Is having children a right or a privilege?
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I don't believe its a right or a privilege, but rather a natural path. That's like asking do we have a right or a privilege to eat (ok ok, not quite as extreme).
And I don't see how applying to have children would change anything? If someone has a baby do you take it away? Or is everyone forced to have something put inside them that stops reproduction?
And back to the original question....I won't even get into the argument about children being a "gift from God".
What I will question is the above statement that it is a natural path? In what way do you mean that? Because I am 40, married for 18 years and child free by CHOICE. Does that make me unnatural? or did you mean that another way?
Just because having children is natural, that doesnt mean that not having them is unnatural.
Theyre both natural and valid choices0 -
I guess it depends on how open to it and how interested you are in other peoples religions. I wouldnt dream of getting into a debate with my muslim brother and i wasnt interested when he was an evangelical christian either, becasue the arguments were just coming from a completely diffeent planet, and ive had too much of religion being shoved down my throat. None of it rings true to me, and while i was being facetious earlier about the tooth fairy, in all seriousness, thats about the same level of belief I have in God, and just like you would be weirded out if someone started citing the tooth fairy, or debating a sensitive subject by talking about what hanuman the monkey faced hindu god would do, it all starts getting a bit exclusive.
But even as a non-believer, surely you believe in the history of Christianity and other world religions. I mean, it's easy to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist, and easy to ridicule any adult who "believes" it does, but I have to believe that you realize there really is a huge difference. I do understand you were being facetious, though.0 -
It's true it's tragic that some people aren't able to care for their kids.
However, there's something terribly wrong about having to apply to have kids. It reminds me of dystopian books such as Brave New World or 1984! Or communist China... How is the government supposed to enforce a child policy anyway? Do you suggest fines (which will probably be as efficient as in China where people bypass the one child policy all the time) or something more definitive (large scale sterilizations, forced abortions...). What is the government supposed to do about accidents? Who's going to decide what the criteria for having kids will be?
As someone else pointed out, there are people who DO have to apply to have children. It's called adoption. You go through a crazy long application process, pay huge amounts of money, have someone invade your lives and your home to make sure it's suitable for a child, and then you MIGHT be approved to be able to adopt. I'd love to adopt but I can tell you right now, I don't think I'll ever be able to because I can't afford the adoption fees. But I can get pregnant and give birth because I have insurance that will cover those medical costs. Yet I can't give a loving and caring home to a child who needs and deserves it because I live in a 2 bedroom apartment with my husband who works nights so we're never home at the same time, and I don't have thousands of dollars to pay out of pocket to be able to adopt the child. Which now that I'm typing all of this out...adoption is starting to sound like the agency is sellling the kid. So just to argue the flip side of this (not that I am agreeing with either side), how is having to apply to adopt a child to ensure it has a good home okay but the application to give birth to a child for the same reason is not? Isn't the ultimate goal to ensure the child is loved and taken care of (regardless of the monetary status of the parents for arguments sake)?
Never said a word about adoption processes. I know they're frustrating!
While you did not say anything specific about the adoption process, the statement was made that there is something terribly wrong about having to apply to have kids. My point is that people already have to apply to have kids if they are adopting. So what's the difference between having to apply to adopt a child and having to apply to give birth to a child if the point of both processes is to ensure the child is loved and taken care of? While the adopton process is frustrating do you agree that people should have to go throuh an application process to adopt?0 -
believing in the history of christianity, as in believing in christianitys existence? i believe jesus existed, yes, and i believe he was a good guy and very forward thinking for his time. Do i believe he was the son of God? No.
I do believe that religion has been very necessary throughout history as a way of making people behave, but i dont believe the stories in the bible are really true, or that there is a god up there0 -
Well, then I suppose anyone questions the existence of God and don't believe life is a gift from God, then they can just go murder or dispose of people as they "feel" like it. Is that what you wanted to hear?
Macpatti, I'd just like to let you know that while I don't necessarily agree with your viewpoints, I do enjoy discussing them with you (I do love a good debate), and just because we don't agree doesn't mean I don't want to hear your thoughts. Also, I give you a lot of kudos for sticking by what you believe even though it's not the popular opinion. Just want to make sure I get that out there.
Now, onto the content!
I find this assumption funny, like people can only be good, law-abiding people if they have God in their lives. I'm not even sure how this came up in this topic - I'm not at all talking about killing human beings that are already born, abortion, or anything like that. I'm asking if it is a right or a privilege for two people to conceive and raise a child. I find it interesting that you have to apply for pretty much everything in America - a driver's license, a bank loan, or a puppy - but any two people can get together and conceive/raise a child.
Also, I do have to defend myself a little here against the idea that all godless people would be fine with going around "murdering and disposing of people as they feel like it". Pretty much my entire existence is devoted to lessening unnecessary death and suffering in the world. I lead a strictly vegan and pacifistic lifestyle simply because of my downright abhorrence of needless violence. I don't - and do not have the desire to - cause harm or otherwise to another living being because I myself am a living human being. I use common sense to guide my decisions in life, and therefore do not need the threat of hell, the bribe of heaven, or any higher power to lead what I see as a "good life". Just as Christians do not like to be stereotyped, please do us non-believers the same courtesy.
As for the gift thing, you are absolutely welcome to view children as gifts from God. I, however, cannot agree with you there for two fundamental reasons - I actively deny the existence of God, and I also don't consider children "gifts", as they are the product of a biological process, which people choose to engage in (and follow through with). Also, on a lighter note, any "gift" that risks causing me to violently rip my perineum or vaginal muscles is not really one that I am interested in "receiving".
I simply don't believe that having as many children as you want is a right, but this is largely because I don't really understand the need to "continue our race". We, as humans, have done absolutely nothing positive for our planet - our existence has caused mass extinctions, pollution and countless other disasters on this planet that we share with innumerable other species. Our blatant disregard for natural population control methods have brought us to a world human population of 7 billion people. I just don't see what the need is to have more than one child - in my humble opinion, I believe that a person from this generation who chooses to bring more than one child into this world is doing so for greedy, selfish reasons.0 -
I would also like to say that if my being in this group offends anyone because of my religious position, I will gracefully leave. It is not my intent to come to this group with the purpose of attacking non-believers. I would never consider joining the atheist groups that are on here for that reason. I didn't join this group on my own. I was invited by someone and thought it would be fun since I like to debate. I'm not here to make enemies or get attacked, nor am I hear to belittle anyone for their beliefs or non beliefs.
Patti
I don't see anything wrong with someone backing up their arguments with their religion. Religious values are as valid as any others, even if I personnally don't share them.0 -
It's true it's tragic that some people aren't able to care for their kids.
However, there's something terribly wrong about having to apply to have kids. It reminds me of dystopian books such as Brave New World or 1984! Or communist China... How is the government supposed to enforce a child policy anyway? Do you suggest fines (which will probably be as efficient as in China where people bypass the one child policy all the time) or something more definitive (large scale sterilizations, forced abortions...). What is the government supposed to do about accidents? Who's going to decide what the criteria for having kids will be?
As someone else pointed out, there are people who DO have to apply to have children. It's called adoption. You go through a crazy long application process, pay huge amounts of money, have someone invade your lives and your home to make sure it's suitable for a child, and then you MIGHT be approved to be able to adopt. I'd love to adopt but I can tell you right now, I don't think I'll ever be able to because I can't afford the adoption fees. But I can get pregnant and give birth because I have insurance that will cover those medical costs. Yet I can't give a loving and caring home to a child who needs and deserves it because I live in a 2 bedroom apartment with my husband who works nights so we're never home at the same time, and I don't have thousands of dollars to pay out of pocket to be able to adopt the child. Which now that I'm typing all of this out...adoption is starting to sound like the agency is sellling the kid. So just to argue the flip side of this (not that I am agreeing with either side), how is having to apply to adopt a child to ensure it has a good home okay but the application to give birth to a child for the same reason is not? Isn't the ultimate goal to ensure the child is loved and taken care of (regardless of the monetary status of the parents for arguments sake)?
Never said a word about adoption processes. I know they're frustrating!
While you did not say anything specific about the adoption process, the statement was made that there is something terribly wrong about having to apply to have kids. My point is that people already have to apply to have kids if they are adopting. So what's the difference between having to apply to adopt a child and having to apply to give birth to a child if the point of both processes is to ensure the child is loved and taken care of? While the adopton process is frustrating do you agree that people should have to go throuh an application process to adopt?
I fully understand what you said and your post got me thinking. However, I am unable to make up my mind on this point! While I totally agree on how heavy the adoption processes are, the absence of any procedure scares me a little bit. We all know there are a lot of sick people in the world and I wouldn't want them to adopt for the wrong reasons!
Don't get me wrong, people are probably having kids naturally for the wrong reasons too. But having the government regulating a biological function takes things a step further. I'm pro-choice (my body, my rights) and this definitely goes against my beliefs. Plus, as I already said, I don't see how a government could enfore a child policy without turning into a dictature. And who wants to live in a dictature?0 -
I fully understand what you said and your post got me thinking. However, I am unable to make up my mind on this point! While I totally agree on how heavy the adoption processes are, the absence of any procedure scares me a little bit. We all know there are a lot of sick people in the world and I wouldn't want them to adopt for the wrong reasons!
Don't get me wrong, people are probably having kids naturally for the wrong reasons too. But having the government regulating a biological function takes things a step further. I'm pro-choice (my body, my rights) and this definitely goes against my beliefs. Plus, as I already said, I don't see how a government could enfore a child policy without turning into a dictature. And who wants to live in a dictature?
I completely agree that there should be some type of process to adopt a child. I certainly don't want a child going into a bad home life. I am also pro-choice with limitations (i.e. I do not believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control but don't believe it should be outlawed either). I think there are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. There are many people out there who outright should not have kids. Period. Sorry. It's just how it is. I agree with you that I do know what to live in a state of dictatorship. I also don't want a child living in horrible conditions. A perfect example is happening here in Arizona actually. I don't know if anyone has heard the case regarding the 5 year old girl who went missing here not long after the baby from KC. The girl her is named Jhessey Shockly (I know her name is Jessie Shockly but it's spelled weird). Anyway, she went missing and the police now believe she was killed and they are investigating it as a homicide. Her mother was arrested on Monday. The mother had previously spent time in prison in California for child abuse. All of her other children have now been taken by CPS including the baby she gave birth to after her daughter went missing. New allegations have come out as her 13-year old daughter is now stating that the 5 year old was abused, locked in a closet, had her hair pulled out, and was malnourished. She is also saying that the mother cleaned the closet the kid was locked in as well as her shoes with bleach. The mother told her kids to lie about what was happening in the home. I'm sorry but I don't believe this woman should ever be allowed to get pregnant again. Not with a history of child abuse and all of her living children (I believe 4) now living in state custody. It just seems crazy to me that someone would tell me I'm good enough to give birth on my own but I'm not good enough to adopt a child even though they would both be living in the same loving and caring home.0 -
Macpatti, I'd just like to let you know that while I don't necessarily agree with your viewpoints, I do enjoy discussing them with you (I do love a good debate), and just because we don't agree doesn't mean I don't want to hear your thoughts. Also, I give you a lot of kudos for sticking by what you believe even though it's not the popular opinion. Just want to make sure I get that out there. Now, onto the content!
I find this assumption funny, like people can only be good, law-abiding people if they have God in their lives.
Just as Christians do not like to be stereotyped, please do us non-believers the same courtesy.
I just saw this, or I would have replied sooner, so as not to leave this unanswered. I do not believe people need to have God in their lives to be law-abiding citizens. This is totally another topic, but would be a discussion about morality and to what it is grounded in. Didn't want to derail anymore, but did want to address your quote. 0 -
I just saw this, or I would have replied sooner, so as not to leave this unanswered. I do not believe people need to have God in their lives to be law-abiding citizens. This is totally another topic, but would be a discussion about morality and to what it is grounded in. Didn't want to derail anymore, but did want to address your quote.
Quite alright! We all lead busy lives.
Then I guess I am confused by your statement, that those who deny the existence of God can just murder or 'dispose of people' as they please. Maybe I took it the wrong way?0 -
Quite alright! We all lead busy lives.
Then I guess I am confused by your statement, that those who deny the existence of God can just murder or 'dispose of people' as they please. Maybe I took it the wrong way?
I was using hyperbole (and sarcasm).0 -
I think that having children is more of a privilege than a right. Just because one has the ability of have children does not mean that they should. I'm sure we can all think of people that really should not have children.
That aside, I don't want children. I'll be 35 in January and I've never wanted kids. As far as God, as a Wiccan I believe in a God and Goddess and I can see the whole children-are-a-gift-from-god (and the goddess!) part of this-- HOWEVER, I also want to point out, as a religious person, I can also separate my opinions FROM my religion. That doesn't make me any less religious than anyone else.
And for the record, though I don't believe in the tooth Fairy, I do believe in fairies (and I'm being totally serious).0 -
It's a right IMO.0
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Bonus Question: Should people have to apply to have children?
Yes. I know, I know - It is natural to re-create. Well, then you have the crappy Casey Anthonys of the world, it makes you wonder. Honestly, I wouldnt be completely upset if I had an on-off switch that I could turn on myself. I would turn it off and keep it that way. I like kids for others, not for me.0 -
Bonus Question: Should people have to apply to have children?
Yes. I know, I know - It is natural to re-create. Well, then you have the crappy Casey Anthonys of the world, it makes you wonder. Honestly, I wouldnt be completely upset if I had an on-off switch that I could turn on myself. I would turn it off and keep it that way. I like kids for others, not for me.
I want that switch, too!! :laugh:0 -
It's going to become a privilege regardless of what it is now as the world gravitates towards a single order. That is a dreadful concept. One any Chinese, free to speak, who had to sacrifice a child to satisfy the law will attest to.0
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It's going to become a privilege regardless of what it is now as the world gravitates towards a single order. That is a dreadful concept. One any Chinese, free to speak, who had to sacrifice a child to satisfy the law will attest to.
Why is it "sacrificing a child"? It's not like anyone is taking away children who are already born.
I guess I don't really see the "need" to have more than one child (well, any children, but I know that's not a popular opinion and I don't expect others to have it). But the reason families used to be so huge is because they needed extra hands on the farm or they had to increase the odds of at least one kid surviving. But why, in 2011, do people feel the need to have more than one child other than for strictly selfish (and I use this word in the least offensive way possible) reasons? Why is it viewed as a "sacrifice"?0 -
its sacrificing a child because of the system in china, either up to recently and possibly still going on, where women were FORCED into abortion, right up till full term, and even infanticide after birth because of the one child rule.0
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a lot of people have more than one child for the SAKE of their existing child.
I think a sibling is the greatest gift you can give a child0 -
Do people have a right to reproduce, or is it a privilege? Bonus Question: Should people have to apply to have children?
You probably know my stance already (haha) but I'll be back after this class to put my two cents in
It's a right, but sometimes I think it should be a privilege.
On the need basis. No, children are not a necessity in the sense of I had to have one for survival, but I couldn't imagine my world without the one I have and the other one I plan to have within the next year or 2. This is my personal complete family, 2 dogs, 2 parents, 2 kids . . . we come in pairs. Someone else's complete family is going to be composed differently.
"Sacraficing a child" - suzycreamcheese covered the forced abortions at various stages of pregnancy (if you have ever been attached to a pregnancy then you understand that it happens immediately so even an early term forced abortion no matter your stance on the matter would be a devistating loss), infanticide, and don't forget the government kidnapping children at various ages and cutting off the family from social services in a communist or socialist country where that means no benefits, no work, no money.0
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