The Great Debate
dexter11233
Posts: 19 Member
Here's the big one, and one that I'm sure will invoke a lot of flame on either side.
Does god exist?
Does god exist?
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Replies
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Oh man, you really want to debate don't you. [puts boxing gloves on]0
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I believe yes, but how can you prove it to other people?
It is like trying to prove a mother's love for her kids. Nobody can deny it, but there is no way to measure it, and you can only indirectly see it through her actions.0 -
haha this one might be so broad no one wants to touch it! But Good on ya, I am spiritual and definitely believe we are a clockwork orange. You know method behind the madness. Just havent put my finger on what exactly it is.0
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Gotta have some debating ground rules in a group like this. Using phrases like "it's obvious" or "nobody can deny it" is not going to work if we want to have genuine, thoughtful discourse. But maybe that's the debatable part?I believe yes, but how can you prove it to other people?
It is like trying to prove a mother's love for her kids. Nobody can deny it, but there is no way to measure it, and you can only indirectly see it through her actions.
Having worked at an emergency shelter for abused and neglected kids removed from their homes, I will state that - in my experience - there are mothers than do NOT love their kids (so I would "deny it").0 -
This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.0 -
I find it highly unlikely. There is no way to prove it, at least not at this time. I am an atheist.0
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This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
Well understood, and thank you for speaking up.
Given the fact that you believe there must be evidence, or proof, to signify the existence of god, what proof do you have that he doesn't exists. Basically, why do you take an Atheistic stance verses a more true agnostic point of view?0 -
Gotta have some debating ground rules in a group like this. Using phrases like "it's obvious" or "nobody can deny it" is not going to work if we want to have genuine, thoughtful discourse. But maybe that's the debatable part?I believe yes, but how can you prove it to other people?
It is like trying to prove a mother's love for her kids. Nobody can deny it, but there is no way to measure it, and you can only indirectly see it through her actions.
Having worked at an emergency shelter for abused and neglected kids removed from their homes, I will state that - in my experience - there are mothers than do NOT love their kids (so I would "deny it").
Absolutely - I will agree with you. There are definitely mothers that do not love their children - but all I need for my argument is one mother that does, and shows it through her actions to prove my point. We still can't measure her love (what units would we use? ). I forgot some of the basics of debating, so you are correct - I should not have used "nobody can deny" without fully qualifying the context. 0 -
Well understood, and thank you for speaking up.
Given the fact that you believe there must be evidence, or proof, to signify the existence of god, what proof do you have that he doesn't exists. Basically, why do you take an Atheistic stance verses a more true agnostic point of view?
Thank you!
Well that's the thing about negative evidence. You can't. But that doesn't prove anything. You can't prove that I can't fly. There's no way for you too. But we both know that I can't. There's simply no way to prove a negative.
And if the best evidence someone has for the existence of an ominpotent creator who set all reality in motion is "Well you can't prove he ISN'T real!" I think they have no case at all for their claims.
To let it be known I am TECHNICALLY an agnostic-atheist. Most atheists are. We are generally smart people and we know we can't prove there isn't a god, as I said above. But I can say I'm pretty comfortable in stating that we have a lot of history recorded and we can see that time and time again gods are created and eventually forgotten, only to be replaced by new ones. OH but YOURS is real because of what your parents told you when you were a kid...sure.0 -
This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
Well understood, and thank you for speaking up.
Given the fact that you believe there must be evidence, or proof, to signify the existence of god, what proof do you have that he doesn't exists. Basically, why do you take an Atheistic stance verses a more true agnostic point of view?
You can be an agnostic anything. (even an agnostic Christian) Agnostic means without knowledge. Atheist means without god. The two are not opposites or even in competition.
Gnostic-Agnostic
Theist-Atheist0 -
This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
I agree - the only evidence I can provide is evidence from my perspective - the universe and all things contained in it. However, if you reject the idea that someone or something had to create the universe in the first place - to start the Big Bang, if you will, then there is no evidence I will be able to produce that you will unequivocally accept. This also applies to talking about what he thinks, wants, and has planned.0 -
This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
I agree - the only evidence I can provide is evidence from my perspective - the universe and all things contained in it. However, if you reject the idea that someone or something had to create the universe in the first place - to start the Big Bang, if you will, then there is no evidence I will be able to produce that you will unequivocally accept. This also applies to talking about what he thinks, wants, and has planned.
Ok now it's time to put our money where our mouths are. Can you and I debate without it getting ugly? I desperately hope so. I'll do my best to live up to my end of the bargain.
Using your own logic, that something had to create the universe in the first place, who created your creator? If all of this is so amazing and complex that someone has to be responsible for it, doesn't someone have to be responsible for creating that which is SO incredibly intelligent and complex that he created the universe? Or was that creator just always there.
My take is to simplify things and eliminate the middle man. Because if that which is complex needs to have a creator we have a never ending cycle of creation happening here... it doesn't work logically.0 -
What i would like to know is simply....if there is no God...then how did the world come to be? I have heard the evolutionary side of this...but to me personally i find that lacks logic.0
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This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
Well understood, and thank you for speaking up.
Given the fact that you believe there must be evidence, or proof, to signify the existence of god, what proof do you have that he doesn't exists. Basically, why do you take an Atheistic stance verses a more true agnostic point of view?
You can be an agnostic anything. (even an agnostic Christian) Agnostic means without knowledge. Atheist means without god. The two are not opposites or even in competition.
Gnostic-Agnostic
Theist-Atheist
Agnostic (Merriam Webster [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic]):
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>
My contextual usage of the term Hard (True[Open to interpretation]) agnosticism was used to draw a clear line between Atheistic views and Theological view based on evidence for both supporting topics.0 -
I think we can definitely keep this from getting ugly. I think I am open minded enough to keep my arguments from degenerating to that point :happy: . However, I do enjoy the debate.
The argument for a creator existing before the universe, and not needing a higher level creator, ad nauseum, requires a couple of steps to explain. I'll be back later this evening, as it is going to take more time than I can devote to word properly, while I am at work
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What i would like to know is simply....if there is no God...then how did the world come to be? I have heard the evolutionary side of this...but to me personally i find that lacks logic.
The BEST answer is simple. We don't know. It's an answer most people can't deal with so they make something up. It's what we've done since we could communicate with each other.
It's a strange thing when you think about it. We're all here, living on this planet, going about our lives like we know things, and in reality we have no idea how we got here or what it is we should be doing. People are uncomfortable living that way.
Evolution applies only to living things on this planet. It is factual and has been proven. We've got the fossils. There are even certain strains of bacteria that grow so fast you can literally see them evolve under a microscope.
The theory we have for the beginning of the universe is the Big Bang. It's not great. But it's the best we have scientifically. We're not sure "why". We can only measure what is.
For me I just never understand how saying "Well some magic entity made it all" is any more of a logical solution...0 -
What i would like to know is simply....if there is no God...then how did the world come to be? I have heard the evolutionary side of this...but to me personally i find that lacks logic.
The BEST answer is simple. We don't know. It's an answer most people can't deal with so they make something up. It's what we've done since we could communicate with each other.
It's a strange thing when you think about it. We're all here, living on this planet, going about our lives like we know things, and in reality we have no idea how we got here or what it is we should be doing. People are uncomfortable living that way.
Evolution applies only to living things on this planet. It is factual and has been proven. We've got the fossils. There are even certain strains of bacteria that grow so fast you can literally see them evolve under a microscope.
The theory we have for the beginning of the universe is the Big Bang. It's not great. But it's the best we have scientifically. We're not sure "why". We can only measure what is.
For me I just never understand how saying "Well some magic entity made it all" is any more of a logical solution...
True. I have two things to state with what you said.
First. I do not believe in evolution as i will state why. But say for instance, evolution did exist. For those that believe in it and those that dont. And over a period of time, the world was created say the plants and animals and the humans. I will be honest, i am not completely studied up on the theory of evolution as some may be but i do know the basic history of it and feel i can still argue the point. So everything evolved right? According to evolutionists and Darwin's theory. What made things stop? We came, if you believe in that theory, from monkeys. What made us stop evolving after we became human. To me that would almost require some type of timer. After a period of time, things just stop evolving. That doesn't make sense.
My second point is this. If you were to drive down the same street every day for a period of a year. After that year, you stop driving down that road, for let us say for sake of argument, 5 months. After that period, you drive down that road and you notice a house on a lot where you had not seen one before. You would not think anything of it obviously as we have houses come up all the time. But let us say i were to tell you "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just appeared one day out of nowhere" as the Big Bang theory states. Or even still "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just built itself over a period of 5 months" as evolution states. What would you think if i told you that? Would you not think i was crazy?
Yet to apply these very same theories to the earth, which in my honest opinion i would assume that everyone would believe the earth is far more complex that a 2 story house. Why? To me this makes no sense.0 -
True. I have two things to state with what you said.
First. I do not believe in evolution as i will state why. But say for instance, evolution did exist. For those that believe in it and those that dont. And over a period of time, the world was created say the plants and animals and the humans. I will be honest, i am not completely studied up on the theory of evolution as some may be but i do know the basic history of it and feel i can still argue the point. So everything evolved right? According to evolutionists and Darwin's theory. What made things stop? We came, if you believe in that theory, from monkeys. What made us stop evolving after we became human. To me that would almost require some type of timer. After a period of time, things just stop evolving. That doesn't make sense.
My second point is this. If you were to drive down the same street every day for a period of a year. After that year, you stop driving down that road, for let us say for sake of argument, 5 months. After that period, you drive down that road and you notice a house on a lot where you had not seen one before. You would not think anything of it obviously as we have houses come up all the time. But let us say i were to tell you "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just appeared one day out of nowhere" as the Big Bang theory states. Or even still "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just built itself over a period of 5 months" as evolution states. What would you think if i told you that? Would you not think i was crazy?
Yet to apply these very same theories to the earth, which in my honest opinion i would assume that everyone would believe the earth is far more complex that a 2 story house. Why? To me this makes no sense.
Thing is we haven't stopped evolving. Nothing ever does. It's just so slow we generally don't see it in action. It's not like a fully formed human being was birthed by monkeys. Slowly, very slowly over time little changes get passed on. People get a little taller, maybe baldness becomes more common (here's hoping).. it's these little changes over the course of thousands if not millions of years that create evolution. Add up all the little changes over time and you see how a lizard can become a bird. We have the fossils to prove it happening. Sadly I can't pull up Youtube at work or I'd send you some very convincing evidence of how something that may sound crazy is actually perfectly reasonable.
You just need time and change. And we've had plenty of those.
As to your second point well.. we know houses are built by man. We know that. So of course a house popping up on it's own is strange. We've never seen a man (or anything else) create a universe. So there's no reason to assume someone must have.0 -
True. I have two things to state with what you said.
First. I do not believe in evolution as i will state why. But say for instance, evolution did exist. For those that believe in it and those that dont. And over a period of time, the world was created say the plants and animals and the humans. I will be honest, i am not completely studied up on the theory of evolution as some may be but i do know the basic history of it and feel i can still argue the point. So everything evolved right? According to evolutionists and Darwin's theory. What made things stop? We came, if you believe in that theory, from monkeys. What made us stop evolving after we became human. To me that would almost require some type of timer. After a period of time, things just stop evolving. That doesn't make sense.
My second point is this. If you were to drive down the same street every day for a period of a year. After that year, you stop driving down that road, for let us say for sake of argument, 5 months. After that period, you drive down that road and you notice a house on a lot where you had not seen one before. You would not think anything of it obviously as we have houses come up all the time. But let us say i were to tell you "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just appeared one day out of nowhere" as the Big Bang theory states. Or even still "Frank, did you see that house on Haven and Foothill. Yeah it just built itself over a period of 5 months" as evolution states. What would you think if i told you that? Would you not think i was crazy?
Yet to apply these very same theories to the earth, which in my honest opinion i would assume that everyone would believe the earth is far more complex that a 2 story house. Why? To me this makes no sense.
Thing is we haven't stopped evolving. Nothing ever does. It's just so slow we generally don't see it in action. It's not like a fully formed human being was birthed by monkeys. Slowly, very slowly over time little changes get passed on. People get a little taller, maybe baldness becomes more common (here's hoping).. it's these little changes over the course of thousands if not millions of years that create evolution. Add up all the little changes over time and you see how a lizard can become a bird. We have the fossils to prove it happening. Sadly I can't pull up Youtube at work or I'd send you some very convincing evidence of how something that may sound crazy is actually perfectly reasonable.
You just need time and change. And we've had plenty of those.
As to your second point well.. we know houses are built by man. We know that. So of course a house popping up on it's own is strange. We've never seen a man (or anything else) create a universe. So there's no reason to assume someone must have.
Okay i cannot make more point to the first argument at the moment but as to the second. Yes we indeed have never seen a man create a universe but how can something so magnificently complex not be created by someone when a simple house to us has to be created?0 -
Evolution.
The age of 4.54 billion years found for the Solar System and Earth is consistent with current calculations of 11 to 13 billion years for the age of the Milky Way Galaxy (based on the stage of evolution of globular cluster stars) and the age of 10 to 15 billion years for the age of the Universe (based on the recession of distant galaxies). ~http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
Modern Humans
But it was not until this year that new dating techniques revealed the tools to be far older than the oldest known Homo sapien bones, which are around 195,000 years old.
~http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081203-homo-sapien-missions.html (2008)
I admit I cannot find a Biblical source that has an "age" on modern humans. . I'd love it if someone posted a link to their belief.
But it stands to reason that there may still be some evolving going on....4.5 Billion minus 195,000 leaves us with a very small amount of human evolution so far. Genes change at a measurable pace across species and individuals. It took 4.35 Billion years of evolutionary work to get to modern humans.
Stay tuned 0 -
Okay i cannot make more point to the first argument at the moment but as to the second. Yes we indeed have never seen a man create a universe but how can something so magnificently complex not be created by someone when a simple house to us has to be created?
But you then walk into a logical trap. If something so magnificently complex needs a creator.. well that creator must be even more complex, requiring a creator of it's own, one who would need to be even MORE complex.. you set yourself up for an endless cycle of creation with each previous creator being greater than the one they created.
It's much easier to just cut out the middleman. We exist. This much we know. There's no reason to credit this existence to a higher power that is completely above and beyond us but still behaves like the worst of us.0 -
Weak or strong agnosticism is not opposite of what most atheists believe unless the atheist claims to have knowledge of god. I have yet to meet any atheist with this point of view. (although i am sure there are some out there, its just not usual). Most will admit there is no way of knowing. There are also many theists who are agnostic.This is the debate group. If we're scared to talk about things who will?
I'll tell y'all know I'm an atheist. I'm actually the mod of the atheist group here. So you know where I stand.
One word. Evidence. If you can't provide evidence that god exists I'm more than a little suspect when you tell me what he thinks and did and wants and has planned for the future.
Well understood, and thank you for speaking up.
Given the fact that you believe there must be evidence, or proof, to signify the existence of god, what proof do you have that he doesn't exists. Basically, why do you take an Atheistic stance verses a more true agnostic point of view?
You can be an agnostic anything. (even an agnostic Christian) Agnostic means without knowledge. Atheist means without god. The two are not opposites or even in competition.
Gnostic-Agnostic
Theist-Atheist
Agnostic (Merriam Webster [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic]):
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of GAt lod or a god
2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>
My contextual usage of the term Hard (True[Open to interpretation]) agnosticism was used to draw a clear line between Atheistic views and Theological view based on evidence for both supporting topics.
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm0 -
The OP asked the question, does God exist? I don't necessarily like the way that is worded because as Brett said, there is no way to prove that he does or does not. I think a more appropriate question revolves around your belief and to ask, do you believe in god, and why. To put it simply, we cannot prove there are life forms outside of our solar system, or even planet for that matter, but there are many who believe there is. Same thing with ghost, and hell, and the devil, and I would even go so far as to say there are some people who believe their football team is going to win the SuperBowl this year. Until Super Bowl Sunday, or the "rapture", or you see that bearded old guy in a red suit coming down your chimmney, you only have a belief, or as some people say, faith that something exist or will happen.
I grew up in church, and based on what I saw, I find it hard to believe that I need to follow those yahoos so I can go to heaven. But that is a whole other Great Debate...Should we believe Preachers?0 -
Love this.The OP asked the question, does God exist? I don't necessarily like the way that is worded because as Brett said, there is no way to prove that he does or does not. I think a more appropriate question revolves around your belief and to ask, do you believe in god, and why. To put it simply, we cannot prove there are life forms outside of our solar system, or even planet for that matter, but there are many who believe there is. Same thing with ghost, and hell, and the devil, and I would even go so far as to say there are some people who believe their football team is going to win the SuperBowl this year. Until Super Bowl Sunday, or the "rapture", or you see that bearded old guy in a red suit coming down your chimmney, you only have a belief, or as some people say, faith that something exist or will happen.
I grew up in church, and based on what I saw, I find it hard to believe that I need to follow those yahoos so I can go to heaven. But that is a whole other Great Debate...Should we believe Preachers?0 -
Or maybe I should start a new thread
It's much easier to just cut out the middleman. We exist. This much we know. There's no reason to credit this existence to a higher power that is completely above and beyond us but still behaves like the worst of us.
"Higher" could be Ancient Aliens. They are higher. . . *rim shot*
That's another intersting take that could blow evolution out of the water.
I have no reason to belive in Ancient Aliens. I have no reason Not to believe in them either.0 -
I have sometimes lost faith and believed it was all some bull**** story made up by some drunks who got bombed off wine and was like "LOL LETS MAKE PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE/WERE A SUPER HERO" and it kinda stuck and everyone added whatever rendition they wanted throughout time to make it stick. Or it was just something that people used as a guideline behavior to stop the world from chaos. Granted the LAW states it's illegal to kill someone etc etc people refrain from doing it because they dont want to break a commandment.
Regardless of if he is real or not, no one knows the truth until it's too late anyway. Faith is what pushes those who believe he is real. those who believe feel they are living right and will get passage to heaven and those who don't believe go to whatever ****ing land they think the go too after death, probley some grassy place with unicorns and candy corn or some **** who knows.0 -
The real question should be - is religion ultimately beneficial in this world. Some
Religions require an inordinate amount of sacrifice. There need to be real world, practical implications behind what (if any) good religion brings to the believers. Ie. does faith actually help in other realms of your life?
Why is religion to blame for most of the bloodshed that's happened in our history?
We may never be able to find out in this world weather other intelligent systems exist in the universe - so the next best thing is to apply some form of utilitarian measure behind why we do and believe in the things we do.
Just some thoughts at the top of my head..0 -
Okay i cannot make more point to the first argument at the moment but as to the second. Yes we indeed have never seen a man create a universe but how can something so magnificently complex not be created by someone when a simple house to us has to be created?
But you then walk into a logical trap. If something so magnificently complex needs a creator.. well that creator must be even more complex, requiring a creator of it's own, one who would need to be even MORE complex.. you set yourself up for an endless cycle of creation with each previous creator being greater than the one they created.
It's much easier to just cut out the middleman. We exist. This much we know. There's no reason to credit this existence to a higher power that is completely above and beyond us but still behaves like the worst of us.
Indeed but could you also not apply this same theory to the man that created a house. The process of a house being created by a man being created by something bigger? In the same why you state that the earth was created by a creator created by something more complex?0 -
I have sometimes lost faith and believed it was all some bull**** story made up by some drunks who got bombed off wine and was like "LOL LETS MAKE PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE/WERE A SUPER HERO" and it kinda stuck and everyone added whatever rendition they wanted throughout time to make it stick. Or it was just something that people used as a guideline behavior to stop the world from chaos. Granted the LAW states it's illegal to kill someone etc etc people refrain from doing it because they dont want to break a commandment.
Regardless of if he is real or not, no one knows the truth until it's too late anyway. Faith is what pushes those who believe he is real. those who believe feel they are living right and will get passage to heaven and those who don't believe go to whatever ****ing land they think the go too after death, probley some grassy place with unicorns and candy corn or some **** who knows.
Damn i thought that was heaven.....0 -
I have sometimes lost faith and believed it was all some bull**** story made up by some drunks who got bombed off wine and was like "LOL LETS MAKE PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE/WERE A SUPER HERO" and it kinda stuck and everyone added whatever rendition they wanted throughout time to make it stick. Or it was just something that people used as a guideline behavior to stop the world from chaos. Granted the LAW states it's illegal to kill someone etc etc people refrain from doing it because they dont want to break a commandment.
Regardless of if he is real or not, no one knows the truth until it's too late anyway. Faith is what pushes those who believe he is real. those who believe feel they are living right and will get passage to heaven and those who don't believe go to whatever ****ing land they think the go too after death, probley some grassy place with unicorns and candy corn or some **** who knows.
Damn i thought that was heaven.....
It only seems that way cause your with me
...now back to jesus and how real he is. 0
This discussion has been closed.