Race Pace Plan

docsallen
docsallen Posts: 159 Member
Hello. I just started tapering and I have a couple of things I want to work on over the next 3 weeks - one is nailing the eating and drinking during the race and the other is making a pace plan.

For the drinking and eating, I am going to start hydrating during all runs over 4 miles. I will add a half of gu for my 2 "long" runs left (12 and 8 miles).

For the pace plan, I am a bit lost. The plans I have read indicate that I should aim for negative splits or even splits. Both seem unrealistic for me to maintain over 26 miles. I have felt fine over my long runs (3 18 milers, 2 20 milers), but the first halves of these runs were all 60-90 seconds slower than my goal pace. Can you recommend a pacing plan that includes positive splits for at least the last 6.2 miles?

Thanks!

Replies

  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    I was always under the impression that you sorted your nutrition on and for the long training runs? Whatever you did during your 20 miles is more or less what you do for the race?
  • docsallen
    docsallen Posts: 159 Member
    I had 3 18 mile runs and 2 20 mile runs. My nutrition practices were a semi-fail.

    Typically, i dont eat or drink anything unless the run is 16+ miles.

    For my 2 prior marathon trainings - last one 2 years ago - I started gu at mile 5 and then every 5 miles. Never an issue.

    My first 18 mile run this time around was with a group, was slower pace than the others, and included a bathroom break. I had stomach issues during the 2nd of my 18 mile runs and my first 20 mile run. I didnt have any issues during my other long training runs, but I am not feeling confident. The only difference in the runs was my choice of gu flavor - with or without caffeine. Someone recommended I start drinking water earlier so I am going to practice that.
  • dsg2000
    dsg2000 Posts: 38 Member
    You should really practice nutrition on your longest long runs. "Practicing" nutrition on a relatively short long run like 12 miles isn't going to tell you much about how you're going to feel nutrition-wise in the last six miles of a marathon. So... I don't have any suggestions for you for this race, but maybe for next time you can try switching to something besides gu and see if you like that better. My stomach is also a big concern for me, and I tried out a variety of different things before settling on a drink mix that I tolerate well. I think drinking nutrients (rather than eating gus and such) helped me, as well as allowed me to pace my nutrient intake better rather than trying to down a gu or half gu at once.

    It sounds like you've run marathons before, so why not use your times for those to make your pace plans?

    I'm confused about what you mean by "positive split" for the last 6.2 miles. A "positive split" would mean that you're running the first half of the race FASTER than the last half of the race. This is not a good idea - it usually leads to complete disaster in the second half and an overall poorer performance and experience. Frankly, by the last 6.2 miles, I can never do much more than hang on for dear life. :wink: If it were me, I would likely start out 60-30 sec slower than my "goal" pace for at least the first 6 miles, see how I feel, and ease up to get progressively a bit faster from there, provided I'm feeling good.
  • 7lenny7
    7lenny7 Posts: 3,498 Member
    docsallen wrote: »
    I had 3 18 mile runs and 2 20 mile runs. My nutrition practices were a semi-fail.

    Typically, i dont eat or drink anything unless the run is 16+ miles.

    For my 2 prior marathon trainings - last one 2 years ago - I started gu at mile 5 and then every 5 miles. Never an issue.

    My first 18 mile run this time around was with a group, was slower pace than the others, and included a bathroom break. I had stomach issues during the 2nd of my 18 mile runs and my first 20 mile run. I didnt have any issues during my other long training runs, but I am not feeling confident. The only difference in the runs was my choice of gu flavor - with or without caffeine. Someone recommended I start drinking water earlier so I am going to practice that.

    I've only done one marathon, but several ultra's. Since you deplete glycogen faster than you can take it in, I start taking carbs about 15 to 30 minutes before the start of a marathon or ultra and try to maintain my maximum carb fueling rate until 30 minutes before the end.

    I've heard it takes about 30 minutes for ingested carbs to reach your muscles as glycogen. At my pace, if I were to wait until mile 5 to take anything, that's 45 minutes of running with no fuel and 75 minutes before my muscles get anything. By starting right away I have more glycogen available in the latter part of the race.

    Through fueled long runs during training I've determined that I can ingest 300 calories per hour without stomach issues. I'm like you in that I usually don't take much in during training runs (1 gel in 21 miles last weekend) but there's benefits to maxing out your intake every once in a while so you know your limits.

    Good luck with your race!

  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
    Certainly conventional wisdom is to use some, or all (opinions vary) of your 18+ mile runs to be practicing your nutrition. That isn't an option for you right now, but you have a marathon history to draw from which is helpful.

    Could your stomach issues be from the Gu? Like most gels, Gu is not isotonic so does need you to be taking in the right amount of water, else you are going to struggle to absorb the carbohydrates you are consuming, leaving you with less energy and your stomach struggling to process. For a regular Gu, you need 175ml water to make it isotonic. 200 for a Gu Roctane (source: https://fellrnr.com/wiki/Comparison_of_Energy_Gels)

    I personally like SIS Go Gels, because they are isotonic. The downside is that they are therefore larger and some find them bulky.

    I'm not sure the value of sharing my own experiences, since we are all different, but here goes.....

    My first 20mile run in this current marathon cycle did not go well. I maintained the pace I was aiming for, but I expected to finish the run feeling like I still had energy in the tank and I didn't - I was shot. It really hit my confidence. I'd been experimenting with more nutrition than in the past and so I expect to feel like I had more energy, not less.

    I realised I had miscalculated the amount I was consuming and was taking in more than I intended. 3 weeks later I scaled back to 3 x SiS gels per hour (giving me a total of 66 carbs per hour), in line with the general guidance that 60g of glucose per hour is about the limit of what the body can process (in other words, 1gram per minute). Every third gel was one with caffeine. I also upped the water intake from 300ml to 500ml per hour. The second 20mile run was way better. I held the same pace throughout and finished confident I could have continued that pace for another 6 miles.

    For my final 20 miles, I'm going to experiment by adding some fructose, which is absorbed by a different channel and so you can add on another 35-40g of carbs to the 60 I'm getting from the SiS gels. I'm not a quick runner, I'm going to be out there on race day for probably 3h 50m, so I'm going to want all the energy I can get :smile:

    For your pacing question, I'd concur with others here - aim for negative or even splits. Personally I aim for even. You might not achieve it, but it's the best approach. In my limited experience, the mental boost I got from overtaking hundreds of people from mile 20, more than made up for feeling like a tortoise at the start.

    For context - I'm not a marathon expert. One marathon behind me, my second coming up in April and simultaneously training for an Ironman 70.3. I've got a triathlon coach working with me and have been researching and experimenting with nutrition quite a bit these past few months during long rides and runs.
  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
    sorry, forgot one thing. As 7lenny7 said also, I have my first gel 15-20 mins before the off and every 20 mins thereafter.
  • spiriteagle99
    spiriteagle99 Posts: 3,744 Member
    I usually go for a banana half an hour before the race, then a Gu every 4-6 miles. I drink Gatorade at every other water stop, but not the same ones where I take the Gu. My last marathon, I stopped too soon, because my stomach was feeling a bit wonky. I should have continued.

    I agree about trying for even splits. I always go out too fast and slow down at the end. Usually my too fast and too slow even out, so I end up about where I wanted to be, but I do struggle at the end. Everyone tells me that I'd finish stronger if I slowed down more in the early miles.
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
    I have run a negative split in a marathon once in 5 finishes. I spent 16 miles telling myself, it's too early to work this hard. Felt great at 17 miles, struggled from 20 to 23 miles, and was totally pumped for the last mile because by then I knew I was going to PR and negative split. Turned out that if I took out the time for the port-a-pot stop just before the halfway mat, it would have been very close to even splits.

    You don't plan to run positive splits. You try to run even or negative splits, and positive splits happen when the plan degenerates to the point of running however you need to in order to finish the race.
  • docsallen
    docsallen Posts: 159 Member
    Thanks for your suggestions! Now that the hard physical training is done for me, the taper is mentally tough. I am analyzing the race bc I want to reach my goal.

    dsg2000 - 2 previous marathons, almost identical finish time. First one, there were strong winds and heavy rain for parts. Second one, I got a stomach cramp (before any nutrition) and I got in my head and couldn't mentally recover. Second one, I also started with a pacing group. I have thought about doing that again. Reality is, I almost never run even splits unless the run is short and I am in race mode so I am nervous about that.

    sjb74uk - I never heard of isotonic nor considered my lack of water might have caused the gel issue. I didn't drink at all for those runs - it is cold enough that I don't feel overheated and I don't like carrying a water bottle. I will look more into this.

    7lenny7, spiriteagle99 - I can't eat before my training runs bc they are first thing in the morning and I take medicine that requires an empty stomach. But the marathon will be "late" for me so I will make sure to have something before the race. A banana sounds good - I prefer "real" food over gu, but I don't want to deal with chewing while I run.

    Mobycarp, all - Positive split is probably not the right way to word it. Even though I felt strong after my last 20 miler in training, I know that in the actual marathon, I am not going to be able to sustain the same pace and I will be slower the last 6 than the first 20. I am thinking that I will start off easy and then start picking up the pace at mile 6ish. But, when I get close to 3 hours of running, I am naturally going to slow down - no matter what I do the first 20ish miles.
  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
    docsallen wrote: »

    sjb74uk - I never heard of isotonic nor considered my lack of water might have caused the gel issue. I didn't drink at all for those runs - it is cold enough that I don't feel overheated and I don't like carrying a water bottle. I will look more into this.

    Ahhhh I think this is a possible cause of your stomach issue during your 18 mile run.

    "isotonic" simply means having the same concentration of carbohydrates and electrolytes in a solution as in human blood, making it easy to absorb. Absent that, it's going to tax your digestive system harder to process that gel. Additionally it will take much longer to digest and therefore derive any benefit from your gels.
  • oceangirl99
    oceangirl99 Posts: 161 Member
    For my long runs I put my water out before my run (maybe the night before - depends on temperatures and my schedule). I have an out and back route so I hit up each of my bottles twice. I eat Cliff Bloks at roughly 200 calories/hour and stay away from caffeine (although I think I'm going to try it). I'd LOVE a negative split... I too am going to work toward this.
  • pondee629
    pondee629 Posts: 2,469 Member
    For my long runs I put my water out before my run (maybe the night before - depends on temperatures and my schedule). I have an out and back route so I hit up each of my bottles twice. I eat Cliff Bloks at roughly 200 calories/hour and stay away from caffeine (although I think I'm going to try it). I'd LOVE a negative split... I too am going to work toward this.

    When do you collect these bottles?