Safety gear - good or bad?
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Out_of_Bubblegum
Posts: 2,220 Member
A recent thread diverged into face masks for sparring, and I thought it would be a good topic in it's own right.
When I started, dipped foam was still new, and there were a lot of instructors who did not allow it in their schools, and there were still some tournaments that were 100% gear free. Since that time, there has been the addition of dipped foam head gear, and face masks and chest protectors are showing up more every year.
The arguments I have heard over the years against safety gear was (and still essentially is):
It gives the illusion of safety - meaning that people think that if you are wearing pads, that they won't be hurt... or if you have pads over your feet, that your kicks won't hurt your opponent.
It creates a situation where students are encouraged to strike without control over how much power they are delivering, and therefore never learn it.
Building on the above, if students lack control, there is an increased chance of injury, especially concussion, as dipped foam gear does not stop concussive impact. It does help prevent minor bruises, but a serious head blow is a dangerous thing, with or without the gear.
Another argument against protective gear is that if/when you need your skills for self defense, you may not be hardened to know what it feels like to get hit without protection... (to me this one makes very little sense, as it essentially contradicts all the above arguments.)
Your thoughts?
When I started, dipped foam was still new, and there were a lot of instructors who did not allow it in their schools, and there were still some tournaments that were 100% gear free. Since that time, there has been the addition of dipped foam head gear, and face masks and chest protectors are showing up more every year.
The arguments I have heard over the years against safety gear was (and still essentially is):
It gives the illusion of safety - meaning that people think that if you are wearing pads, that they won't be hurt... or if you have pads over your feet, that your kicks won't hurt your opponent.
It creates a situation where students are encouraged to strike without control over how much power they are delivering, and therefore never learn it.
Building on the above, if students lack control, there is an increased chance of injury, especially concussion, as dipped foam gear does not stop concussive impact. It does help prevent minor bruises, but a serious head blow is a dangerous thing, with or without the gear.
Another argument against protective gear is that if/when you need your skills for self defense, you may not be hardened to know what it feels like to get hit without protection... (to me this one makes very little sense, as it essentially contradicts all the above arguments.)
Your thoughts?
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Agreed on all points.
The ITF boots in particular are something I really dislike because it prevents the kids from hitting with the correct part of the foot, they can just kick blindly and it's just bad. They're also hard to move in, and the brand our school makes us wear fall apart easily. My ITF style foot gear is 70% duct tape at this point.
The helmets also make you overheat absurdly fast.
I'm okay with gear, none of us are out for blood. But at the same time it's restrictive, clumsy, and in some ways can be more hazardous than just practicing self control.0 -
I hate wearing gear and when I spar with other blackbelts we don't wear any. However as a children's instructor I like the gear more for the parents than the kids. It makes the parents relax a little and see it as training rather than fighting.1
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I never used to train with any gear, for these exact reasons. I loved it and never got severely hurt. Now my ew dojo uses the gear, and it is compulsory. I'm not keen on a tournament having to wear all that nonsense. For my kids, yes fine. If it is compulsory then okay, I'll deal with it. But more and more is becoming compulsory. It used to be just mitts. Then gum guards were added. Now it's the leg and foot pads. Where will it end? My ex-husband was freaked about the kids sparring, even forbade it the first tournament, so perhaps it's for parents like him1
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I won't roll without my gum guard, but I got a couple of bad concussions so I wear it to limit effects of bumping my head. Tempted to add a scrumcap for extra protection, but it looks so uncomfortable!1
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It gives the illusion of safety - meaning that people think that if you are wearing pads, that they won't be hurt... or if you have pads over your feet, that your kicks won't hurt your opponent.
It creates a situation where students are encouraged to strike without control over how much power they are delivering, and therefore never learn it.
At our last tournament (mostly only kids compete in sparring) I saw evidence of this. It was very clear which students practiced in full gear as opposed to those that didn't. And the injuries racked up on the kids that regularly didn't use gear. The injuries or lack of didn't determine the outcome of the matches. So long as both were able to finish, they would finish it out.1 -
trackercasey76 wrote: »I hate wearing gear and when I spar with other blackbelts we don't wear any. However as a children's instructor I like the gear more for the parents than the kids. It makes the parents relax a little and see it as training rather than fighting.
Exactly - and it's the parents that drive this trend... that and the insurance companies.
But it is very concerning when the very problem that both are trying to prevent is being aggravated by the "solution".
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I think there's an argument for banning headblows with the hand, as in WTF TKD, or getting rid of foam headguards altogether.
Foam headguards do not protect against concussion, as @bwmalone said, but the combination of headguard and handguards provide enough cushioning that the hitter can land repeated blows without bruising their own knuckles, and that's a set-up for brain rattling.
At the end of 45 minutes of continuous sparring everyone in turn, I think all the backfists have the potential to really add up. I wouldn't want to restrict head kicks though, because it's not TKD if you're not aspiring to kick above your head.
On the subject of general health and safety, it never fails to amaze me that loving, caring parents send their tiny daughters to weekend martial arts classes with hooped earrings in. What goes through their heads? Alarm goes off at 7am, you get breakfast, get your child dressed in their dobok/gi and... put big earrings on them? I'm not talking as in discreet studs, that might have been worn overnight. I mean hoops.
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trackercasey76 wrote: »I hate wearing gear and when I spar with other blackbelts we don't wear any. However as a children's instructor I like the gear more for the parents than the kids. It makes the parents relax a little and see it as training rather than fighting.
Exactly - and it's the parents that drive this trend... that and the insurance companies.
But it is very concerning when the very problem that both are trying to prevent is being aggravated by the "solution".
The parents, as a group, are to blame for a lot of shortcomings of modern martial arts gyms for kids, and it leaks into adult classes as well.
Everyone complains about "McDojos", but most people fail to realize that it's that way because of the parents! The only reason the school I go to has so many belts and so many belt tests, is that parents were complaining that their child wasn't ranking up fast enough (not joking). So now we have "high" versions of colored belts. Parent's demands also lead to the whole "belt mill" concept of guaranteed black belts for signing up for a full multi-year contract, because "I'm not going to sign my kid up if he's not going to get a black belt".
The gear in my school is the same story.
We have to wear ITF style boots (which everyone absolutely hates), BECAUSE PARENT'S WEREN'T CUTTING THEIR KIDS TOE NAILS!!!! So kids were getting scraped up. We all have to wear the same exact gear bought from the school, because the parent's were complaining, "WELL WHY DOES THAT KID GET TO WEAR THAT TYPE OF GLOVE" etc.
I wish these were jokes or hyperbole, but this is what has been told to me by my instructors on why certain things are the way they are, and there is much more to it as well. At the end of the day a dojang is a business and needs to keep the lights on.
Then at the end of the day, they all complain about the costs. And I'm just, omfg.1 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »I think there's an argument for banning headblows with the hand, as in WTF TKD, or getting rid of foam headguards altogether.
Foam headguards do not protect against concussion, as @bwmalone said, but the combination of headguard and handguards provide enough cushioning that the hitter can land repeated blows without bruising their own knuckles, and that's a set-up for brain rattling.
At the end of 45 minutes of continuous sparring everyone in turn, I think all the backfists have the potential to really add up. I wouldn't want to restrict head kicks though, because it's not TKD if you're not aspiring to kick above your head.
On the subject of general health and safety, it never fails to amaze me that loving, caring parents send their tiny daughters to weekend martial arts classes with hooped earrings in. What goes through their heads? Alarm goes off at 7am, you get breakfast, get your child dressed in their dobok/gi and... put big earrings on them? I'm not talking as in discreet studs, that might have been worn overnight. I mean hoops.
Agreed on the double cushion jeapardy.. Illusion of safety does not equal safe.
I make it a habit that when my students get up to advanced colored belt (kids), they have to learn how to spar without gear. I generally don't get many complaints from parents, and only had 1 ever pull their kid... but I haven't taught kids in about 10 years.
I've sparred a LOT with and without hands to the head allowed... I think it makes a marginal difference, because hand strikes are so fast, they definitely land more often than kicks, but kicks have the potential for so much more power.... Better just to teach control IMO.
Re: earrings.. I agree - That is NOT OK! I don't allow any jewelry more complicated than rings without stones in them. End of story. I've seen an ear get ripped open and a toe get shredded on a necklace before.
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Geocitiesuser wrote: »The parents, as a group, are to blame for a lot of shortcomings of modern martial arts gyms for kids, and it leaks into adult classes as well.
Everyone complains about "McDojos", but most people fail to realize that it's that way because of the parents! The only reason the school I go to has so many belts and so many belt tests, is that parents were complaining that their child wasn't ranking up fast enough (not joking). So now we have "high" versions of colored belts. Parent's demands also lead to the whole "belt mill" concept of guaranteed black belts for signing up for a full multi-year contract, because "I'm not going to sign my kid up if he's not going to get a black belt".
The gear in my school is the same story.
We have to wear ITF style boots (which everyone absolutely hates), BECAUSE PARENT'S WEREN'T CUTTING THEIR KIDS TOE NAILS!!!! So kids were getting scraped up. We all have to wear the same exact gear bought from the school, because the parent's were complaining, "WELL WHY DOES THAT KID GET TO WEAR THAT TYPE OF GLOVE" etc.
I wish these were jokes or hyperbole, but this is what has been told to me by my instructors on why certain things are the way they are, and there is much more to it as well. At the end of the day a dojang is a business and needs to keep the lights on.
Then at the end of the day, they all complain about the costs. And I'm just, omfg.
Agreed on all accounts... It's the same old story, with different faces. I had many of the same issues when I had my school excepting the exact gear. I had a paper I wrote explaining gear requirements (due to my insurance company for requiring that...) - and told them that as long as it meets those minimums, they can buy it from me, or anyone else, didn't matter.
Belts and testings - Oh definitely. We split from 5 belts to 10 exactly for this same reason.. and our parent organization bought into it BIG TIME. We never had that problem at our school, but heard many horror stories.
Now... I refuse to lower standards or give belts because because of time in grade... sorry... if I had out a belt, that means something to me, and I am not afraid to no-change a student who isn't ready... You will not find a paper black belt that has my signature on it. Ever.1 -
We unfortunately have a lot of black belts in "paper only" as you mentioned it. Some of my more serious classmates and instructors complain, but I look at it in the sense that you get out what you put in. My instructor told me once never to be intimidated by a belt color, the paper belts are a big reason why.
We add a stripe to our belt for each class we take too. Everything is designed for the kids. But I don't mind, I'm just a big kid anyway
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I swap out my rings for a silicone band, but haven't given much thought to my earrings. I wear small diamond studs and we do wear foam headguards, but I should probably start ditching them before sparring class just to be safe.
Agreed on the double cushion jeapardy.. Illusion of safety does not equal safe.
I make it a habit that when my students get up to advanced colored belt (kids), they have to learn how to spar without gear. I generally don't get many complaints from parents, and only had 1 ever pull their kid... but I haven't taught kids in about 10 years.
I've sparred a LOT with and without hands to the head allowed... I think it makes a marginal difference, because hand strikes are so fast, they definitely land more often than kicks, but kicks have the potential for so much more power.... Better just to teach control IMO.
Re: earrings.. I agree - That is NOT OK! I don't allow any jewelry more complicated than rings without stones in them. End of story. I've seen an ear get ripped open and a toe get shredded on a necklace before.
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The main risk with studs, especially if wearing headgear, is a puncture wound while pinning them to the side of your neck if you get hit hard enough. Some headgear has extra space around the ear, but it's not that hard to collapse with a solid blow.0
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Geocitiesuser wrote: »We unfortunately have a lot of black belts in "paper only" as you mentioned it. Some of my more serious classmates and instructors complain, but I look at it in the sense that you get out what you put in. My instructor told me once never to be intimidated by a belt color, the paper belts are a big reason why.
We add a stripe to our belt for each class we take too. Everything is designed for the kids. But I don't mind, I'm just a big kid anyway
I still do martial arts at 45 after 30+ years, so that says something to my mentality too!
Whenever I have students visit somewhere for testing or tournaments, even other schools within our organization, I always warn them that they may see some people and wonder why they wear a certain color belt, and that they need to worry about their own belt, not someone else's. Even then, I still get some questions. lol
You are right about what you get out.. even with standards being met, that is always to be the case... just that my standards don't waiver much as some others. What I've learned about that though, as an instructor is that the attrition due to not giving away paper belts is typically outweighed by the attrition caused by giving them out... Reputation goes a long ways, and the students that drop out because of a failed test... they already had one foot out the door already.
Dang it, Geo - you are making me want to start teaching again!
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Good, do it! It's not something you get rich financially from, but it makes you rich spirtually.0
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.. I should. The trick is finding the time without sacrificing other obligations.0
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@Bianca42 Definitely get into the habit of removing earrings. It isn't just sparring, either. In my experience, veteran martial artists all have tales of witnessing awful accidents involving earrings. *shudders* I've been traumatised just hearing them, honestly.
It's so easy for someone's baggy gi sleeve to catch on an earring as their arm goes sailing past your head. Could be gear-free self-defence drills or one-step sparring. Or even just when you're holding a pad at head height, to the side of your head.
Studs are hardly as high risk as hoops, but it's an easy risk to eliminate without compromising your quality of life!2
