The protein dilemma
Antiopelle
Posts: 1,184 Member
Hello girls !
I went into some Blue Zones data (just browsing - not in depth) and it seems that in those areas where the most people live well and more importantly age well, they eat very little protein. The protein they eat is mostly plant based and only very small amounts of animal meat is consumed.
Now, we all know that high protein is recommended for dieting as it curbs hunger in a much more efficient way than carbs, AND we need protein for building up our muscles, which we also need for old age.
So I'm a bit lost here now. At first sight it seems that high protein is very well for a short time to diet, to help lose the weight and build up muscle, but that it is better to drop the high protein intake in the long run, to ensure aging well and healthily.
When I look at my own grandparents and even the generations before them, they all got to a very old age. My mothers' father was 98 for example. And I remember they were always complaining that we ate way too much meat. For them, meat was something for a Sunday only, together with a sweet Sunday treat. Their main food staples were veggies, bread & potatoes, and eggs. So this resonates with my own experience somehow.
What are your thoughts on this?
I went into some Blue Zones data (just browsing - not in depth) and it seems that in those areas where the most people live well and more importantly age well, they eat very little protein. The protein they eat is mostly plant based and only very small amounts of animal meat is consumed.
Now, we all know that high protein is recommended for dieting as it curbs hunger in a much more efficient way than carbs, AND we need protein for building up our muscles, which we also need for old age.
So I'm a bit lost here now. At first sight it seems that high protein is very well for a short time to diet, to help lose the weight and build up muscle, but that it is better to drop the high protein intake in the long run, to ensure aging well and healthily.
When I look at my own grandparents and even the generations before them, they all got to a very old age. My mothers' father was 98 for example. And I remember they were always complaining that we ate way too much meat. For them, meat was something for a Sunday only, together with a sweet Sunday treat. Their main food staples were veggies, bread & potatoes, and eggs. So this resonates with my own experience somehow.
What are your thoughts on this?
2
Replies
-
Interesting I only have n=5 or 6 so nothing definite of course. My parents’ eldest siblings lived into their mid 90s - ate some meat but they were constantly moving.
My parents are in their early 80s, eat a tremendous amount of meat and processed meat and deal with high cholesterol, high bp, kidney issues - stopped being as active when they retired and moved from NYC.
There was a period of time when I was so busy with work and life I was on autopilot - and unknowingly became a vegetarian. How? Just bought easy to heat food - boiled eggs and fruit for breakfast, a soy microwaveable lunch and a spinach salad for dinner.
I never felt lighter, better, lost weight - I recalled having to stop in a store before a meeting to buy a belt because my pants were falling off. That was for about three months - my assistant was on maternity leave.
I can’t lie - I love bacon, sausage, burgers, steak. I should try to limit it.
Could activity play a role to combat the adverse effects. How about those folks on keto who swear all their numbers are improved once eating more protein - even animal protein?1 -
I follow a few people who talk about nutrition, and tend to find that there's not enough protein in our diets - or at least not "good" protein (animal or plant). A LOT of typical American diets are a TON of processed foods, and all the crap that comes in them (even though frequently it wouldn't be needed). I can't say I've looked at actual hard data though, would be interesting to review.
For me, high protein works MUCH better, and a significant portion of my meals from carbs = weight gain (and no, not just the temporary water gain).
Also, when I'm eating higher protein, I'm also eating a LOT more vegetables - as bases, sides, mixed in - so while protein does go up, veggies go WAY up as those are the primary carb replacement. Fats go up a bit as well, but honestly, compared to those who eat a lot of processed foods, it's probably not bad at all, and a lot of it comes from sources like olives, nuts, avocados, etc - some cheese and butter as well, but again, it's not "hidden" in some ingredient list.
I do shoot for leaner meats (chicken, fish, shrimp) or leaner cuts of beef/pork on the occasions that's what I am cooking. Cheese makes a more regular occurrence, although I have a preference for harder/aged cheeses when I can afford/utilize them.0 -
@ceebeeslim: I agree that activity also plays a large role. And genetics for sure!
@honeybadger302: I think you hit a very good point where you add a lot more veggies to protein than you would with carbs. I also tend to do that. Hubbie has seen a dietitian for some time this year when he was training for a marathon, and he needed to add veggies to everything! It was an eye opener for me as I really thought we were eating moderately healthy with lots of veg and fruit, but it still wasn't enough.
1 -
Funny, I just started reading a book called Proteinaholic. In it, Dr. Davis writes how we're doing ourselves a disservice by breaking everything down into macros, and therefore nixing off whole categories of foods because we're trying to avoid something (usually carbs).
All food is either protein, fat or carbohydrate, and most, if not all, vegetables are mostly carbohydrates. When people start saying that they're avoiding carbs, they usually mean grains and starchy vegetables, but I think most people now don't know that there's a difference between simple carbs and complex ones, they just avoid ALL carbs (of course, people in this MFP group I think are a lot more knowledgeable about this stuff than a lot of the general public ). But the fiber in vegetables, especially starchy vegetables, can make you feel full for a long time, sometimes longer than protein can. Of course, everybody's body is different, and different things work for different people. And, as others have already said, genetics probably plays a part too.
I've been a vegetarian for pretty much my whole adult life, but I ate a lot of cheese, and I mean A LOT, ate it at every meal and on pretty much everything. Five years ago my total cholesterol was 194, LDL 94 and Serum Sodium 145 (healthy range is 136-145). And I wasn't even eating any meat!
Over the last two years I've switched to a mostly (about 90%) vegan diet - my total cholesterol earlier this month was 153, LDL is 81 and sodium 138. So a vegan diet is clearly working for me. I also agree that processed foods play a big part in our health (or lack of it).
A funny aside, in Proteinaholic, chapter 4, Davis writes about a 1969 study on the effects of saturated fat on health. When the report came out the meat, egg and dairy industries were of course P.O'ed.
The last sentence of the first full paragraph would be hysterical if it wasn't so enraging!
@SherryRueter , thanks for the link to this archive site, I had forgotten about it.
3 -
It sounds like you are using meat and protein interchangeably. There are a lot of plant based proteins such as beans and tofu. Also not all meat is the same. Most experts say cut out processed meat such as bacon or bologna. Next cut read meat out. Chicken and fish are better meats to eat.
I also agree with other posters cut out simple carbs and junk food. Go with a plant based diet which includes complex carbs.
Just my thoughts.1 -
@SparkSpringtime69: an interesting read !
@GoRun2: I didn't want to specifically make a difference between plant based or animal protein. It's about the amount of protein. For weight loss and muscle building, it is more more more. But apparently, for longevity it is LESS. Which is why I call it a dilemma, as longevity for me also mean a lower weight and enough muscles.
I've cut out processed and red meat decades ago & never been into junkfood, yet I manage to eat a lot of protein if I want to.0 -
I'm been pondering this same question over the last few months, wondering how I'll manage to eat a mainly plant-centric diet while still getting the protein an old (77) lady like me needs. A special issue in my case is a digestive condition that puts dairy, soy based foods and beans out of the question.
A series of books and postings by Dr. Mark Hyman have helped. His pet project is something he's dubbed "Pegan" eating, which is a middle ground between Paleo and Vegan. His advice: eat as many non-starchy vegetables and low glycemic fruits as you can stuff down and use animal food items as garnish, while cutting anything processed right to the irreducible minimum. That seems to hit the spot for me; I feel good and have actually started "running" again after a 20+ year hiatus. I say "running" because technically if at any point both feet are off the ground simultaneously you are "running" even if to the untrained eye it looks like "shuffling."
Be aware that on Dr. Hyman's advice I invested in about $150 worth of assorted vitamin-mineral-probiotic-fish oil supplements. Without the aid of Costco, Thrive and Amazon, that would have run around $250. Not cheap.2 -
@mandycat_florida - Great advise. You're 77 - nice that you're on the boards. I wish my mom would do the same. SO hard to get her into technology. She fell yesterday, I live 13hours away..... I hope she goes to the doctor today.
@goRun2 Interesting on what to cut out. I have cut out most of those. I don't eat any vegan proteins (tofu, tempeh). I cut out processed meat (if we want ham, we buy a ham). and I maybe have red meats once every month(?) Mainly I eat Tuna, ground turkey, chicken, pork. I need to add in more legumes.0 -
Antiopelle wrote: »@SparkSpringtime69: an interesting read !
Which is why I call it a dilemma, as longevity for me also mean a lower weight and enough muscles.
Well, lots of weight training and sports require a fair bit of protein to support them as well...
Honestly, for me personally, I would rather trade 5 or even 10 years at the end of my life for being able to be strong and active and powerful right up to the finish line. I'd rather die loving life and being active at 75 than being like my mom is at 65.
Then again, that's coming from someone who loves and participates in a sport were death is a very real possibility every time you swing a leg over, so I may not have the same aversion to the idea of dying as many do.
2 -
High protein diets, high fiber diets, low fat diets and every other diet I've ever heard of all have one thing in common - cut out the processed foods! I'm no medical professional or researcher, but I'm of the firm belief that the processed stuff is killing us; chemicals, preservatives, extenders, stabilizers, etc. all with names we can't even pronounce. Not to mention the level of sodium in some of these things.
I find that my weight loss slows or stalls when I start to add some packaged vegan foods to my meals (purely out of laziness). I do much better, and have less cravings, when I eat mostly whole foods (by mostly I mean that I still use packaged condiments).
I'm with everyone else here that strength into my old age is important. I don't want to be a 90-year old weakling, I want to be able to do squats and chin-ups into my 90s (PS - I can't do the chin-ups right now). I also want to be able to run to keep my heart and lungs in good shape.
2 -
How's this for irony? After passing on Dr. Hyman's recommendation about minimizing animal products, I'm probably not going to get in today's run because I'm housebound waiting for delivery of 12 pounds of ground beef. Granted it's grass-fed, antibiotic-free beef, but still .....
I do plan on taking the doctor's advice and limiting protein of any kind to 4-6 ounces per meal alongside a mountain of veggies.0 -
I think my middle ground for now will be to try to use meat more as a garnish with my vegetables. It’s almost like how I eat pasta and rice.
A spaghetti Bolognese is marinara sauce, zucchini, and almost 4 strings of spaghetti. I can delude myself that I did not deprive myself. Same with rice - I sprinkle a few grains. And I’ll do the same with meat.
Lordy…the hacks we have to come up with..🙄🤣1 -
SparkSpringtime69 wrote: »I'm of the firm belief that the processed stuff is killing us; chemicals, preservatives, extenders, stabilizers, etc. all with names we can't even pronounce. Not to mention the level of sodium in some of these things.
I completely agree @SparkSpringtime69
can you explain what you mean in the below quote? What are you removing? I get that you find a vegan food... ? do you mean like a boca burger, or a vegan freezer meal for one? And you use packaged condiments....that means ketchup?SparkSpringtime69 wrote: »I find that my weight loss slows or stalls when I start to add some packaged vegan foods to my meals (purely out of laziness). I do much better, and have less cravings, when I eat mostly whole foods (by mostly I mean that I still use packaged condiments).
0 -
@SherryRueter, yes the packaged food I mentioned is stuff like Beyond burgers and other products like that (Gardein, Boca, Amy's, etc.). The condiments are things like ketchup, mustard, hot sauces, soy sauce, etc.
My plan for the next two weeks is to eat only whole, unprocessed foods. I know the word "unprocessed" can have different meanings to different people too. I mean it as vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, grains, beans or legumes that I've purchased raw and (mostly) fresh and then prepared for myself. I'm also including whole grains as "unprocessed" (oats, quinoa, brown rice).
The couple exceptions I'm making for "fresh" is that I'm allowing frozen corn and frozen berries since they're not in season, and canned beans (because it takes soooo long to make them from dry). I'm also going to allow myself bottled vinegars and olive oils with which I can make salad dressings. The recipes are coming from the book "Proteinaholic". I'm going to give a it a try for two weeks first, and then see what happens from there. I just really want to clean all of the junk out of my body for a while.
0 -
@SparkSpringtime69 I think this is a brilliant idea! 👏 I think you'll feel fantastic if you can still get enough calories and keep it balanced. Let us know!0
-
Let's not dismiss frozen fruits and vegetables. Seasonal produce, grown within a reasonable distance, is certainly better than frozen. But frozen items processed by reputable companies are usually frozen within 24 hours of being harvested and lose none of their nutritional value. That definitely beats that "fresh" zucchini that you only realized when you got home came from Guatemala. I make a lot of soups with frozen veggies and for smoothies frozen fruit is better than fresh if you like a nice thick texture.3
-
@mandycat_florida, you're so right about the nutrients in frozen - sometimes the fresh stuff is days old by the time it gets to the local supermarket. And then it can sit for more days in the grocery store's storage or on the shelves before you buy it. Meanwhile the frozen is vine-ripened and quickly frozen to maintain all of the freshness. I do find that veggies seem a little soft for my liking once thawed (I like them very crisp), but I use frozen fruit a lot. The frozen veggies are great for soups, stews, etc. Just have to watch for salt and preservatives in the frozen stuff.1
-
I’m at a loss and hoping someone has an answer. I’m trying to be better with my protein sources (less animal protein) and bought Morningstar veggie bacon strips. I compared the label to a pork bacon extra thick brand and the labels were really not that different. Am I missing something?0
-
@CeeBeeSlim, The veggie bacon has lower saturated fat and, like all plant protein, has no cholesterol in it. The veggie bacon has about half the sodium. The pork bacon has more protein.
Bacon, and other cured meats, have been categorized as Group 1 carcinogens (this isn't on the pork bacon label ).0