Ketosis Information- Does CICO Matter? Ketosis-The Metabolic Advantage Ketosis-Burning Fat
PaulChasinDreams
Posts: 439 Member
There's been questions around the sub forum, statements, opinions etc regarding peoples intake of fats, calories, macro combo's etc etc lately and specific comments from some individuals stating that "you don't have to be in ketosis to burn fat" or things like conceptual semantics going on so much here lately with references like "burning ketones" and "burning fat" and being in "ketosis" or "fat adapted" etc.. Let's clear some of that stuff up.
When it all comes down to it, there is some very basic facts that are getting horribly wrong here on this sub forum lately. The major one I see by a few members here is the facts that they are pushing here is that it's all about CICO and that you aren't burning fat being in Ketosis. No, not true at all.
First off if you are in ketosis full time, restrict your carb intake down low enough and stay that way you will be in ketosis, and become fat adapted. No brainer right? If you don't know you have to be fat adapted then don't bother trying to convert your metabolism. If you want to properly track the ketones that matter, the ones in your blood, then buy a blood monitor. In Canada they are free and you just pay for the blood test strips. In the USA a company makes them that sells for $60 then you just pay $1 each for the blood test strips after that. I have calculated $ I used to spend on garbage food, eating out at restaurants, and overeating before living this way. I save on average over $100 month living this lifestyle just in that regard. To me the $1 a piece I spend on blood test strips is the best money I could ever spend. It is the biggest part of all of this to me. My 2 cents there.
Fact is you DO NOT have to be in a caloric deficit for your ketogenic, fat adapted metabolism to BURN fat off your body. I think some posters here are stuck in the past. As I know a few of them come from and post regularly on the main CICO boards and yup they are stuck in that thermodynamic mind set.
I will go further into the "theory" about "why don't you just waste away to nothing" if you stay in ketosis too...Hang on good god lol.
First off I'll fill you in on my own history if you don't know about it. It's anecdotal yes of course. But it's all documented very closely by doctors, dietician, and control group of 20 of us whom I also mentor along with my doctor and dietician. A link to my original fat loss thread: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10678145/80-pounds-lost-in-21-weeks#latest
As most of the fat loss ketogenic stories as of late around the world are anecdotal because it is young in our history as a developed society using it for this purpose. But yes there are of course plenty around that are supported by and supervised by doctors/dieticians etc like mine was. Sure Keto has been around for a very long time for medical reasons and it was a natural way of eating before the world became developed etc BUT new science, doctors, surgeons, dieticians, etc etc are doing more and more research on it daily. More and more evidence is coming forward regularly with regards to WOE, medical uses, health, athletic performance etc etc.
My story: (I have cut and pasted this from my original "success story" from the main boards on this forum, see link is above) Well my fat loss journey was not about CICO whatsoever. Not once did I count calories during the majority of my fat loss. I was focused primarily on getting into and staying in ketosis while also doing intermittent fasting in order to gain the metabolic fat burning advantage it supplies. Which it did incredibly. I was always averaging between 3 to 4 lbs of fat loss per week even after the initial big water weight was gone at the beginning. Those numbers continued all the way. Under doctor's supervision the whole time. When people starting questioning the fact that I was losing so much fat without caring about calories I decided to start looking at and tracking my calories to see if what I have researched was in fact true..that I was losing so much fat and not being in a caloric deficit. Cause I was eating a lot of calories as I was losing fat. I knew that but I wanted to start tracking and documenting it. That is where my doctor started to get very interested in it all too. What we found is that I consistently lost fat week by week while being in caloric surpluses of up to 400 calories a day. Days varied of course but what we wanted to find out and prove is that by the end of the weeks I was always in caloric surpluses. And I was. My doctor started researching it a lot at that point and got a registered Dietician involved with it all. We wanted to make sure any exercise was very carefully monitored and accounted for any energy(calorie) burn. So we did some very careful tests along the way where no exercise was involved to get very solid numbers of CICO during the fat loss. Keep in mind there is a tipping point I am sure where you can of course consume too much calories a day where it will interrupt your fat loss while even in ketosis. Scientists have found that out as well. Seems to be the metabolic advantage starts to be lost above 400 calorie surpluses but again that probably also depends a lot on the persons genetic make up, organ function, if they are insulin resistant, over all health etc.. So many things play apart with that respect.
As time went on I wanted to ensure I did not lose muscle mass along the way with fat loss and I wanted to try to build lean mass while losing the fat. So I made sure I was getting my macro's right while losing fat to do this and was working out. I did have an injury along the way too so that slowed down all exercise for a while. As my fat was leaving my body very rapidly (most things you read on the internet say don't lose more than 2 lbs per week for safety/health reasons-talk to a doctor/dietician, get blood/urine tests along the way to ensure rapid fat loss is safe for you more than 2 lbs a week. It is absolutely if done right) and I was getting down to lower and lower BMI I wanted to really focus on building lean mass (muscle). I have a large frame for my height. I was carrying a lot of muscle under my fat. So I began really focusing on more protein, working out and staying in ketosis in this later part of my journey. Which required taking in more nutrients daily but still very little carbs. So It became harder for me to do the OMAD (one meal a day) so that's when I changed to two meals in a 6-7 hr window) and it's working very well for me. Intermittent fasting combined with Ketosis is a very powerful metabolic advantage where you can burn a lot of stored fat rapidly. You won't find many forum member here supporting that sort of thing because like I mentioned earlier this forum is all about CICO. If you research these things yourself you will probably find a lot more information about what I talk about and what I practice than what you will find on this forum unfortunately. But there are some sub groups in the forum that are focused more on LC, Keto and Intermittent Fasting.
When I made the change to focus more on building lean mass (while still having some fat on my body) is the only point I started getting concerned about caloric intake because I needed to "grow" muscle. And my protein intake increased. This part is all still very resent as I am still on this journey.
If you watch from about 37 min, 40 seconds of this video to about 40 minutes, 5 seconds of this video the doctor talks about thermodynamics (CICO) and how it doesn't come into play while being in the metabolic advantaged ketogenic state. This is a fact proven by thousands of people all over the world and by myself along with the group of folks I am involved with in our control group. Tons of new studies going on regarding this as it's a very powerful tool. This whole video by a mentor of mine Dr. Bikman is chock full of very valuable information. And from my findings personally very accurate.
https://youtu.be/3zX3tfuKIloTo note I have never "drank or eatin" man made (exogenous) ketones you see advertised all over the place now.
Another good video where they discuss this CICO/Ketogenic subject is this one here:
https://youtu.be/mKEn86kbC3wAnd another one by Dr Bikman (ketones-the metabolic advantage):
https://youtu.be/cCJS2m92KwINow let's get on to the statements, "theories", "opinions" that you will just "waste away" to nothing if you continue on with being in ketosis etc etc..
First off my anecdote evidence. If you read above about my fat loss story you will see that I lost all of my fat being in a caloric surplus the whole time. Well as explained in those videos and from my own evidence (and another 20 people in our control group) there is that metabolic advantage threshold that you need to be in to have that occur, BUT if you want to change that where you want to maintain, or gain lean mass, all you have to do is tweek your metabolism by adjusting macro's and calories in. You must go above that threshold because you now want to maintain or gain lean mass. So if you now work out more, have a higher energy demand, and are out of stored fat, you will have to get that higher amount of needed every from consuming more calories in ways of fats and proteins. I'm not going to get into the scientific breakdown of all of that while still being in ketosis. That's a whole other two pages of explanation. But tons of info/explanation of that all over the place now days. Do some reading.
I have now been doing this successfully for months and months. I am gaining lean mass, staying in ketosis while eating (right now to date) a 7% caloric surplus weekly over my BMR. There's advocates recommending between 5 to 10% That will depend on your work out regimes, etc.. The key is the macros and calories though and getting over that metabolic advantage threshold the ketosis gives you. (usually it's a 300-400 cal surplus max daily) Fat come into play big time with this all though and you need to ensure you control any fat gain while gaining lean mass. It's a tricky thing that's for sure.
My health markers are all absolutely perfect. I also do DexaScans regularly for lean mass/fat tracking. Although I (and others I'm involved with) have found that the Dexa's are not the have all be all in what folks think about them. Yes they are good but they are very, very manipulated by your bodies water table. Wanna see that for yourself (we did so we did an experiment) do a DexaScan regularly hydrated. Then within the next 10 minutes or so drink a few bottles of water. A couple pounds worth if you can. Then do another DexaScan and see how your lean mass, and fat #'s change drastically. Yup. Pretty crappy that way cause your hydration level plays a very big roll in your Dexa #'s So take it all with a grain of salt but it is a good tool in the tool box while trying to gain lean mass if you do them regularly at the same times of day and with the same basic hydration levels.
Some videos to help you grasp the reality that you can "not fade away to nothing" (LOL) once your fat is gone if you want to continue on with Keto to either maintain, or gain lean mass. There's a lot to this and a lot of reading, and comprehension of it all is needed. But tons of info on that out there. And once again...not all our metabolisms are the same. Lot's of things come into play here. I'm still tweeking my macros/caloric intake with my newer goals in mind.
https://youtu.be/mk9lFY20aWY
https://youtu.be/zbTocMbLy9oMike and Deanna go off tangent a little here and there with this one. But Mike is a fella I like to follow a fair bit. Very good interviewer when he talks to doctors, dieticians, proponents and critics of Keto etc.
https://youtu.be/erSjyQSnY203
Replies
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I will allow you to have your thread. But you are going to keep discussion civil. This goes for ALL POSTERS.
Paul, I suggest you read the Community Guidelines as I previously suggested you do, if you haven't already. That means: watch your tone to other members, do not mock people, or personally attack. We don't do that here. Telling someone they "obviously can't read" is a sneaky way of calling someone stupid. I didn't appreciate it. I would prefer if you would go back to the way you were up to a couple weeks ago.When it all comes down to it, there is some very basic facts that are getting horribly wrong here on this sub forum lately. The major one I see by a few members here is the facts that they are pushing here is that it's all about CICO and that you aren't burning fat being in Ketosis. No, not true at all.
First off if you are in ketosis full time, restrict your carb intake down low enough and stay that way you will be in ketosis, and become fat adapted. No brainer right? If you don't know you have to be fat adapted then don't bother trying to convert your metabolism. If you want to properly track the ketones that matter, the ones in your blood, then buy a blood monitor. In Canada they are free and you just pay for the blood test strips. In the USA a company makes them that sells for $60 then you just pay $1 each for the blood test strips after that. I have calculated $ I used to spend on garbage food, eating out at restaurants, and overeating before living this way. I save on average over $100 month living this lifestyle just in that regard. To me the $1 a piece I spend on blood test strips is the best money I could ever spend. It is the biggest part of all of this to me. My 2 cents there.
Fact is you DO NOT have to be in a caloric deficit for your ketogenic, fat adapted metabolism to BURN fat off your body. I think some posters here are stuck in the past. As I know a few of them come from and post regularly on the main CICO boards and yup they are stuck in that thermodynamic mind set.
Here's a model discussion for you.
I completely disagree, based entirely upon my own anecdotal evidence and the anecdotal evidence of thousands of others. And based upon human biology.
You DO in fact have to be in a calorie deficit for your metabolism to burn fat from your body in ANY WOE. I've lost weigh doing many plans before I went keto. I assure you there was body fat lost. No one said you can't lose body fat in ketosis. I said it was not GUARANTEED to lose weight on keto. I ate too much at times and maintained or gained weight. That's, again, biology.
Now, I concede it's not impossible to not have to count calories, as has been your experience. I know lots of people, through the appetite suppression keto provides some people, who found they could just eat to hunger and lost weight just fine without all the mania and bother of tracking calories. It's a thing. But just because you didn't count those calories, it didn't mean your body wasn't calculating. You lost weight because you ate less than your body burned. That's calorie deficit. Some people have broken hunger cues that don't get fixed by keto. Mine weren't. The suppression was small and then I plateaued and had to come here in Aug of 2014 to count calories too. I began immediately to start losing again. Thousands of other just have to count because the are miswired like me.
Whether or not a person counts calories, CICO, which explains energy balance in the body, is how it works.
Well, why the hell do we keep gnawing this bone, we stubborn CICOphants?!?! I've been LC for 5 years on June 1st. I have many many friends, I've mentored so many and I hope to mentor more, I help mod the LC Daily, and I'm active on other LC forums, and I see HUNDREDS struggling! They're following the plan with all their hearts and strength, but they aren't losing weight on keto. They are desperate and were told keto was their saving grace. And then they stalled out. And they dropped out. And I never saw them again. I was them. Before June 1, 2014, I tried keto once before. I was obese. And I lost 15lbs and then it stopped. Weeks went by and I couldn't lose any more. A month. I gave up. On my second attempt, when I stalled at 15lb, I blundered upon an r/Keto progress pic, and read r/Keto. Calorie counting? What a huge pain it the *kitten*!!! Why should I have to do that?
But I knew I was not like the other keto success stories. My appetite was not suppressed very much. Keto food is DA BOMB, is it not? I just ate too much of it still. The weight dropped like flies after I started counting carbs, too.
I want every single person trying keto and LC to wind up exactly where I am.
I'm ecstatic, over the moon even, for you Paul, that you made it without having to fool with the madness and annoyance of tracking everything all the time. Lots can do that. Many more have broken satiety reflexes that won't fix, so we end up having to take a different approach.
We want everyone in the fold to achieve success. So to us saying things like, "ketosis makes you burn fat" just leads those who are lost in the woods, for whom the appetite suppression DID NOT come, who are led further astray and give up and live in poor health and misery and unhappiness about their weight. They get lost.
I 100% know I'm not going to convince you my point of view. But you and I are not the only ones reading. There are hundreds of lurkers on here looking for help. Maybe thousands! I usually don't say much of anything unless I feel it's necessary. Because there's no One True Keto. There's a lot of ways to successfully sustain a ketogenic WOE. This thing is bigger than you, me, and Sunny_Bunny.
I just think it would be helpful for us to respectfully discuss and consider others POV. I do it all the time. I don't agree with everyone, but you notice I don't post much until now. Because I was forced to.
Yes, there is a lot of misinformation out there. And I'm not giving any. There's 3 billion and 1 youtube videos, and they all say something that will support your position. It doesn't hurt to concede that your way isn't the only way.
It doesn't do to badmouth everyone who disagrees with you, either.
Ketosis does not guarantee fat loss, period. If it did, humanity wouldn't have survived. We went into ketosis when all we had was meat. We made it to 2019. Does that mean that ketosis is worthless then? Obviously not! In an ideal world, we'd be able to follow healed hunger cues and not have to fiddlefaddle with all the calorie BS, but that's not the reality for many. I'd rather they discover what they CAN do if keto isn't working for them the way all the talking heads say it should. I want REAL. I want them to lose the weight and stand here at the finish line with me. And if they have to settle for counting calories too to get there, then that's what should happen. Having to go that route isn't selling your soul. Everyone has to tweak keto to make it suit them best. That's not sacrilege. Whatever works, is better than giving up and going home.
I appreciate that you are passionate about your journey and the journeys of your friends, but as you say everyone's metabolism is different, so are their journeys different.
We pragmatists aren't going away. It's not realistic to expect us to.
It could be that this group is not for you.
Or if you'd like to try to better understand who we are and what evidence we've deemed credible because we are intelligent creatures, feel free to stay.
Apologies for any typos. I'm still finishing my first cup of coffee.
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My views on ketosis are that it is burning fat and making ketones for energy needs. That fat may come from my body if I am eating less energy than my body needs, or it can come from food if I am eating more than I need. Ketosis is fat burning due to low carb intake, and that fat is exogenous and endogenous.
I am one of the lucky ones who finds that my CO increases when i eat very few carbs. I can lose weight at 1600-2000kcal if i eat very lchf. If i eat higher carb, my CO seems to drop and i can put on weight at the same intake.
My guess is it could be because I had IR and my high insulin levels from carbs make it easy to store dietary fat as body fat.
It could also be due to my autoimmune issues and inflammation which seems to be worsened by carbs. Who knows.
I do know that i was lucky because not everyone experiences this, and it makes weightloss pretty easy for me if low carb. I was losing 2-3 lbs a week at 1500 kcal a day when overweight. With more carbs, I was gaining at 2000kcal... it's pretty weird but as long as I stay ketogenic it works for me. Conversely, when I go off plan I gain weight pretty easily too.
I have lost weight in the past with high carb diets. I'd eat the toast with only ham, and skip the evil butter and peanut butter. I remember teaching my husband to eat only egg whites, or better yet, oatmeal with agave or honey. Lol. I could lose the weight but it was harder to stick with it- no appetite suppression.
But I did lose fat while eating low fat and high carb. I doubt I was ketogenic yet I did lose fat... I was just miserable while I did it. 7 -
Lets just get down to the nitty gritty baconslave here's what you just wrote:
"
You DO in fact have to be in a calorie deficit for your metabolism to burn fat from your body in ANY WOE. I've lost weigh doing many plans before I went keto. I assure you there was body fat lost. No one said you can't lose body fat in ketosis. I said it was not GUARANTEED to lose weight on keto. I ate too much at times and maintained or gained weight. That's, again, biology.
Now, I concede it's not impossible to not have to count calories, as has been your experience. I know lots of people, through the appetite suppression keto provides some people, who found they could just eat to hunger and lost weight just fine without all the mania and bother of tracking calories. It's a thing. But just because you didn't count those calories, it didn't mean your body wasn't calculating. You lost weight because you ate less than your body burned. That's calorie deficit. Some people have broken hunger cues that don't get fixed by keto. Mine weren't. The suppression was small and then I plateaued and had to come here in Aug of 2014 to count calories too. I began immediately to start losing again. Thousands of other just have to count because the are miswired like me.
Whether or not a person counts calories, CICO, which explains energy balance in the body, is how it works.
"
This is completely false. Not just in my opinion but in experts opinions as I've shown with my links. If you are in ketosis full time and if you do not go over the metabolic threshold of around 300 to 400 calorie surplus daily. Proven science. Nope the videos I linked are not just "any youtube videos". They are from experts. You can look up all of their credentials no problem. Easy to find.
But it's far more than that. We have a completely documented fat loss ketogenic file with our doctor/dietician with 20 participants. We have fully tested the "metabolic advantage theory" of eating surplus calories daily and still losing fat while in ketosis full time and it is fact not opinion. Sure like I said metabolisms vary and medical health of individuals vary but we are talking about healthy individuals and insulin resistant people doing this WOE.
I gather you may have missed a lot of the action on the forum around a year ago or just under where this came up over and over again when I was posting my fat loss success on the main boards. I was explaining what was going on with me and others I was involved with. But still people like you (CICO THERMODYNAMICS ONLY SQUAD WE LIKE TO CALL THEM ) insisted of course that could not be possible. What did I say back then....? I said, wait for the evidence it is coming out rapidly by doctors, surgeons, dieticians etc.. (yup it wasn't even published yet then-some early theories were but not more by the experts yet) But still did people here on the forum listen? Nope, just doubters as you I see are yourself. That's ok it's expected when people struggle with fat loss and only know of one way to lose fat. That's a common occurrence here as you yourself just proclaimed that as well with the struggles you have seen with people not losing fat they want to. That is almost always due to folks not following the WOE's properly, weighing food properly, being truthful with themselves etc.. But not because they are being completely in ketosis fat adapted state full time while staying in the metabolic advantage threshold. If you fail at that there may only be medical reasons for it In my opinion and I would back that up by anything which leads me to my next point...
Sooooooo I'll get on with the real nitty gritty
You and some others here are so so sure of yourselves about CICO and dispute what I say and experts say about the ketogenic metabolic advantage that I want to put it to a final end right here right now and not in an argumentative way... I will make the same offer as I have made previously probably 20 or more times on the main forums.
I have always had an open offer on this forum to anybody that wants to challenge this proven science by making a wager with me about it. I have put up $5000.00 to anybody that wants to challenge this and prove me and the experts wrong. And as stated before the deal is that the evidence can never be erased from public record, it will all be documented and under the supervision of a doctor and registered dietician. It will be done openly for all to see and witness and record. The moneys will be held in trust by a third party and will be used to pay professionals that need to be involved with the project. Remaining moneys at the end will go to the winner of the wager who will agree to either donate it to Ketogenic Metabolic Advantage studies or to CICO metabolic studies. This way there is no monetary gain by either individual. I am putting up my own money and some moneys from others I am involved with that will always back this wager against the CICO Thermodynamic theory community. You have a whole forum here of thousands of CICO backing members whom I'm sure you would have no problem raising your end of the money with. As part of the conditions of the agreement the owner of the forum will approve it and assign a moderator to ensure all is on the up and up as long as an independent third party will also be involved to ensure everything is done properly and to ensure complete transparency and truth during the whole process. A notary will have to be involved as well with notarizing documents. We will do it as explained before as a two month controlled WOE where no exercise is allowed besides regular daily sedentary activities go on. All calorie burning will be tracked and documented even when sedentary. Caloric daily surplus will be 300 calories every single day for the 60 days while being fully in ketosis every day and being fat adapted fully. At the end of the 60 days it will be determined if fat was lost. As the instigator of the wager I will make it part of the terms of conditions that the person losing the weight must lose at least 12 lbs by the end of the 60 days in order for me to win the wager and to prove there is the metabolic advantage to being in ketosis full time while burning fat and being in a full time caloric surplus. (I know they will lose a lot more fat than that though ) Bye bye to the Thermodynamic theory
There is a lot of logistics to take care of with this project but it is very doable. I am in BC Canada. I don't know where you're from but as mentioned before this is an open wager available for anyone here to take on. And of course the participant must have a decent excess of body fat and no major health issues that will disrupt this experiment in order for this to test to occur properly. I know of participants that would be happy to be involved but an independent third party can pick the participant if that satisfies you more. No communications are to be done in private if you agree. Everything will be out in the open for the public to see and witness.
Baconslave I know you are here because of your passion and because you want what's best for everyone losing fat and improving their health. I can see that. So am I. I'm sure you can see that if you spent some time looking around the forum to see my posts helping a lot of folks here with their fat loss. Well if this is true wouldn't you want to have the truth confirmed either way, documented and published for public open record? Either way it will be me or you (and the Thermodynamic community) to concede to the other at the end of it all.
I hope this didn't come across aggressive or arrogant. I know some of my posts can seem that way but as stated i am passionate about not only what I know to be true, but about the health and welfare of others. I had been overweight and unhealthy for a good 20 years of my 45 years of life. I am now 100% healthy and happy and want that more than anything for everyone else suffering the way I did for far too long.
When these arguments/discussions get down to this point like they are with you and a few other insistent folks here It usually gets to this point because it is the only way I know to 100% put this debate all to rest.
I do enjoy being here and contributing but I also won't for a second get pushed around, belittled, or stand for false information being posted without putting my 2 cents in about it. Yes I will make an effort to do so in a more respectful way though. Peace7 -
I am pretty sure that no one here is interested in taking your wager. The walls of text need to stop. You're making us other anti-CICO people look bad. This is MFP, you're already starting behind the 8ball. You need to make your posts much more approachable, digestible, and engaging if you are going to get any traction.14
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I joined MFP over 4 years ago, hoping to gain more information about Keto. I can remember being new to the lifestyle, and finding all the information that one encounters online to be a bit confusing. People can be very opinionated, as well as passionate on the topic.
As I found my way as a newbie, I found the mods and members on the low carber and keto groups to be knowledgeable and supportive. We don’t usually see disrespect here. It makes me sad to witness the tone of some of these threads. I look up to these people who seem to be targeted here. It’s not a competition. We are here to share and learn.
I have learned that we are all different and that what works for one, may not work for another. It is up to us to figure it out. I have read Paul’s success story, and it was amazing, but I know that I would not have the same weight loss results if I were to apply his strategy. I am female, almost 57 years old, mostly sedentary, and have hypothyroidism. I must watch how many calories I consume while eating Keto, in order to lose weight and burn fat. Eating a LCHF diet certainly helps keep food cravings and over consumption down, but Keto alone is not a magic solution for me.6 -
I don't think anyone is denying that food choices can affect your CO. I think the point is being made that foods do not affect everyone's CO the same.
Someone like Sam Feltham
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat/
Or Jason Wittrock's 4000 kcal challenge.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10515890/ketogenic-overfeeding-n-1-experiment-by-wittrock/p1
Both gained some weight but not as much as would have been expected. CICO applies but CO is shifted. I just think it is a mistake to assume foods affect everyone the same way.
For actual studies on the metabolic advantage of keto, I often refer to Hall, although he interpreted the 100kcal advantage as no advantage because it was declining and did not trust the doubly labeled water, and Ludwig's recent work with a weight stable diet. Both were with NuSi I believe.
I think I am one who experiences the metabolic advantage although people like baconslave and kitnthecat may not. I dont think any one diet fits all, although I do think lchf based on whole foods should be the default diet for all. 3 -
baconslave wrote: »I will allow you to have your thread. But you are going to keep discussion civil. This goes for ALL POSTERS.
Paul, I suggest you read the Community Guidelines as I previously suggested you do, if you haven't already. That means: watch your tone to other members, do not mock people, or personally attack. We don't do that here. Telling someone they "obviously can't read" is a sneaky way of calling someone stupid. I didn't appreciate it. I would prefer if you would go back to the way you were up to a couple weeks ago.When it all comes down to it, there is some very basic facts that are getting horribly wrong here on this sub forum lately. The major one I see by a few members here is the facts that they are pushing here is that it's all about CICO and that you aren't burning fat being in Ketosis. No, not true at all.
First off if you are in ketosis full time, restrict your carb intake down low enough and stay that way you will be in ketosis, and become fat adapted. No brainer right? If you don't know you have to be fat adapted then don't bother trying to convert your metabolism. If you want to properly track the ketones that matter, the ones in your blood, then buy a blood monitor. In Canada they are free and you just pay for the blood test strips. In the USA a company makes them that sells for $60 then you just pay $1 each for the blood test strips after that. I have calculated $ I used to spend on garbage food, eating out at restaurants, and overeating before living this way. I save on average over $100 month living this lifestyle just in that regard. To me the $1 a piece I spend on blood test strips is the best money I could ever spend. It is the biggest part of all of this to me. My 2 cents there.
Fact is you DO NOT have to be in a caloric deficit for your ketogenic, fat adapted metabolism to BURN fat off your body. I think some posters here are stuck in the past. As I know a few of them come from and post regularly on the main CICO boards and yup they are stuck in that thermodynamic mind set.
Here's a model discussion for you.
I completely disagree, based entirely upon my own anecdotal evidence and the anecdotal evidence of thousands of others. And based upon human biology.
You DO in fact have to be in a calorie deficit for your metabolism to burn fat from your body in ANY WOE. I've lost weigh doing many plans before I went keto. I assure you there was body fat lost. No one said you can't lose body fat in ketosis. I said it was not GUARANTEED to lose weight on keto. I ate too much at times and maintained or gained weight. That's, again, biology.
Now, I concede it's not impossible to not have to count calories, as has been your experience. I know lots of people, through the appetite suppression keto provides some people, who found they could just eat to hunger and lost weight just fine without all the mania and bother of tracking calories. It's a thing. But just because you didn't count those calories, it didn't mean your body wasn't calculating. You lost weight because you ate less than your body burned. That's calorie deficit. Some people have broken hunger cues that don't get fixed by keto. Mine weren't. The suppression was small and then I plateaued and had to come here in Aug of 2014 to count calories too. I began immediately to start losing again. Thousands of other just have to count because the are miswired like me.
Whether or not a person counts calories, CICO, which explains energy balance in the body, is how it works.
Well, why the hell do we keep gnawing this bone, we stubborn CICOphants?!?! I've been LC for 5 years on June 1st. I have many many friends, I've mentored so many and I hope to mentor more, I help mod the LC Daily, and I'm active on other LC forums, and I see HUNDREDS struggling! They're following the plan with all their hearts and strength, but they aren't losing weight on keto. They are desperate and were told keto was their saving grace. And then they stalled out. And they dropped out. And I never saw them again. I was them. Before June 1, 2014, I tried keto once before. I was obese. And I lost 15lbs and then it stopped. Weeks went by and I couldn't lose any more. A month. I gave up. On my second attempt, when I stalled at 15lb, I blundered upon an r/Keto progress pic, and read r/Keto. Calorie counting? What a huge pain it the *kitten*!!! Why should I have to do that? But I knew I was not like the other keto success stories. My appetite was not suppressed very much. Keto food is DA BOMB, is it not? I just ate too much of it still. The weight dropped like flies after I started counting carbs, too.
I want every single person trying keto and LC to wind up exactly where I am.
I'm ecstatic, over the moon even, for you Paul, that you made it without having to fool with the madness and annoyance of tracking everything all the time. Lots can do that. Many more have broken satiety reflexes that won't fix, so we end up having to take a different approach.
We want everyone in the fold to achieve success. So to us saying things like, "ketosis makes you burn fat" just leads those who are lost in the woods, for whom the appetite suppression DID NOT come, who are led further astray and give up and live in poor health and misery and unhappiness about their weight. They get lost.
I 100% know I'm not going to convince you my point of view. But you and I are not the only ones reading. There are hundreds of lurkers on here looking for help. Maybe thousands! I usually don't say much of anything unless I feel it's necessary. Because there's no One True Keto. There's a lot of ways to successfully sustain a ketogenic WOE. This thing is bigger than you, me, and Sunny_Bunny.
I just think it would be helpful for us to respectfully discuss and consider others POV. I do it all the time. I don't agree with everyone, but you notice I don't post much until now. Because I was forced to.
Yes, there is a lot of misinformation out there. And I'm not giving any. There's 3 billion and 1 youtube videos, and they all say something that will support your position. It doesn't hurt to concede that your way isn't the only way.
It doesn't do to badmouth everyone who disagrees with you, either.
Ketosis does not guarantee fat loss, period. If it did, humanity wouldn't have survived. We went into ketosis when all we had was meat. We made it to 2019. Does that mean that ketosis is worthless then? Obviously not! In an ideal world, we'd be able to follow healed hunger cues and not have to fiddlefaddle with all the calorie BS, but that's not the reality for many. I'd rather they discover what they CAN do if keto isn't working for them the way all the talking heads say it should. I want REAL. I want them to lose the weight and stand here at the finish line with me. And if they have to settle for counting calories too to get there, then that's what should happen. Having to go that route isn't selling your soul. Everyone has to tweak keto to make it suit them best. That's not sacrilege. Whatever works, is better than giving up and going home.
I appreciate that you are passionate about your journey and the journeys of your friends, but as you say everyone's metabolism is different, so are their journeys different.
We pragmatists aren't going away. It's not realistic to expect us to.
It could be that this group is not for you.
Or if you'd like to try to better understand who we are and what evidence we've deemed credible because we are intelligent creatures, feel free to stay.
Apologies for any typos. I'm still finishing my first cup of coffee.
Standing ovation. My body is so weird, my heath issues so varied, there’s no way what works for you will work for me. I had to find what worked for me. My Dr. is against me eating less than 100 carbs. Her scare tactics are a big reason I kept going back, trying to find a way to lose on 80, 50 carbs. I can’t! I’m hungry! My leptin and ghrelin are wacky! I need under 20 carbs to lose. That’s just me. Macros don’t really matter. Calories don’t matter cause on 20 carbs I’m just not hungry! On 50 carbs I am. On 100 carbs it’s a real battle. On 20 carbs I’m lucky if I hit my calorie goal of 1200 (much less 700!) - we are individuals. The plan must be individualized.5 -
I don't think anyone is denying that food choices can affect your CO. I think the point is being made that foods do not affect everyone's CO the same.
Someone like Sam Feltham
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat/
Or Jason Wittrock's 4000 kcal challenge.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10515890/ketogenic-overfeeding-n-1-experiment-by-wittrock/p1
Both gained some weight but not as much as would have been expected. CICO applies but CO is shifted. I just think it is a mistake to assume foods affect everyone the same way.
For actual studies on the metabolic advantage of keto, I often refer to Hall, although he interpreted the 100kcal advantage as no advantage because it was declining and did not trust the doubly labeled water, and Ludwig's recent work with a weight stable diet. Both were with NuSi I believe.
I think I am one who experiences the metabolic advantage although people like baconslave and kitnthecat may not. I dont think any one diet fits all, although I do think lchf based on whole foods should be the default diet for all.
Yes this!
I'm not saying that people don't get an advantage with keto. It regulated my blood sugar and hormones. I got decreased appetite a little, but it wasn't enough. I got some energy boost, but it could only do so much against the developing Chronic Fatigue from Sjogren's. I didn't get any TDEE alteration on the CO side. I know I'm not the only one either. Like @GammieLCHF said, bodies are SO WEIRD.
I 100% believe you when you say your TDEE went up.
I think for the many who can just count carbs, they either experience MAD appetite suppression or CO change, or maybe even both! But some do not at all. It is all the process of energy balance. CICO, that dreaded equation everyone either loves or hates. The balancer just works a lot better for some people on keto. There's a section of us that doesn't happen to. That's where calorie counting may be necessary.
@nvmomketo gets me.
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Holy uninviting wall of text, Batman!6
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I can definitely gain fat on keto so tracking calories is very important to me.6
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Lets just get down to the nitty gritty baconslave here's what you just wrote:
"
You DO in fact have to be in a calorie deficit for your metabolism to burn fat from your body in ANY WOE. I've lost weigh doing many plans before I went keto. I assure you there was body fat lost. No one said you can't lose body fat in ketosis. I said it was not GUARANTEED to lose weight on keto. I ate too much at times and maintained or gained weight. That's, again, biology.
Now, I concede it's not impossible to not have to count calories, as has been your experience. I know lots of people, through the appetite suppression keto provides some people, who found they could just eat to hunger and lost weight just fine without all the mania and bother of tracking calories. It's a thing. But just because you didn't count those calories, it didn't mean your body wasn't calculating. You lost weight because you ate less than your body burned. That's calorie deficit. Some people have broken hunger cues that don't get fixed by keto. Mine weren't. The suppression was small and then I plateaued and had to come here in Aug of 2014 to count calories too. I began immediately to start losing again. Thousands of other just have to count because the are miswired like me.
Whether or not a person counts calories, CICO, which explains energy balance in the body, is how it works.
"
This is completely false. Not just in my opinion but in experts opinions as I've shown with my links. If you are in ketosis full time and if you do not go over the metabolic threshold of around 300 to 400 calorie surplus daily. Proven science. Nope the videos I linked are not just "any youtube videos". They are from experts. You can look up all of their credentials no problem. Easy to find.
But it's far more than that. We have a completely documented fat loss ketogenic file with our doctor/dietician with 20 participants. We have fully tested the "metabolic advantage theory" of eating surplus calories daily and still losing fat while in ketosis full time and it is fact not opinion. Sure like I said metabolisms vary and medical health of individuals vary but we are talking about healthy individuals and insulin resistant people doing this WOE.
I gather you may have missed a lot of the action on the forum around a year ago or just under where this came up over and over again when I was posting my fat loss success on the main boards. I was explaining what was going on with me and others I was involved with. But still people like you (CICO THERMODYNAMICS ONLY SQUAD WE LIKE TO CALL THEM ) insisted of course that could not be possible. What did I say back then....? I said, wait for the evidence it is coming out rapidly by doctors, surgeons, dieticians etc.. (yup it wasn't even published yet then-some early theories were but not more by the experts yet) But still did people here on the forum listen? Nope, just doubters as you I see are yourself. That's ok it's expected when people struggle with fat loss and only know of one way to lose fat. That's a common occurrence here as you yourself just proclaimed that as well with the struggles you have seen with people not losing fat they want to. That is almost always due to folks not following the WOE's properly, weighing food properly, being truthful with themselves etc.. But not because they are being completely in ketosis fat adapted state full time while staying in the metabolic advantage threshold. If you fail at that there may only be medical reasons for it In my opinion and I would back that up by anything which leads me to my next point...
Sooooooo I'll get on with the real nitty gritty
You and some others here are so so sure of yourselves about CICO and dispute what I say and experts say about the ketogenic metabolic advantage that I want to put it to a final end right here right now and not in an argumentative way... I will make the same offer as I have made previously probably 20 or more times on the main forums.
I have always had an open offer on this forum to anybody that wants to challenge this proven science by making a wager with me about it. I have put up $5000.00 to anybody that wants to challenge this and prove me and the experts wrong. And as stated before the deal is that the evidence can never be erased from public record, it will all be documented and under the supervision of a doctor and registered dietician. It will be done openly for all to see and witness and record. The moneys will be held in trust by a third party and will be used to pay professionals that need to be involved with the project. Remaining moneys at the end will go to the winner of the wager who will agree to either donate it to Ketogenic Metabolic Advantage studies or to CICO metabolic studies. This way there is no monetary gain by either individual. I am putting up my own money and some moneys from others I am involved with that will always back this wager against the CICO Thermodynamic theory community. You have a whole forum here of thousands of CICO backing members whom I'm sure you would have no problem raising your end of the money with. As part of the conditions of the agreement the owner of the forum will approve it and assign a moderator to ensure all is on the up and up as long as an independent third party will also be involved to ensure everything is done properly and to ensure complete transparency and truth during the whole process. A notary will have to be involved as well with notarizing documents. We will do it as explained before as a two month controlled WOE where no exercise is allowed besides regular daily sedentary activities go on. All calorie burning will be tracked and documented even when sedentary. Caloric daily surplus will be 300 calories every single day for the 60 days while being fully in ketosis every day and being fat adapted fully. At the end of the 60 days it will be determined if fat was lost. As the instigator of the wager I will make it part of the terms of conditions that the person losing the weight must lose at least 12 lbs by the end of the 60 days in order for me to win the wager and to prove there is the metabolic advantage to being in ketosis full time while burning fat and being in a full time caloric surplus. (I know they will lose a lot more fat than that though ) Bye bye to the Thermodynamic theory
There is a lot of logistics to take care of with this project but it is very doable. I am in BC Canada. I don't know where you're from but as mentioned before this is an open wager available for anyone here to take on. And of course the participant must have a decent excess of body fat and no major health issues that will disrupt this experiment in order for this to test to occur properly. I know of participants that would be happy to be involved but an independent third party can pick the participant if that satisfies you more. No communications are to be done in private if you agree. Everything will be out in the open for the public to see and witness.
Baconslave I know you are here because of your passion and because you want what's best for everyone losing fat and improving their health. I can see that. So am I. I'm sure you can see that if you spent some time looking around the forum to see my posts helping a lot of folks here with their fat loss. Well if this is true wouldn't you want to have the truth confirmed either way, documented and published for public open record? Either way it will be me or you (and the Thermodynamic community) to concede to the other at the end of it all.
I hope this didn't come across aggressive or arrogant. I know some of my posts can seem that way but as stated i am passionate about not only what I know to be true, but about the health and welfare of others. I had been overweight and unhealthy for a good 20 years of my 45 years of life. I am now 100% healthy and happy and want that more than anything for everyone else suffering the way I did for far too long.
When these arguments/discussions get down to this point like they are with you and a few other insistent folks here It usually gets to this point because it is the only way I know to 100% put this debate all to rest.
I do enjoy being here and contributing but I also won't for a second get pushed around, belittled, or stand for false information being posted without putting my 2 cents in about it. Yes I will make an effort to do so in a more respectful way though. Peace
2 cents! Come on now, that's more like 131, but mine is usually 87.5 cents give or take a penny, so don't feel too badly about it.
I think you keep missing the statement that I've been around here since 2014. I don't miss things, I just listen and decide whether or not it's worth it to engage or if I need to control myself and not respond. I only even bother to post in this group if I feel like I need to add to something another member has already said, or to attempt to diffuse a dumpster fire I see coming. I saw you had a lit match. Now they made me mod to deal with guideline violations. I hope you take seriously my suggestions about the Community Guidelines, because your tone is still derisive in places.
"This is completely false. Not just in my opinion but in experts opinions as I've shown with my links. If you are in ketosis full time and if you do not go over the metabolic threshold of around 300 to 400 calorie surplus daily. Proven science."
I do not feel like YouTube videos are scientific evidence of anything. You can post studies if you like, and I will skim them. I'm very open-minded. Countless experiences have led me to the conclusions I have made. But obviously keto-folk are not in the realm of scientific studies, they are in the trenches of n=1. Somewhere in that mass, you said: "People like you." I didn't miss the tone there.
I fail to see where your n=1 is superior to mine or the n=1 of the sub-population of keto-folk like me. I'm not at all mistaken or misguided in any way, but if it makes you happy to lump me, a creature that won't stay in the tidy box or label that you and your friends at some other group somewhere want to try to stuff me in (replete with cute names to call us)...well, all I can tell you is "good luck" on that. 
Regarding the numbers you suggest, "if you do not go over ...300-400 calories surplus:" This is contradictory to all your insistence. So now calories are suddenly important? And how would you even know where you were in regards to that if you did not count them? How does your body keep you there in that magic number? My body doesn't tell me. That's why I have to bother to count. I assure you I don't do it for fun. It's rather a bit of a PITA. Like I told nvmomketo above, sure some people probably get some change on the CO side, but everyone doesn't. And again, if their appetite reflexes are still wonky, how would they even stay under that number without counting calories? This is all regarding energy balance, which you say doesn't exist. I'm saying it is CICO, just the CO is shifted for some in ketosis. If that is the case, is there a study bearing that out, not just coming out of a man talking on YouTube, with or without letters after their name? Videos are not proven science. That is people talking, projecting a position of authority that may or may not have been earned and is not guaranteed by being backed by experimental science.
Like I said, I conceded there may be advantage on the CO side of the equation for some. But it is not universal. And if there is an actual threshold, those who do not have the reflexes to achieve that are left in the lurch. Again, this is where calorie counting may be necessary.
Regarding your wager, if you were to go up against my screwy system, you'd lose. I'm not going to fleece you of your money. I can't go keto any more anyway. Sjogren's is a *kitten*, and I'm only 10lb higher of winter fluff right now, which is rapidly decreasing by counting calories and carbs at under 100g daily with a weekend carb-up. I'm not a candidate. You think your supposition will decide something, but it will not. I know for fact you really would find there are others who can't be stuffed into boxes either. But they probably aren't as bizarre, cynical, or wily as I am.
I'm happy your box fits you well. I know there are others in this group that fit this box. Many others don't. I know for a fact that some members have left here due to the dust up (it's driven them off). That's really a shame. We were doing peaceful and well here.
I'm going to confess. I have done research and watched many videos by those who are given credibility in keto circles. Remember, I was keto for 1.5 years straight. I was keto-folk. I'd still be keto-folk if my asinine body would let me. And I'm a keto-proponent. I freakin' love science! But I really, after all my experience, and all the experiences with myriad people who have done keto and low-carb, and all those I have mentored or tried to advise, I DON'T REALLY FREAKING CARE HOW IT WORKS. I have seen so much variation, there is no blanket that fits on this thing! You can't stuff it in a box. It doesn't fit and people get left out of it. I care what works to get people to their happiest and best health. And that varies on individual. So we can argue about who is right, but I'm done with it. I'd rather just help people who are struggling think about what might be going wrong. That's the principle I'm behind 100%.
I don't have anymore time to invest on this pointless argument. Alex messaged the mods as some silent members have complained about this hot mess to the site admins. I get to go handle that. And I have children to teach and a life. That trumps this issue without a doubt.
Feel free to count how many cents I just deposited.
It's a bunch, I wager. That's something I know I'd win.
Again, apologies for any typos. I'm again still having to compose coherent thoughts before I've finished my first cuppa.
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I couldn't disagree more with this post. If you honestly believe that you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus via the magic of keto you are very simply wrong.
I can guarantee you I can go and eat 5000 calories of fat, be highly in ketosis, and gain fat at a very quick rate as my TDEE falls somewhere in the 3700 range.
Stop believing the hype and trying to make this woe more than it is. If you enjoy it, and it works for you, than good keep doing it.
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I, also, began this woe through what I learned here on these forums, four years ago. I credit the knowledgeable moderators for guiding me to find what worked for ME. Never once was I told it had to be this specific way or it wouldn’t work. I was only told that it’s an N=1 and to take the information to find the balance that works for me!
Four years of LCHF/Keto/carnivore, has created a healthy me. I know what it takes for me.
The verbiage is a turn off, especially when it seems that it has to be done that way or it won’t work! I’m afraid that opinion is wrong because my N=1 has worked for me since I’ve been in maintenance for three of the four years now.
And no, I don’t think you will find anyone willing to wager a bet with you when we already know what we’re doing here.3 -
Wow. Interesting read. I actually had to stop reading halfway through because I got the gist of his explanation. And that is, GREAT IT WORKS FOR HIM ON HOW HE DOES IT.
I, for one, count calories, measure food to eat at a caloric deficit while TRYING to stay under or at 20-25g net carbs. I've been doing this for a year as a T2 diabetic and with no thyroid, and I've lost 103 pounds. I was told by my doctor to go on this type of diet because of my high A1c levels. Now my trigs, cholesterol, and most importantly, my A1c levels are normalized.
I thought that as long as you get to your goals by doing this diet or a variation of it, everything is gold. Right?5 -
@gedanjj Wow. Interesting read. I actually had to stop reading halfway through because I got the gist of his explanation. And that is, GREAT IT WORKS FOR HIM ON HOW HE DOES IT.
I, for one, count calories, measure food to eat at a caloric deficit while TRYING to stay under or at 20-25g net carbs. I've been doing this for a year as a T2 diabetic and with no thyroid, and I've lost 103 pounds. I was told by my doctor to go on this type of diet because of my high A1c levels. Now my trigs, cholesterol, and most importantly, my A1c levels are normalized.
I thought that as long as you get to your goals by doing this diet or a variation of it, everything is gold. Right?
Awesome!!! Congrats on your weight loss. I was pre diabetic, had a fatty liver, and high blood pressure prior to my fat loss as well. All my blood/urine lab tests are perfecto now We have two members of our control group whom are in completely perfect health as well after dropping 212 lbs between the two of them. And yes, reversing their T2 Diabetes. Not too common for doctors to put that on a file these days (most won't) but yes it does happen and it is possible. 20/20 of us have all improved our health markers incredibly. I'm now on a bit of a different journey with gaining lean mass in mind foremost but am trying to do so while still keeping all my health markers good and while staying in ketosis full time. So far so very good
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I don't care what the magical keto fairy says on their youtube channel. Anyone and everyone who claims calories do NOT matter is full of scheet, especially Dr Fung.1
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I don't care what the magical keto fairy says on their youtube channel. Anyone and everyone who claims calories do NOT matter is full of scheet, especially Dr Fung.
The wager is open to anybody on the forum. That includes you Love and hugs love and hugs 1 -
The only thing that really matters in the long run is this one question. Is this sustainable? If you can't do keto for the rest of your life, welcome to the 95 percent club. Only 5 percent of people succeed in weight loss long term, being 3 to 5 years. Those are the unfortunate facts. Most people will gain back all they have lost and then some.
The more you can take the mysticism and magic out of something the better off you are going to be. That is why refuting FACTS about the law of thermodynamics and energy balance is asinine.
For every study you can post, every magical benefit of keto can be ALSO explained by the simple fact that the person in question is in a caloric deficit and losing weight.
Obviously keto used for therapeutic uses for seizures no withstanding. We are not talking about that though are we.
Coming on a calorie counting forum, and bashing the use of CICO would be like going to Glock forum and telling everyone there that their Glocks are garbage and they need to go get a XDM.
If you are losing weight you are in a caloric deficit. That is the definition of being in a caloric deficit.
Have you ever considered the fact that EVERY person you just linked to, makes money off the Keto community?
Food for thought indeed.2 -
Guys.
Please tone down the ire a bit. Using words like "sheet" and "asinine" in that way is doing the same thing he was doing the other day. You're basically calling him a name which is a personal attack. I don't want you all to bring trouble down on the entire group. As I said in my thread, if the site admins are getting a bunch of reports, and have to constantly get involved, it's going to be scorched-earth on us, and we won't have it any more. You've got to keep your heads down and follow the Guidelines.
I wanted for us to be able to have this discussion but I'm going to temporarily close this thread while I confer with the other mods. It's too divisive. This may be a permanent closure.1
This discussion has been closed.