If it's only 10g I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You should ALWAYS be at or over protein. That's the minimum you need to maintain muscle. Getting more is not a problem. I know you've heard otherwise but they're simply wrong...
Eat up!
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1

What is your weight? How much protein are you getting? Are you in ketosis? For me personally, I had to keep protein under certain limit or it slowed down my fat loss. My maintainence and fat loss diets are almost similar calorie wise except my maintainence is 15% more protein and less fat. You need to experiment and figure out what works for you.

majestic_yogi wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

You should ALWAYS be at or over protein. That's the minimum you need to maintain muscle. Getting more is not a problem. I know you've heard otherwise but they're simply wrong...
Eat up!
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1

That article doesn't address concerns about insulin response from protein. It's pretty myopic view, when you consider insulin has one of the biggest influence in Lipolysis. Blood Glucose levels and insulin levels are not same. If you listen to actual Dr like Dr Eric Westman and Volek. They talk about how some people especially obese and over weight might be sensitive to insulin changes with protein. Would excess protein stop weight loss? Probably not. But for some losing 50 lbs in few months and 20 lbs in a year can make a huge difference. Keto in itself is protein sparing and there are multiple studies which show lbm gain along with excellent fat loss on moderate protein consumption.

For the record, we are still talking about only moderate protein intake here...

Also, insulins usage for protein isn't at all the same as insulin usage for glucose. It's required for amino acid uptake into cells, muscle and even bone. That's not insulin = fat storage. That's insulin = lean tissue maintenance/growth. If someone wants to eat too little protein for the sole purpose of lowering insulin response, they're not avoiding fat gain, their avoiding lean tissue maintenance/growth.
Eating above the amount your body needs does NOT automatically become glucose. Your body won't make glucose it doesn't need just because you supply more protein.
There's a great new article by Marty Kendall that really goes into this but I don't have the link handy right now.

But again, I still wasn't talking about anything more than moderate protein intake anyway. 10g even 20g above what's considered the minimum needed is hardly high protein...

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

majestic_yogi wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

You should ALWAYS be at or over protein. That's the minimum you need to maintain muscle. Getting more is not a problem. I know you've heard otherwise but they're simply wrong...
Eat up!
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1

That article doesn't address concerns about insulin response from protein. It's pretty myopic view, when you consider insulin has one of the biggest influence in Lipolysis. Blood Glucose levels and insulin levels are not same. If you listen to actual Dr like Dr Eric Westman and Volek. They talk about how some people especially obese and over weight might be sensitive to insulin changes with protein. Would excess protein stop weight loss? Probably not. But for some losing 50 lbs in few months and 20 lbs in a year can make a huge difference. Keto in itself is protein sparing and there are multiple studies which show lbm gain along with excellent fat loss on moderate protein consumption.

For the record, we are still talking about only moderate protein intake here...

Also, insulins usage for protein isn't at all the same as insulin usage for glucose. It's required for amino acid uptake into cells, muscle and even bone. That's not insulin = fat storage. That's insulin = lean tissue maintenance/growth. If someone wants to eat too little protein for the sole purpose of lowering insulin response, they're not avoiding fat gain, their avoiding lean tissue maintenance/growth.
Eating above the amount your body needs does NOT automatically become glucose. Your body won't make glucose it doesn't need just because you supply more protein.
There's a great new article by Marty Kendall that really goes into this but I don't have the link handy right now.

But again, I still wasn't talking about anything more than moderate protein intake anyway. 10g even 20g above what's considered the minimum needed is hardly high protein...

There is no insulin for fat storage and insulin for lean tissue maintenance and growth. Insulin is Insulin and it does its job. Now if insulin stores fat or shuttles nutrition to muscle cells depends on insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance. First, insulin will try to load up muscles with proteins, glycogen in to muscle but the problem is most over weight an obese people have various degrees on insulin resistance. When you are insulin resistant, the cells don't respond to insulin which is knocking on the door of the cells to shuttle the nutrients. Some times, the cells already are full with nutrients and don't respond because there is no more space left. In that case, insulin does its second job, which is to store fat.

I regularly track my insulin levels (4-6 weeks) some times more if i am experimenting. Here is some of my own data.

Insulin levels : 2-5 uIU/ml, this is when I am in deep keto/fasting state. Best for fat loss, 4-5 lbs fat loss a week is common when i am close to 2.

Insulin levels :9-10uIU/ml : This is where my levels are if I am eating 1 of protein/ 1 lb of lean body mass. I am slightly insulin resistant (around 2.1-2.3). I don't lose weight but I don't gain weight either except for couple of pounds of fluctuations. This is my maintenance diet.

insulin levels :15-16uIU/ml: This is what happens when i eat a standard diet low fat high carb for weeks. I gain weight, my BMR goes down and I become significantly insulin resistant. Even if I switch to keto, i can't lose weight until insulin levels are reset.

If I am losing fat, I personally would be in range of 2-5, not end up at 9 or 10 with higher protein.

Note: the healthy range for insulin is 2-19uIU/ml, Your Doctor probably doesn't care and all give you same advice of eat less and move more.

Some people have genetically good insulin sensitivity, which makes them eat ton of carbs and stay lean.

I'd totally leap at some sort of home testing kit or other way to do it that didn't require going to a doctor (and dealing with copays and whatnot). Bonus points for measurements of insulin resistance.

That said, insulin does its job, yet, but "its job" is plural. It has multiple jobs (in fact, it has more than just nutrient storage).

Protein is, as you're probably aware, insulinogenic. However, that response when triggered by protein does act differently than when triggered by glucose consumption. I've got another thread about this topic in another group with a bunch of research and whatnot, I'll have to pull it over (unless @KnitOrMiss beats me to it).

I know from personal experience with hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance that protein in and of itself (in the absence of carbohydrate intake) very much allows for the overall reduction of insulin, even at levels of protein intake many "hardcore" ketoers may consider "high protein." It's the protein+carb combination that can really skyrocket insulin levels.

@majestic_yogi How are you verifying that it's fat you're losing and not lean tissue? (Or, how much lean tissue are you also losing at the 4-5lb BF/week rate?)

And I have data of foods with insulin index. You can download the USDA nutrition database and calculate insulin index. Protein Rich food with out enough fat are much more insulogenic, like chicken breasts.

RalfLott wrote: »

majestic_yogi wrote: »

You go to quest or labcorp and give your blood. I usually buy them in bulk for 20$ when the tests go on sale. It's same as your Dr would order but much cheaper. Insulin tests are not as cheap as BG or ketone strips but ok for testing every few weeks.

I was not able to find direct-to-consumer ordering info for Quest or Labcorp. Quest's website says it requires a doctor's order for all tests, except in Arizona.

I did manage to find a sale offer from LifeExtension for $29.
http://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/ItemLC004333/Insulin-Fasting-Blood-Test

Any more detailed tips for Quest & Labcorp? Thx.

Look up Directlabs, there are more online vendors. Directlabs uses quest. If you can find anytestlab near you, you can walk in and order any test. I use Directlabs and they have monthly sale for different tests. I use anytestlab for hormone panel, it's cheaper than Directlabs.

The action of insulin in regards to protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
It doesn't make sense to limit protein simply because it requires insulin. Insulin does more than store fat.
Reversing hyperinsulinemia is about reducing ones basal insulin production over the course of a day. This is easy to see happen in a T1D. They still inject for protein, but over the whole day insulin is greatly reduced. For the rest of us, our body provides that insulin, but the basics are the same in regards to increases to cover protein. The goal isn't to limit the amino acids that build and repair the body just because insulin is required for that action. It's to reduce the overall basal insulin.