HR while cycling
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Jthanmyfitnesspal
Posts: 3,521 Member
Hey, y'all,
I've asked this before, but I must say that I still can't get my HR to max out while cycling in the seat. I have to get up off the seat. In the screenshots below, I'm monitoring my HR while on the trainer. To get it to go reliably above 150BPM, I'm cranking while out of the seat. As soon as I sit down, my HR recovers.
Based on a speed formula for Kurt Kinetic trainers, my power is something like 160W while on the seat and 240W when cranking hard out of the seat. I'd like to raise my power output while in the seat to (presumably) increase my overall speed. Any suggestions?
I've asked this before, but I must say that I still can't get my HR to max out while cycling in the seat. I have to get up off the seat. In the screenshots below, I'm monitoring my HR while on the trainer. To get it to go reliably above 150BPM, I'm cranking while out of the seat. As soon as I sit down, my HR recovers.
Based on a speed formula for Kurt Kinetic trainers, my power is something like 160W while on the seat and 240W when cranking hard out of the seat. I'd like to raise my power output while in the seat to (presumably) increase my overall speed. Any suggestions?
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When you have your VO2 max and max HR tested in a sports science lab you just pedal (seated) at a constant cadence and every 2:30 minutes the resistance is turned up until you reach the point of collapse. You could replicate that - but not to collapse perhaps!
Is 240w a spike as you transition from seated to standing or a sustained power output?
What is your cadence when seated?
Is your bike/saddle set up OK? Are you feeling locked in / braced enough on the bike to be able to push big loads?
Are you able to crank up the resistance on your trainer to the point you struggle to maintain cadence?
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I'd say try increasing your cadence, speed work - get those pedals spinning as fast as possible every once in awhile, shoot for over 100rpms1
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Would LoBRO intervals be a good option here? My training DVD claims they are, but I don't have enough knowledge/background to say either way.0
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Is 240w a spike as you transition from seated to standing or a sustained power output?
The power quote is based on a formula that Kinetic once posted for their oil-damped trainer based on "speed" (meaning, the speed you would be going if your wheel were turning at that RPM as measured by a sensor). I have no idea how accurate it is.
I typically pump out of the seat for 1.5-2 minutes, then back in the seat for the rest of the 5 minute interval. One advantage is that it gives my butt a rest!What is your cadence when seated?
85-90RPMAre you able to crank up the resistance on your trainer to the point you struggle to maintain cadence?
Yes. Although when I'm pumping out of the seat, I'm in the highest gear. That surprised me.
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johnmtrendler wrote: »
Low RPM, big ring only. Basically just low cadence and high resistance.2 -
Maybe you just need to push hard for longer seated?
I do a 3 minute test on the WattbikePro indoor trainer which is supposed to estimate max minute power and max HR and I never get close to my real max in that short time. It's just going as fast as you possibly can for 3 minutes, the last 30 secs is completely flat out.
This is starting from fully warmed up and I only hit 160bpm whereas my true max HR over 170bpm. My HR (red trace) is still gently rising at the end of 3 minutes, I will always see higher than 160 on 20 min and 60 min FTP tests.
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johnmtrendler wrote: »
Low RPM, big ring only. Basically just low cadence and high resistance.
Ah - hadn't heard that acronym.
I've been forced to train indoors this week when I was supposed to be doing lots of hill training.
I've been doing five minute intervals where I crank the resistance up to the point where my cadence is forced down into the 60's rpm.
(I'm generally a poor hill climber and especially poor on extreme hills where I can't maintain a high cadence.)2 -
johnmtrendler wrote: »
Low RPM, big ring only. Basically just low cadence and high resistance.
Ah - hadn't heard that acronym.
I've been forced to train indoors this week when I was supposed to be doing lots of hill training.
I've been doing five minute intervals where I crank the resistance up to the point where my cadence is forced down into the 60's rpm.
(I'm generally a poor hill climber and especially poor on extreme hills where I can't maintain a high cadence.)
That's the workout Endurance Films does - intervals at 60ish RPM at the highest resistance you can manage for the duration of that particular interval.1 -
I've been doing an internet survey on this topic. I found a couple of articles that say that cycling uses fewer muscle groups than running, therefore it is commonly harder to max your HR while cycling. I would guess that you engage more muscle groups when you stand then when you sit while riding, thus it is easier to tax the heart when standing. Several articles go on to say that strength training can address this to some extent. The suggestion is to do weight training, hill training, and/or (as @jjpptt2 suggests) "LoBRO" training
, to build additional strength in the muscles that are engaged.
All this explains why cyclists will develop unusually (sometimes freakishly) large quads, since this is the primary muscle group needed for cycling and a well-conditioned heart is still able to supply them with oxygen as other muscle groups are less used.
I also found an article that claimed the following guidance on power output per kg body mass
Recreational cyclists: ~2W/kg
Amateur cyclists: ~3W/kg
Professional cyclists: ~6W/kg
This puts me somewhere between REC and AM, leaning more toward REC! (Of course, I'm 55+, so what can I expect?)
https://www.active.com/articles/why-are-there-heart-rate-discrepancies-in-cycling-vs-running1 -
Maybe you just need to push hard for longer seated?
I do a 3 minute test on the WattbikePro indoor trainer which is supposed to estimate max minute power and max HR and I never get close to my real max in that short time. It's just going as fast as you possibly can for 3 minutes, the last 30 secs is completely flat out.
This is starting from fully warmed up and I only hit 160bpm whereas my true max HR over 170bpm. My HR (red trace) is still gently rising at the end of 3 minutes, I will always see higher than 160 on 20 min and 60 min FTP tests.
Interesting. I think you should be able to max your HR pretty quick. Day to day variance can happen, but you should still get close.
Here's a 3' of mine:
HR basically pegged at low 180s by the time I was done. Then below is me doing the same thing, but for 1' max,
Same idea, HR pretty much pegged at low 180s which is near my max.
Maybe you can eek out a few extra bpm off a hard finish of a longer effort, but barring a weird day you ought to be able to get close either way. Highest I've ever seen on a hot summer day was 187.
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »Hey, y'all,
I've asked this before, but I must say that I still can't get my HR to max out while cycling in the seat. I have to get up off the seat. In the screenshots below, I'm monitoring my HR while on the trainer. To get it to go reliably above 150BPM, I'm cranking while out of the seat. As soon as I sit down, my HR recovers.
Based on a speed formula for Kurt Kinetic trainers, my power is something like 160W while on the seat and 240W when cranking hard out of the seat. I'd like to raise my power output while in the seat to (presumably) increase my overall speed. Any suggestions?
HR will generally by marginally lower when seated than when standing, for exactly the reason you mentioned. Also, as you mentioned in a later post, the issue, especially when coming to cycling from some other aerobic sport, is developing specific oxygen delivery ability.
You can have a powerful aerobic system, but if you were say a runner it's designed to deliver oxygen efficiently to many places in the leg/arms/body. Cycling is much more leg specifc, so the specific capillary and aerobic pathways might not be as well developed there to deliver your full cardiac output to that area and then you get the lower HR since you're aerobic system isn't quite as taxed, it's just locally taxed.I'd like to raise my power output while in the seat to (presumably) increase my overall speed. Any suggestions?
Not too hard. Just train. Mostly seated, occasionally standing. Power is indeed speed. If you can pedal 200w comfortably you'll go a helluva lot faster than if you pedal along at 150w.
You get better at producing power on a bike by training on the bike. It can be long endurance rides, sweet spot work, hard VO2 intervals, 30/30s, whatever you want as long as there is intelligent progression and sound training principles.
The main point is you don't do anything special to develop seated power, you just ride your back as normal. A little big gear work (50-60 rpm) can be beneficial when you're new coming from a high aerobic background, but you don't need tons of it by any means, as it isn't really muscular strength that is the problem, even if it feels that way.
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johnmtrendler wrote: »
Low RPM, big ring only. Basically just low cadence and high resistance.
Ah - hadn't heard that acronym.
I've been forced to train indoors this week when I was supposed to be doing lots of hill training.
I've been doing five minute intervals where I crank the resistance up to the point where my cadence is forced down into the 60's rpm.
(I'm generally a poor hill climber and especially poor on extreme hills where I can't maintain a high cadence.)
When you say poor hill climber, what context do you mean that in. Poor as compared to the people you normally ride with (i.e. you keep up or are stronger on the flats and then get dropped on hills?) or is there some other reason you think you are poor.
Hills are simply a matter of watts/kg, so the main thing you do to get better at hills is be able to put out more watts....aka get fitter. If steep hills are especially problematic, then it's possible your low rpm output is lacking, in which case a moderate amount of big gear work can help. So can just getting fitter though.0 -
johnmtrendler wrote: »
Low RPM, big ring only. Basically just low cadence and high resistance.
Ah - hadn't heard that acronym.
I've been forced to train indoors this week when I was supposed to be doing lots of hill training.
I've been doing five minute intervals where I crank the resistance up to the point where my cadence is forced down into the 60's rpm.
(I'm generally a poor hill climber and especially poor on extreme hills where I can't maintain a high cadence.)
When you say poor hill climber, what context do you mean that in. Poor as compared to the people you normally ride with (i.e. you keep up or are stronger on the flats and then get dropped on hills?) or is there some other reason you think you are poor.
Hills are simply a matter of watts/kg, so the main thing you do to get better at hills is be able to put out more watts....aka get fitter. If steep hills are especially problematic, then it's possible your low rpm output is lacking, in which case a moderate amount of big gear work can help. So can just getting fitter though.
@L_Master
Poor compared to the general Strava population - I'm far higher up the rankings on flatter segments, slight downhills I rank even higher but on the hills and even more gentle long up slopes I'm way down by comparison.
Noticeable when riding with other riders that I can comfortably stay with or ahead of until we hit the slopes, even slopes where I can keep my cadence up, when they gap me easily and I have to chase them down on the other side. "The Audax Elastic" is a good example - I keep passing and being re-passed by the same riders depending on the incline.
Even poor compared to people with the same power to weight ratio. A friend who is 2/3 my power and 2/3 my weight pulls out dozens of yards every hill although on a long rides (60 - 80 miles) we are well matched, just faster at different times.
It's even more odd as my aero is awful (can't get down low due to neck and back issues...) so really in theory I should be struggling more at speed on the flat rather than on hills when aero isn't such a big factor.
At 58 the fastest way to improve my power/weight ratio would be to lose more weight!
Recent best is 2.89 w/kg on a FTP test but improving at a glacial pace.0 -
Part of that is that hills are generally more competitive in my opinion. They are also generally less subjected to wind effects, so it's easier to get good times on flat/downhill segments with the right wind if you ride in an area alot.
Beyond that, as you seem aware, hills are about pwr/weight. If you're friend is 2/3 your weight and 2/3 your power...either you are somehow putting out less power on the hill, or he is finding a little extra to dig in and push with. I doubt it's your power that is dropping on moderate inclines where you can use desired cadence, so as you said it's just needing more fitness or weight loss. Ofc, steep hills can be an issue with putting out power if you have to use a lower cadence than you want, but if you find you can still put out 250w on a 20' steep hill as you can on a 20' 4% hill, then you're struggling on steep hills simply because the steeper it gets the more pwt/weight dominates.
But yea, sounds like you've got it covered. Weight loss is there is motivation for that, generally improving power output, and possibly some big gear work here and there if power on very steep climbs is an issue.
Also, depending on where you live, it might depend on the type of climbs you have. Are you getting tailed off on short climbs of a few minutes where everyone really hits it hard, or are these climbs longer ones, say 15+ minutes in length?0 -
@L_Master: This is all pretty helpful and inspiring. I did a lot more cycling when younger, stopped for a while, and now getting back into it, except that time and location restrictions are an issue. (I don't like to head out on weekday evenings all that much, too much traffic!)
But, I see that there are some clear things to work on. I've done very little high-gear stuff, always working the RPMs. So there's that.
There's also this guy for inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ 0 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »@L_Master: This is all pretty helpful and inspiring. I did a lot more cycling when younger, stopped for a while, and now getting back into it, except that time and location restrictions are an issue. (I don't like to head out on weekday evenings all that much, too much traffic!)
But, I see that there are some clear things to work on. I've done very little high-gear stuff, always working the RPMs. So there's that.
There's also this guy for inspiration:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ
Haha I hadn't seen that, that's awesome! I'm suprised by the wattage though, maybe they are hamming it up, but 700w for a minute shouldn't be that crazy. I've done that, and I'm not a track cyclist. I think most of those guys doing the kilo are looking at 800w-1100w for 1', which is absolutely stupid.
Generally working with good RPM of 90-100 is best for most things, but when you need to climb steep hills working with a big gear can be helpful if sustainable output at that lower rpm is a problem. It probably won't move normal cadence power too much, but it can definitely help steep climbing.0
