel fine with a daily intake around 1900-2000 Kcal. 20-25gr carbs, around 145gr protein and fat as i need. i take care of my micros: salt, potassium, magnesium, zinc, chrome...
after a reload day, my body needs less than 24 hours, to give a positive result on keto-stix again.
since i started cyclic keto and lets say after jumptraining (~50 minutes), wich shouldn't be that hard at all - i barely could walk for two days. i have almost everywhere abnormal muscel soreness...
does my body need more time to get used to it, or what i am missing here? any help would be appreciated!
i am on cyclic keto diet the second week now, sunday is my load-day with high carb intake. first week i tried sa-su to reload, but two days is too much for me.
my goal (male 43/ 6,0 ft / 177 lbs): get close to 10-12% bodyfat. at this point i dont care much about weight - can go up or down - i will stop when i am satisfied with my shape.
in the past i used carb-backloading, but stuck somewhere around 15% BF, thats why i started cyclic keto now.
3 days a week i lift dumbbells, the other 3 days i use just to move my body and burn a few calories (jumptrainig, yoga or similar), last day is active regeneration or simple stretching only.
i feel fine with a daily intake around 1900-2000 Kcal. 20-25gr carbs, around 145gr protein and fat as i need. i take care of my micros: salt, potassium, magnesium, zinc, chrome...
after a reload day, my body needs less than 24 hours, to give a positive result on keto-stix again.
since i started cyclic keto and lets say after jumptraining (~50 minutes), wich shouldn't be that hard at all - i barely could walk for two days. i have almost everywhere abnormal muscel soreness...
does my body need more time to get used to it, or what i am missing here? any help would be appreciated!
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Replies
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how much sodium are you taking in? Water per day....?0
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i take around 8 gr sodium (maybe even more) and at least 3,5 ltr of water per day0
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In your shoes, I'd drastically decrease carbs. Honestly, I would.0
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You may.need to supplement magnesium.
There's info in here about types that are best absorbed.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10358179/low-sodium-and-keto-flu-electrolyte-imbalance-may-be-your-problem#latest1 -
I started carb/calorie cycling this month (not keto levels) and have definitely noticed more soreness than before when I was just low carb every day. I'm guessing it has something to do with carbs and increased inflammation overall. I have used bioplasma (12 cell salts) which helps, and a topical magnesium directly on the sore muscles, which also helps. I have noticed that it clears up faster than it did before I was low carb - instead of being sore for 3-5 days, I find that I'm only sore for 1-2 days. Not sure of the science behind it, but you are definitely not the only one that sees more sore muscles with the addition of high carb days.0
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By jumptraining do you mean plyometrics? That is definitely very demanding work and a different animal than dumbbells or cardio.1
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yes, it is also called plyometrics. i am doing this almost 3 years now (with varations), but i never had that heavy and longlasting soreness. usually, i recover until next day.
i will give magnesiumchlorid (external usage) a try.
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There are 2 things I would try. First, even though the sticks may be showing you are in ketosis, if you are doing cyclic, you probably never became fully keto adapted, so I would suggest going full keto for at least 6 weeks to build up the mitochondria needed to more effectively burn ketones.
Second, I would agree with those who talk about electrolytes. Specifically, based on the research done by Phinny and Volek, I would suggest taking up to 1000 mg of sodium 30 minutes before your workout. Having a work out that is a little less intense than yours, I have added about 500-600 mg prior to my workouts and it has made a big difference in both my in work out stamina and in how I feel afterwards.1 -
I'm new to weightlifting but not low carb. I had terrible muscle soreness repeatedly...not just once or twice...until I started taking magnesium. Now it's much better. I think I have magnesium malate.0
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some short update: i had legs & back workout yesterday, took 1000 mg sodium with 10 gr BCAA before/during workout and 1000 mg sodium right after.
later i took a bath with sodium bicarbonate and magnesium chloride, guess that worked for me.
almost no soreness in my legs today
not sure how much magnesium i should take, but 400-500 seems not enough.4 -
Freischuetz wrote: »some short update: i had legs & back workout yesterday, took 1000 mg sodium with 10 gr BCAA before/during workout and 1000 mg sodium right after.
later i took a bath with sodium bicarbonate and magnesium chloride, guess that worked for me.
almost no soreness in my legs today
not sure how much magnesium i should take, but 400-500 seems not enough.
You'll know you took too much of you get loose stools. It's safe to increase it 1 tablet at a time until that happens then back off by 1 tablet if you're seeking to take your maximum tolerated dose. You probably don't actually need to take your max tolerated though. But if you take too much all that happens is loose stool so no danger really.
The same is NOT true of potassium though. Just FYI1 -
If I have a high carb day, even in just good fruits, I suffer terrible muscle sorenss and fatigue. It feels like inflamation of my joints and muscles and of course there is the edema. I take magnesium regularly, get enough salt and water. What has made this pain worse is that I have introduced a lot of activity requiring muscle building, not as in weight lifting, but work. I have been having difficulty providing myself with enough foods to meet my calories in fat and protien and so with the added fruit and veg, nuts, dairy, I'm often at a higher carb level than I used to be. So I am in agreement that higher carb days with extra muscle stress leads to inflamation and plenty of pain.
I have doubts at this time whether this combination is very healthy as an ongoing lifestyle.
I am looking forward to more information as the o.p.also is maybe still be looking for seasoned low carbers and how this plays out over lmg term maintenance and building body strength after losing weight.
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i am still searching for more information. but for a few weeks, i will do my workouts without a reload-day.
for sure, i will try at least once more after i reach full keto and hopefully in the meanwhile i get some knowledge...1 -
I think I worry that building muscle or recomp requires more carbs than keto, maybe even more carbs than a low carb diet gives. Can a truly long timer of low carb eating who has maintained and built muscle give some advice perhaps?0
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Freischuetz wrote: »i am still searching for more information. but for a few weeks, i will do my workouts without a reload-day.
for sure, i will try at least once more after i reach full keto and hopefully in the meanwhile i get some knowledge...
Definitely keep us posted. There is truly no one size fits all, so these n=1 experiments are great as they can help others who do not have the "normal" response to an approach.0 -
(What is n=1 please....? )1
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n=1 usually refers to a single data point in a study.
around here, it means trying things on yourself and seeing what happens.0 -
Ah, gotcha, thanks so much. It's not in the 'acronyms and terminology' thread, so I wondered..... 1
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In a scientific study, "n" represents the number or subjects involved either with the study or with the branch of the study. So a study of 30 people would be n=30.0
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some short update:
i decided to have my first reload day at 5/20. i am pretty sure, i am in full keto already because my breath taste the same as my cat
cause of soreness: i raised my magnesium intake every day by drinking and by trans-thermal (bath, spray) and since than, i never had any soreness again. because of bath and spray, i am not able to tell how much i really need...
after workout on big muscel-groups at same day (legs and back), i need much more magnesium, otherwise somehow i do not have the usual power for the next workout in 48 hours.
in the meanwhile and to be sure to get results i can follow and build on, i skipped the 'small' workouts between the days i lift dumbbells.
so far so good after 4 weeks now - i lost a little weight, started to get leaner and as far as i can see or able to measure, i did not loose any muscle.
edit: typo
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Random things that got rid of nearly all of my DOMS: DeFranco's Agile 8 later in the day after lifting, 3-4 contrast showers (30 seconds cold, 60 seconds hot for 5 minutes) per week, and 45-60 minutes of LISS recumbent cycle on all non-lifting days.
I seriously can't overemphasize how much of a difference those things made. I feel like way too many people on MFP in general undervalue active and passive recovery methods. Since I started using TRAC to measure my fatigue and recovery, I've noticed benefits toward all of my training metrics with the aforementioned things.2 -
i sucessfully survived my load-day and guess what? nothing happend. no soreness at all!
i am pretty sure, this keto cycling works only if you are already keto adopted. magnesium for sure also plays a role, anyway i raised my intake since weeks.
some more information about the last saturday:
i had 3 days of active regeneration, so i could be sure i have full power
saturday 11:30 end of workout. i shoot myself right away out of keto with 80gr of dried dates and 40gr of whey, followed by a meal with rice and potatoes.
13:00 believe it or not - 90 minutes later i could feel it. not some tiredness as usual, the trained muscels started to tingle and to be heavy swollen. this wanted effect i had for the next 7 hours.
20:00 no tingeling anymore and less swollen - so i eaten more carbs (same carb-meal over whole day btw...), but somehow this window was closed.
intake this day: total 2815 cal, 271 C, 148 F, 102 P
sunday evening: keto stix are already positive, monday morning: keto stix shows the usual color as always
as i am a big fan of n=1 experiments too, i had the whole sunday to think what i can do with this information and during this day i figured something out, i totally had forgotten:
my body reacts very sensitive on too much urin acid. i always had to be carefully on what i eat and how much. once i do over on protein or "fat" meat or some kind of fish, i end up in gout. since i am on keto, i eat that much fat meat, pork rinds and other things, i already should lie in my bed and cry cause of gout pain. well i dont...
that reaction on urin acid always keept me away from real heavy lifting iron and much protein. i cant tell how often i tried, but without any success cause of gout and i never wanted to take any medicine to keep the acid low.
this sunday was an eye opener to me, because on keto i dont need that much protein in my body and i decided to start this once more with the advantage if a controlled HIT workout. (yes its HIT, not HIIT)
the fact, that i burn on HIT much less calories with almost the same result as a typical three set workout, gives me much better controll over my daily calorie intake and the benefit of an extra load-day.
i am aware, that i am touching the "holy grale", building muscels and loose bodyfat at same time instead of bulk and cut - but i have to try it.
i will start today with a 3 split. one day pull, one day push and one day legs. this allowes me to rotate my load-day every 11 days to a different group of muscle for the next 5 weeks.
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