Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.
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I don't know why, if people want to prevent women from having abortions, they don't support groups like planned parenthood. Planned Parenthood actually prevents far more abortions than they actually do. In fact abortions are barely 3% of their services. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation.
The way it is now, making abortions illegal would in fact result in our daughters, mothers, sisters dying on occasion. It would also result in many children who are displaced with no home. Year after year eventually you would end up with a pretty huge surplus of unwanted children with no where to go. Even if the majority of those children stayed with their biological families or found adoptive homes, there would still be many that wouldn't get either.
As far as the OT goes, I think if we are going to allow him to place an ad like that during a family type daytime/primetime show, then we should be able to loosen the rules on all other TV shows and commercials when it comes to anything that someone might find graphic (language too.)0 -
Correct. I do not support abortion for any reason.[/quote]@macPatti When you say Pro-life do you mean "No abortion for any reason?"
I don't understand. What do you mean you don't take me seriously?That's why I don't take you seriously.
If a doctor tells a woman that both she and her baby will not survive the pregnancy, and knows that based on test results or whatever, then of course the woman has the right to make the choice. That's different than people who claim abortions are wrong unless it's due to rape or incest.In supporting pro-life under any circumstances, you would sacrifice another person's life?0 -
So are some of you saying that, if a 12 year old girl realized she was pregnant and told her mother that she wanted an abortion because her father or brother had raped her, you think she should legally be forced to carry it? Gross0
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So are some of you saying that, if a 12 year old girl realized she was pregnant and told her mother that she wanted an abortion because her father or brother had raped her, you think she should legally be forced to carry it? Gross
Apparently, for some, they would have to carry to term and go through the psychological torture all that entails. I can't imagine how horrible that must be for anyone.0 -
Correct. I do not support abortion for any reason.@macPatti When you say Pro-life do you mean "No abortion for any reason?"
I don't understand. What do you mean you don't take me seriously?That's why I don't take you seriously.
If a doctor tells a woman that both she and her baby will not survive the pregnancy, and knows that based on test results or whatever, then of course the woman has the right to make the choice. That's different than people who claim abortions are wrong unless it's due to rape or incest.In supporting pro-life under any circumstances, you would sacrifice another person's life?
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Your first statement and your third statement contradict each other.
First you say " I do not support abortion for any reason."
Then, in the last statement you say, "If a doctor tells a woman that both she and her baby will not survive the pregnancy, and knows that based on test results or whatever, then of course the woman has the right to make the choice. That's different than people who claim abortions are wrong unless it's due to rape or incest."0 -
Correct. I do not support abortion for any reason.@macPatti When you say Pro-life do you mean "No abortion for any reason?"
Pick one. Either you ""do not support abortion for any reason"" OR you accept that "" then of course the woman has the right to make the choice"". They are mutually exclusive statements.0 -
When a proud member of the Christaliban called my friends 15 year old daughter a *kitten* on the sidewalk in front of a clinic that doesn't even provide abortion services, they both knew the score.
If a woman is going to get a pap smear, then pro-lifers are not "heckling" at them. I'd think they'd know that.I do feel sorry for all the women getting prenatal and general well-woman related exams and procedures at Planned Parenthood. It must really suck to get heckled while trying to go in to get a pap smear!0 -
Oh man - just at the outset, I agree that a political figure using this as a means for votes is a turn off, and my gut reaction is that anyone making ads like this has a way of thinking and acting that is against what I'd want in a candidate.
On the issue of abortion - I think it's awful. I mean, who doesn't? I also think the terminology and semiotics behind "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are awful. I mean geez, I'm pro-choice but not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice because like futiledevices mentioned, it is not a black and white issue. I do think that it is a public health issue that would be worsened by not having the option legally available. I also know that there are numerous reasons behind a woman deciding to have an abortion that aren't my or anyone else's business and legislation against it isn't the answer.
Why? It's not solving the problem, just forcing women that don't want a baby to have one (or to get an abortion anyhow in a questionable environment). More education, better decisions, blah blah blah, in an ideal world.
I do feel sorry for all the women getting prenatal and general well-woman related exams and procedures at Planned Parenthood. It must really suck to get heckled while trying to go in to get a pap smear!
When I was in my early 20's I had to go to PP for all health care needs that I had, because at the time I had no insurance and was too poor to go to a real doctor. Luckily I lived in Portland Oregon, I don't think I have ever seen an anti abortion protestor in real life, in Oregon.
I did once stumble into one of those crisis pregnancy centers though. They armed me with a bunch of misinformation and then we both prayed that I would never have sex again and I was sent on my way lol (I was 17 and not pregnant)0 -
False. You can choose to save your own life, Road Dog. If someone broke into my home and I felt the life of my child was at stake, it would not be morally wrong to shoot him to protect my child. I don't know that you're all that familiar with morality of the church.Pick one. Either you ""do not support abortion for any reason"" OR you accept that "" then of course the woman has the right to make the choice"". They are mutually exclusive statements.0 -
I think we can all agree that Christian extremists can and do horrible things in the name of Christ. I don't support blowing up an abotion clinic or sending mail bombs to physicians. I would never sit and heckle at little girls walking in for a pap smear.When a proud member of the Christaliban called my friends 15 year old daughter a *kitten* on the sidewalk in front of a clinic that doesn't even provide abortion services, they both knew the score.0 -
If a woman is going to get a pap smear, then pro-lifers are not "heckling" at them. I'd think they'd know that.I do feel sorry for all the women getting prenatal and general well-woman related exams and procedures at Planned Parenthood. It must really suck to get heckled while trying to go in to get a pap smear!
So they're just supposed to ignore the people screaming at them and throwing stuff? "Oh they don't really mean me."
They need volunteers to escort women into many Planned Parenthood organizations for their own safety. I've thought about doing that. Maybe I'll take my daughter when she gets a little older. I think it's disgusting what people do to these women who are often just going to get a check up.
If the anti-abortion crowd would like to try to make it illegal again by all means feel free, you have that right. I have no idea where people think they have the right to scream and throw things at strangers who are not engaged in any illegal activity.
Also anyone who opposes abortion needs to answer the question, "What do you think should be done with women who receive illegal abortions in the event it is outlawed."0 -
No. No one should be screaming or throwing things at them. That is horrible and not at all what I support. I think a group saying rosaries outside of the clinic, or having people there to allow woman an "out" is important, though. Some of the people going to have an abortion don't understand all the implications of what they're doing. And I'm not just speaking religiously here. [/quote]So they're just supposed to ignore the people screaming at them and throwing stuff? "Oh they don't really mean me."0 -
Have you ever spoken to an adult woman suffering from the psychological tortures of having an abortion when she was younger? Yeah, that happens far more frequently than a girl getting pregnant by her father and being forced to have a baby.Apparently, for some, they would have to carry to term and go through the psychological torture all that entails. I can't imagine how horrible that must be for anyone.0 -
I wish everyone, not just those having an abortion, would really see what an abortion does. I don't think the pics should be so graphic that children would need to leave the room, though. And again, I don't like that it's tied to support a political candidate. But, I don't like that so many people will claim to be pro-choice while turning their heads to what an abortion actually does. Ya know?Definitely in poor taste! I didn't look at either of the links because I don't want to see the ad or parts of that ad. I hate being subjected to that stuff!
That being said, I think that if someone is going to have an abortion they should see a short video or photos first. That should be procedure at the clinics though not on national television or billboards. I don't think most people do all that much research about abortions because they would rather not think about it and just get it done. The doctor will tell them technically how the proceedure will go but I think it's important for them really to understand everything that is happening and not just to their own body but also to that of the fetus.
I get what your saying and totally understand that. But maybe it should be part of a highschool class or something like that. Definitely not on TV or billboards. After seeing it, i think the vision is pretty well imprinted on your memory.....it at least was on mine. when i was a kid my dad took me to a bunch of pro-life ralleys and while I'm pro-life today, there's a lot of stuff that it's just not appropriate to subject a child to.
Agree with this as well. My senior year of high school, there was a group protesting as school was letting out for the day and people had brought their SMALL, like 4-5 year old children to stand and hold up sign with nasty pictures. That really ticked me off because while I am pro-life, I don't think parents should push things like, that on their children. If they wanna grow up and do it with their parents, then go for it.0 -
Have you ever spoken to an adult woman suffering from the psychological tortures of having an abortion when she was younger? Yeah, that happens far more frequently than a girl getting pregnant by her father and being forced to have a baby.Apparently, for some, they would have to carry to term and go through the psychological torture all that entails. I can't imagine how horrible that must be for anyone.
You have no idea which one happens more frequently.
Although I am sure some girls do feel bad after having an abortion later on in life. I am sure if you were surrounded by people who call abortion murder you might start to think of yourself as a murderer.0 -
[/quote]And on that note, I've had the "death"scorts swear at me and yell at me infront of my child (yes, I brought my daughter ith me to pray there when I was an unmarried mother). I've experienced plenty of harassing from those who support legal abortions. The radicals go both ways. Heck, the owner of the now closed abortion mill in Rockford came out with a chainsaw and threatened those who were praying outside (yeah, that guy seriously cooperated with evil...his clinic, after pro-lifers complained that it had not been inspected by the state in years, was closed down when the state finally inspected the mill due to sanitary issues).
No. No one should be screaming or throwing things at them. That is horrible and not at all what I support. I think a group saying rosaries outside of the clinic, or having people there to allow woman an "out" is important, though. Some of the people going to have an abortion don't understand all the implications of what they're doing. And I'm not just speaking religiously here.So they're just supposed to ignore the people screaming at them and throwing stuff? "Oh they don't really mean me."
Of all of you against those who pray and protest outside abortion mills, how many have actually just stood outside and observed what happens the entire day. Are you there when the women leave amd a pro-lifer is ther to offer her hope and comfort with groups like Rachel's Vineyard? I know the deathscorts are long gone by the time the women leave crying.0 -
I dunno, if someone called me a "death escort" I would swear at them too.0
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That wasn't Roaddog, that was me, Casper.
False. You can choose to save your own life, Road Dog. If someone broke into my home and I felt the life of my child was at stake, it would not be morally wrong to shoot him to protect my child. I don't know that you're all that familiar with morality of the church.Pick one. Either you ""do not support abortion for any reason"" OR you accept that "" then of course the woman has the right to make the choice"". They are mutually exclusive statements.
"Pro-Lifers" want very much to make any and all abortion illegal and therefore unavailable. When that happens, a woman with a dangerous pregnancy WILL NOT be able to choose to save their own life, the legislature will have made that choice for them.
EDIT to add,,, I'm a father and a foster father and a grandfather. I love each and every and all of my children. I hate abortion. I find it horrible and repulsive and it should never happen and it should never be needed. However, I understand that Prohibition of something that people want doesn't work and has never worked. Alcohol, drugs, non-marital sex, speeding. Prohibition of something that is produced and is desired has never eradicated the wanted thing. In each and every case prohibition has only made the wanted thing more expensive, more profitable, and more dangerous.
IMHO - Abortion must be safe for the mother, therefore it must be legal. The question is, how can we all work together to make it very very rare?0 -
If a woman is going to get a pap smear, then pro-lifers are not "heckling" at them. I'd think they'd know that.
Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).
I also understand that it doesn't really matter why someone is going in - they are protesting the organization and don't want these women associating with one that provides abortions (even if it's a very small percentage of all services). Just from a quick exposure to protesters, though, the demeanor was mean and hateful and eerily similar to the protestors that regularly show up at gay pride events. Maybe I'm just amalgamating them in my head, or maybe it was just a bad coincidence...0 -
Exactly, there is no way they would be able to tell which person was receiving which treatment. I did have a friend in TX who said she was heckled by protesters when she went to get birth control.If a woman is going to get a pap smear, then pro-lifers are not "heckling" at them. I'd think they'd know that.
Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).
I also understand that it doesn't really matter why someone is going in - they are protesting the organization and don't want these women associate with one that provides abortions (even if it's a very small percentage of all services).
This kind of stigma would actually prevent women from seeking birth control making it more likely for them to get pregnant in the first place. Its one of those cut your nose to spite your face situations.0 -
Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).
I also understand that it doesn't really matter why someone is going in - they are protesting the organization and don't want these women associating with one that provides abortions (even if it's a very small percentage of all services). Just from a quick exposure to protesters, though, the demeanor was mean and hateful and eerily similar to the protestors that regularly show up at gay pride events. Maybe I'm just amalgamating them in my head, or maybe it was just a bad coincidence...
Oh I'm sure you probably saw a few of the same faces. Or at least the same types of people.
After all it's their religion, why shouldn't you and everyone else have to follow it? :ohwell:0 -
I don't call them that, I address them either "sir" or "ma'am" and I try to talk to them, not yell at them.I dunno, if someone called me a "death escort" I would swear at them too.0 -
So you're equally against those who are part of the Rainbow Sash movement who protest outside of and inside churches, correct? Or do you only support freedom of protest when it goes along with your agenda?Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).
I also understand that it doesn't really matter why someone is going in - they are protesting the organization and don't want these women associating with one that provides abortions (even if it's a very small percentage of all services). Just from a quick exposure to protesters, though, the demeanor was mean and hateful and eerily similar to the protestors that regularly show up at gay pride events. Maybe I'm just amalgamating them in my head, or maybe it was just a bad coincidence...
Oh I'm sure you probably saw a few of the same faces. Or at least the same types of people.
After all it's their religion, why shouldn't you and everyone else have to follow it? :ohwell:0 -
I find it hard to believe that someone whose JOB it is to make safe passage for someone would start picking verbal fights with protestors for no reason.
Either way, I do support their right to protest. As wrong as I believe they are.
Have a great day all! I am off to the gym!0 -
This is the one our Pro-Life Club goes to pray the rosary. I've never heard of any tormenting. Not that I doubt your friend's word, just that I've never seen it myself. I think it's horrible to shout out nasty things at people entering the clinic. Not cool.Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).0 -
So you're equally against those who are part of the Rainbow Sash movement who protest outside of and inside churches, correct? Or do you only support freedom of protest when it goes along with your agenda?
Never heard of them 'till now. And no I don't support them. I feel if the church would like to discriminate they have that right as a religious organization. The gays should just wise up and stop trying to be accepted by a group that clearly doesn't want them.
I don't think the two groups are to be compared though. Rainbow Sash attends church services wearing a ribbon and keeping silent. They are trying to accomplish a goal (however screwy) for themselves. Not force their way of life on others.0 -
Sorry, I meant to include you, too, because you both said something similar.That wasn't Roaddog, that was me, Casper.
My statements to not contradict each other. I'm only speaking from Catholic morality here, though. It is not morally wrong for a person to want to save their life. In fact, it is a most basic impulse for people to want to do so. There are circumstances in which a person might be willing to sacrifice his life to save another’s (for instance, a soldier dying for his country, a parent dying to save his/her child). The general rule in Catholic moral thinking is that we cannot will to do an evil act in order to accomplish a good goal. It is sometimes hard to apply this principle to difficult situations but that is the rule that governs the process. When a mother is told that her life is in danger because she is pregnant, she should look for ways to save both her life and the life of her child. It may be that when she acts to save her own life that the life of the baby is lost. She is not morally guilty in such a case if her intention was not to kill the child. A direct act of abortion, it seems to me, is not justifiable. An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable. I know this may sound like “splitting hairs” but it is actually a very important distinction. A moral act is always evaluated with the intention of the one committing the action in mind. What a woman intends when she makes decisions regarding the life that depends on her is the area where this discussion should take place.0 -
""A direct act of abortion, it seems to me, is not justifiable. An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable.""
SO - "Abortion" is never Ok. But "Clinical removal of an embryo that will end a dangerous pregnancy" is Okie?0 -
Again:
I would bet that the vast majority of "Pro-Choice" folks feel this way. Just almost nobody really "Likes" abortion.I'm a father and a foster father and a grandfather. I love each and every and all of my children. I hate abortion. I find it horrible and repulsive and it should never happen and it should never be needed. However, I understand that Prohibition of something that people want doesn't work and has never worked. Alcohol, drugs, non-marital sex, speeding. Prohibition of something that is produced and is desired has never eradicated the wanted thing. In each and every case prohibition has only made the wanted thing more expensive, more profitable, and more dangerous.
IMHO - Abortion must be safe for the mother, therefore it must be legal. The question is, how can we all work together to make it very very rare?
Re: the original question. A group with an agenda. Yes,,, show Mr. & Mrs. America that while they're trying to watch a ballgame and eat a pretzel. Good luck with that.0 -
I can't believe that's what you got out of my explanation from the Catholic church. The question was regarding the uncommon situation where a woman is told that she would die if she carried a baby full term and delivered. It is not morally wrong to save one's own life. Just as I gave the analogy of my shooting someone who I thought was endangering the life of my child.""A direct act of abortion, it seems to me, is not justifiable. An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable.""
SO - "Abortion" is never Ok. But "Clinical removal of an embryo that will end a dangerous pregnancy" is Okie?0
This discussion has been closed.