Dietary Fat vs Your own fat reserves
Naboo325
Posts: 29 Member
Hi everyone, I want to see if someone out there can clarify something. I'm on a stall, and now it's not just a stall, i'm gaining. I would be ok with some back and forth fluctuations, but in 3 weeks+ i've put on almost 4 lbs. With that said, I want to see if someone can explain something. I was watching a great video on how when you have ALOT of body fat you don't have to consume as much fat since your body has plenty of it from it's own reserves. So let's say your macros put you at 70% fat. This person was explaining to only consume half of those and your body will provide the rest for fuel. This becomes confusing. So let's assume my goal is 1425 cal per day of which I eat 20g carbs, 73g protein and 117g fat. So if I cut the fat in half because my body can provide that for me, what should my macros look like then? And what about the calories? Am I to replace the fat I am not putting in my mouth with Protein (so up the protein), or just not at all, which if that was the case that's 472.5 calories less and then I would be eating less than1000 cal per day.
Any insight? I'd love to ask the Youtuber this, but she has over 25k followers and getting an answer from her is probably not happening! LOL
I can totally appreciate where she is coming from, but if I lower the fat, I need to replace it right?
Thoughts....
(Some background, been doing Keto for close to 2 months, lost 11 lbs that first 3 weeks and then it stalled and now I am gaining. I don't work out at the moment, I do IF (16:8), I don't do "Fake Carbs" or sweets, maybe a piece of dark chocolate on the weekend. I don't cheat, I eat plenty of fats, never been the problem. I'm trying to walk away from the scale, but I need know that if I am doing something wrong, that I address it before I ignore the scale. I also was using Twin Sugar as a sweetener and I recently changed to Stevia/Erythritol thinking that could be causing this)
Any insight? I'd love to ask the Youtuber this, but she has over 25k followers and getting an answer from her is probably not happening! LOL
I can totally appreciate where she is coming from, but if I lower the fat, I need to replace it right?
Thoughts....
(Some background, been doing Keto for close to 2 months, lost 11 lbs that first 3 weeks and then it stalled and now I am gaining. I don't work out at the moment, I do IF (16:8), I don't do "Fake Carbs" or sweets, maybe a piece of dark chocolate on the weekend. I don't cheat, I eat plenty of fats, never been the problem. I'm trying to walk away from the scale, but I need know that if I am doing something wrong, that I address it before I ignore the scale. I also was using Twin Sugar as a sweetener and I recently changed to Stevia/Erythritol thinking that could be causing this)
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I am curious also to here the response as I have plateaued after about a 35 lb loss. Personally, I know I can’t have any artificial sweeteners not even stevia as it messes up my weight loss.
I am at 6% carbs (20g net), 29% protein (100g) and 65% fat (99g). I lowered my fat from 70% which lowered my calories to my current 1370.
I really want to lose more weight but have to say I do feel so much better eating low carb even w/out more weight loss
Good luck!!0 -
Yes, fat should be the 'lever' to decrease calories.
Carbs - keep low.
Protein - keep high enough to maintain lean tissue (you probably need more than 73g/day, people who are doing resistance training need more, and you need even more on cardio.
Fat - decrease until you are in a deficit and use your own fat rather than eating fat.
*The exception is that it is helpful early on (first 1-2 months) when starting low carb to eat fat to aid in the transition. You might lose water weight during this time, but it is ok to eat enough fat to not lose body fat. In Atkins, for example, they call this the "induction phase."
**A 2nd exception is that your body cannot make certain "essential fats" just like it cannot make certain "essential amino acids" (proteins). For that reason, you should still take fish oil or flaxseed oil so that you get those "essential fats."1 -
Coincidentally after reading your post saw this video at Dietdoctor.com
https://www.dietdoctor.com/member/interviews/moore
I think you have to be a member to see the videos but the basic premise was this man had lost over 100 lbs on low carb then started gaining back weight although he continued to keep his carb intake below 30g per day. He started to experiment with his protein and discovered that for him 80g per day was his sweet spot. He said many do not have issues with protein but for those who are more carb sensitive keeping your protein lower cld be the ticket. He also stated that net carbs were a “scam” and that he uses total carbs and keeps them below 30g.
I am gonna give this a try, ie lower protein and total carbs, as I know I am super carb sensitive. Wish me luck !!!!!
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Just a disclaimer: Make sure you don't decrease the protein so much that you aren't getting enough to preserve muscle. To me it isn't worth it to shoot myself in the foot by losing more muscle mass with the fat, just for the sake of seeing more scale progress. We need that muscle for overall health and longevity. What we really want is fat loss. Not muscle and fat loss. Weight loss in general...well there will be some muscle loss. But we want to minimize that. That's why we strength train and get "enough" protein. The enough is going to be individual of course. As long as you are hitting your minimum.3
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baconslave wrote: »Just a disclaimer: Make sure you don't decrease the protein so much that you aren't getting enough to preserve muscle. To me it isn't worth it to shoot myself in the foot by losing more muscle mass with the fat, just for the sake of seeing more scale progress. We need that muscle for overall health and longevity. What we really want is fat loss. Not muscle and fat loss. Weight loss in general...well there will be some muscle loss. But we want to minimize that. That's why we strength train and get "enough" protein. The enough is going to be individual of course. As long as you are hitting your minimum.
I agree with this. Even when I was following Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Plan (temporary diet with very low carb, very low dietary fat, and sufficient protein to maintain lean mass), I'm not a big guy and was at about 190g per day protein when also lifting weights. I really don't think any less than 0.7g / lb. lean body mass would be a good ideas because your body is likely to catabolize lean tissue.2 -
From what i'm gathering I need to reduce Fat intake, and maybe leave protein where it is. My concern is that it will put me around 1000-1200 calories per day and that is not a good place to be long term.0
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From what i'm gathering I need to reduce Fat intake, and maybe leave protein where it is. My concern is that it will put me around 1000-1200 calories per day and that is not a good place to be long term.
You've already indicated going the route of 1000-1200 calories is not what you want to do. We are all our own little science experiments. If you choose to reduce fat, just switch those calories over to protein. If you cut fat AND cut calories at the same time, how would you know which was effective? You'd then spend the rest of your weight loss phase eating a lot lower calories than perhaps you need to.
I guess I say this from the perspective that the only thing that seemed to matter in my weight loss and maintenance is #1 calories and #2 macro allocation for hunger suppression. Things like sweeteners, dairy, etc have never seemed to have any impact on whether I lose or maintain. When my calories got too low for my liking, I bumped up my exercise which fortunately did not make me hungry.1 -
From what i'm gathering I need to reduce Fat intake, and maybe leave protein where it is. My concern is that it will put me around 1000-1200 calories per day and that is not a good place to be long term.
You've already indicated going the route of 1000-1200 calories is not what you want to do. We are all our own little science experiments. If you choose to reduce fat, just switch those calories over to protein. If you cut fat AND cut calories at the same time, how would you know which was effective? You'd then spend the rest of your weight loss phase eating a lot lower calories than perhaps you need to.
I guess I say this from the perspective that the only thing that seemed to matter in my weight loss and maintenance is #1 calories and #2 macro allocation for hunger suppression. Things like sweeteners, dairy, etc have never seemed to have any impact on whether I lose or maintain. When my calories got too low for my liking, I bumped up my exercise which fortunately did not make me hungry.
Yes, I think the best course of action switch the calories over to protein and give that a few weeks and see what changes come of it.3 -
I'm no expert by any means but after reading books and surfing many sites, I chose to incorporate suggestions by Dr Ted Naiman to break my stall. He recommends 1g protein per lb of lean body mass, which for me, ups my protein to 160g per day. My carbs don't change <20g. So, all that is left are the fats, to which I cut way back on because I have plenty in body weight (only fats are whats needed for cooking). Total daily cals are set at 1850 so most days I fall short, but that's ok. The other thing Naiman is big on is intermittent fasting. I follow the 16:8 IF and that has really given my weight loss a shot in the arm. The increased protein really makes it easy to only eat two meals a day.
For perspective, I have been doing IF for about a week and have dropped 5.2 lbs, after plateauing for about 60 days.
That's what has worked for me.1 -
For me, the carbs is a max number ( don't eat more, but feel free to eat less )
the protein is a min number ( eat at least this much every day, but feel free to eat more )
and I don't really pay any attention to fat at all, I don't go out of my way to eat extra, but I don't really limit that number either
So, my obvious advice is yes, cut the fat, your body will absolutely metabolize dietary fat before body fat...and if you find yourself hungry, eat more protein...you can go over on protein as long as overall calories are not over goal...assuming you are not diabetic or anything, there's no real reason to limit protein.0 -
Coincidentally after reading your post saw this video at Dietdoctor.com
https://www.dietdoctor.com/member/interviews/moore
I think you have to be a member to see the videos but the basic premise was this man had lost over 100 lbs on low carb then started gaining back weight although he continued to keep his carb intake below 30g per day. He started to experiment with his protein and discovered that for him 80g per day was his sweet spot. He said many do not have issues with protein but for those who are more carb sensitive keeping your protein lower cld be the ticket. He also stated that net carbs were a “scam” and that he uses total carbs and keeps them below 30g.
I am gonna give this a try, ie lower protein and total carbs, as I know I am super carb sensitive. Wish me luck !!!!!
I want to highlight this as a complete cautionary warning that Jimmy Moore is in no way a special snowflake whose carb sensitivity is so extreme that it's messing with his metabolism. Jimmy Moore regained his weight and then some because he willfully ignores energy balance in practice. His snacks he's documented have been a pound of almonds, 86% dark chocolate, and a cup of coconut oil. The calorie count alone is well into the thousands and that gargantuan fat bomb is his snack.
He uses his blood sugar and ketone levels as his meters of health measurement. Protein alone temporarily spikes glucose levels as a response to glucagon signaling and the insulin response to that is what temporarily blunts ketone levels.
Jimmy does not have a medical condition that requires high levels of ketones. He does not have a credible line of advice to give anymore since he's pushed exogenous ketones as a business on top of his circular speech about falling for the idiom of "eat less and move more" touting the USDA as some sort of conspiracy agency designed to keep people overweight by feeding them grain.
Protein is the literal source of life. Without it we would not exist. I don't see the need to limit or reduce it without a medical reason to do so.
Fat has just over twice as many kcal as carbs or protein. By trading out >2g of protein for 1g of fat makes no sense. If your body has an excessive abundance of stored energy AKA body fat, would you really want to add even more dietary fat to that if you're trying to lose it?
If I told you that you own your dream car under the condition that you have to drain the gas tank first as fast as you could, but I continuously kept pumping gas into the tank, how do you suppose you could get that car? You have to somehow cut the supply going in before you could even drain the tank, right? That's how our bodies work. No matter how hard you step on the gas (exercise), if you're continuously filling up the tank with gas (fat), you'll never get to own the car (your ideal body).
If you want to make it even worse, by falling for his scams about exogenous ketones, it's like switching from a gas powered vehicle to an electric hybrid where too many ketones would actually stop lipolysis (fat release), and your body would need to get rid of any excess ketones before you achieve metabolic acidosis.
So, no, don't listen to Jimmy Moore and what he's currently preaching.6 -
I'm no expert by any means but after reading books and surfing many sites, I chose to incorporate suggestions by Dr Ted Naiman to break my stall. He recommends 1g protein per lb of lean body mass, which for me, ups my protein to 160g per day. My carbs don't change <20g. So, all that is left are the fats, to which I cut way back on because I have plenty in body weight (only fats are whats needed for cooking). Total daily cals are set at 1850 so most days I fall short, but that's ok. The other thing Naiman is big on is intermittent fasting. I follow the 16:8 IF and that has really given my weight loss a shot in the arm. The increased protein really makes it easy to only eat two meals a day.
For perspective, I have been doing IF for about a week and have dropped 5.2 lbs, after plateauing for about 60 days.
That's what has worked for me.
This.
Listen to Ted Naiman. He understands how metabolism works. Ted is an advocate of a modified psmf (loosely based off Lyle's RFL). What Ted does well is make it as simple as possible. Eat real food. Mostly meat and greens. Use fat sparingly to adjust for flavor and personal indulgence.4 -
Yep.Eat real food. Mostly meat and greens. Use fat sparingly to adjust for flavor and personal indulgence.3 -
From what i'm gathering I need to reduce Fat intake, and maybe leave protein where it is. My concern is that it will put me around 1000-1200 calories per day and that is not a good place to be long term.
If you are fat adapted, your body will pull additional needed calories from your fat stores. You might just eat 1200 cals. but your body has access to all the stored fat, and it will go for that, taking what it needs. You might want to check out Dr. Gerber and Ivor Cummins' book Eat Rich, Live Long.0 -
Pulling calories from body fat stores is not contingent upon being fat adapted. That will take the calorie deficit mentioned (if 1200 or 1425 calories is a deficit). Using body fat happens in any sort of calorie deficit diet whether fat adapted or not. Vegans who likely eat primarily carbohydrates are not "fat adapted" and still lose body fat when they diet. I seriously doubt I was ever fat adapted eating a higher carb diet during weight loss and I lost plenty of body fat.1
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Pulling calories from body fat stores is not contingent upon being fat adapted. That will take the calorie deficit mentioned (if 1200 or 1425 calories is a deficit). Using body fat happens in any sort of calorie deficit diet whether fat adapted or not. Vegans who likely eat primarily carbohydrates are not "fat adapted" and still lose body fat when they diet. I seriously doubt I was ever fat adapted eating a higher carb diet during weight loss and I lost plenty of body fat.
Technically, people on a higher carb diet are metabolically flexible, being able to switch between glucose and fatty acid oxidation. By definition, if you're able to burn fat when glucose stores are tapped, you're body is adapted to burn fat. Without metabolic flexibility we'd die. Use T1D as an example: due to lack of beta cell activation, they're not able to oxidize/store glucose effectively while lack of an insulin response leaves fatty acids to run free and causes ketoacidosis when those fatty acids flood the liver and the liver freaks out by dumping glycogen to handle fatty acids.
But as @kpk54 stated, a caloric deficit is what ultimately drives stored energy loss AKA body fat loss. You could run a 100% carb diet and still lose body fat if energy balance is in a deficit.1 -
In defense of net carbs: When I went under 30 carbs to about 20 carbs, I got err....stopped up so to speak. When I went to 20 net carbs instead of total carbs, things were fine. Just saying for some of us the net makes a difference.
And let me tell you about stalls. I've been at this weight since the end of January. I even went on a 5 day water fast, lost 6 pounds and gained it all back in 5 days on 20 net carbs and 1200 calories. It seems that everytime I go below this set point, I always go back up to it with in days. So, now I'm doing IF 5 days 20 net carbs 1200 calories and 2 days 500 to 700 calories. I don't think my body wants to change EVER.2 -
cedarsidefarm wrote: »In defense of net carbs: When I went under 30 carbs to about 20 carbs, I got err....stopped up so to speak. When I went to 20 net carbs instead of total carbs, things were fine. Just saying for some of us the net makes a difference.
And let me tell you about stalls. I've been at this weight since the end of January. I even went on a 5 day water fast, lost 6 pounds and gained it all back in 5 days on 20 net carbs and 1200 calories. It seems that everytime I go below this set point, I always go back up to it with in days. So, now I'm doing IF 5 days 20 net carbs 1200 calories and 2 days 500 to 700 calories. I don't think my body wants to change EVER.
Extended fasting for fat loss doesn’t do anything positive for the body. The reason why is that any weight lost is going to be a combination of fat and muscle. There’s no way around it. And don’t believe anything Fung says that denies that. You’re not feeding your body during an extended fast. Your body requires protein to function (brain, heart, organs, muscle, etc). The body is also made of protein. If it’s not getting protein from the diet, where do you think it takes it from to function properly?
As for stalls, the first line is almost always “weight loss is not linear” and while this is true, there’s adaptive thermogenesis that will downregulate hormone response (primarily leptin) and physiological activity in the face of a severe and/or chronic deficit. Note that this is not the same thing as the “starvation mode” myth. It’s a natural response to the law of conservation of energy. Eat less and the body will burn less. Also, in a severe deficit, your protein needs increase dramatically to spare or reduce muscle breakdown.
So how do you break a stall? In your case, you’ve depleted the body hard and longer than it likes, so take a couple of weeks to eat at your calculated current body weight maintenance. This is a diet break. What your body needs most is a reminder that it’s not going to die. The advice given for “starvation mode” is sane, but the concept of it doing any permanent damage is misguided.
At the same time, I don’t know what your current protein:fat ratio is, but if you still have fat to lose, then I believe I’ve mentioned it already that adding excessive fat grams beyond your protein grams is not a sensible way to use a keto diet for body composition.
Lastly, don’t focus on *just* scale weight. If you’re losing inches, looking better in the mirror, clothes are fitting looser, etc, then you’re probably losing fat. If you’re strength training and you’re not getting any weaker, then it’s more likely that you’re losing fat. If you’re not strength training, you might want to start with a beginner friendly program.3 -
also re net carbs, if you live in Europe, that's what you use and that's what your food is labeled in!
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Maybe check the carbs you are eating. Are the majority of carbs coming from vegetables? Especially green leafy vegetables? If not, increasing the amount of greens you eat may help.0
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@anubis609 for the win!2
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