Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.
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You can make abortion rare by not making the mother worry about how she can possibly afford the costs of a pregnancy and birth. You can make abortion rare by helping people who have trouble affording food, shelter, etc instead of calling them welfare leeches who should have kept their legs closed. You can make abortion rare by helping that young mother continue her education without going into a level of debt she will never get out of and by helping with real costs of daycare. You can make abortion rare by teaching kids about safe sex instead of abstinence only.Again:
I would bet that the vast majority of "Pro-Choice" folks feel this way. Just almost nobody really "Likes" abortion.I'm a father and a foster father and a grandfather. I love each and every and all of my children. I hate abortion. I find it horrible and repulsive and it should never happen and it should never be needed. However, I understand that Prohibition of something that people want doesn't work and has never worked. Alcohol, drugs, non-marital sex, speeding. Prohibition of something that is produced and is desired has never eradicated the wanted thing. In each and every case prohibition has only made the wanted thing more expensive, more profitable, and more dangerous.
IMHO - Abortion must be safe for the mother, therefore it must be legal. The question is, how can we all work together to make it very very rare?
Re: the original question. A group with an agenda. Yes,,, show Mr. & Mrs. America that while they're trying to watch a ballgame and eat a pretzel. Good luck with that.
Of course, all those things will require money and are almost always voted down by the groups that claim to be pro life. Mostly, you can make abortion rare by having more people, particularly those in power, who are really pro life and not just pro fetus.0 -
IMHO - Abortion must be safe for the mother, therefore it must be legal. The question is, how can we all work together to make it very very rare?You can make abortion rare by not making the mother worry about how she can possibly afford the costs of a pregnancy and birth. You can make abortion rare by helping people who have trouble affording food, shelter, etc instead of calling them welfare leeches who should have kept their legs closed. You can make abortion rare by helping that young mother continue her education without going into a level of debt she will never get out of and by helping with real costs of daycare. You can make abortion rare by teaching kids about safe sex instead of abstinence only.
Of course, all those things will require money and are almost always voted down by the groups that claim to be pro life. Mostly, you can make abortion rare by having more people, particularly those in power, who are really pro life and not just pro fetus.
I agree 100%.
If I ever were to have an abortion, it would be because I am not ready, not able financially and or emotionally to have a child and because all other methods of birth control failed.
Thank you to the person who said that any reasonably intelligent person knows what happens during an abortion.
I do have one question though, the comment was made that an abortion to save the life of the mother was not acceptable. My question, seriously, how many procedures are there that the baby could be saved even if the mother died. It's my impression that usually it's the baby goes or they both go.0 -
I don't call them that, I address them either "sir" or "ma'am" and I try to talk to them, not yell at them.I dunno, if someone called me a "death escort" I would swear at them too.
Did you consider that they probably don't want to talk to you? Why not just go live your own life instead of trying to police someone else's decisions?0 -
Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know0
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I wish that were the case for everyone having an abortion. I think some women don't really understand all the implications. Again, I'm not just talking about religion. I know an atheist who had an abortion who lives with the psychological effects.Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know0 -
I would say that surgery can be very hard on a person. Any kind of surgery can.
I had an abortion at 20 weeks because my fetus had died, a wanted fetus that would not abort on its own. I was so glad to be able to go into a hospital and have it done. I can't fathom women who have bad things happen during the later part of their pregnancy (when they are visably pregnant) having to go to a Planned Parenthood. I can just imagine what some protestors might say. How awful.
I would also say, many of the images in the commerical looked like miscarried older fetuses. Most women do not carry a pregnancy into the later stages to abort it on a whim.0 -
So, my praying outside on public property is policing someone else's life? Seriously? Sorry, but a few have said (without my intiating any conversation) some pretty nasty things to me, including using foul language, because I was standing there praying with my daughter. There are rude people on both sides of the issue, I acknowledge that there are some pro-lifers who are wrong in their approach, why can't you do the same of those who are pro-choice (abortion)?
I don't call them that, I address them either "sir" or "ma'am" and I try to talk to them, not yell at them.I dunno, if someone called me a "death escort" I would swear at them too.
Did you consider that they probably don't want to talk to you? Why not just go live your own life instead of trying to police someone else's decisions?0 -
You are correct, it's a multi-front battle. Also throw in promoting healthy marriages because that helps society decrease it's poverty, and healthy male role models are also vital. However, I think it would be better to be like some European societies that help a parent stay home for the first year of the child's life, daycare is not the answer and we need to work toward moving away from institutional care (daycare) for babies (and I make my living working in childcare, but think it is not healthy for children to be away from their parents as long as they are each day). And yes, I am a pro-life from conception to natural death conservative!
You can make abortion rare by not making the mother worry about how she can possibly afford the costs of a pregnancy and birth. You can make abortion rare by helping people who have trouble affording food, shelter, etc instead of calling them welfare leeches who should have kept their legs closed. You can make abortion rare by helping that young mother continue her education without going into a level of debt she will never get out of and by helping with real costs of daycare. You can make abortion rare by teaching kids about safe sex instead of abstinence only.Again:
I would bet that the vast majority of "Pro-Choice" folks feel this way. Just almost nobody really "Likes" abortion.I'm a father and a foster father and a grandfather. I love each and every and all of my children. I hate abortion. I find it horrible and repulsive and it should never happen and it should never be needed. However, I understand that Prohibition of something that people want doesn't work and has never worked. Alcohol, drugs, non-marital sex, speeding. Prohibition of something that is produced and is desired has never eradicated the wanted thing. In each and every case prohibition has only made the wanted thing more expensive, more profitable, and more dangerous.
IMHO - Abortion must be safe for the mother, therefore it must be legal. The question is, how can we all work together to make it very very rare?
Re: the original question. A group with an agenda. Yes,,, show Mr. & Mrs. America that while they're trying to watch a ballgame and eat a pretzel. Good luck with that.
Of course, all those things will require money and are almost always voted down by the groups that claim to be pro life. Mostly, you can make abortion rare by having more people, particularly those in power, who are really pro life and not just pro fetus.0 -
Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know
I love hearing people's experiences! I agree that some people (those with a good head on their shoulders) do the research first and I'm greatful for those people. Some people don't and that is sad. Do you think that if you told them you didn't want to know about it they would have stopped talking about it or that they would have insisted on telling you all of the details?0 -
On a more political note, it bothers me that a man from Washington, who has never met me, believes he has the authority to tell me what I, an adult, can and cannot do with my own body, and what responsibilities I am expected to take on.
Here's my political view: My opinion is based on the fact that I am very protective of individuals rights. I don't care what a person does with THEIR life as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of another, in this case, the child. Politicians that are pro-life because of moral and ethic reasons rather than religious reasons (like myself) have argued that there opinion is based on the right to life. Since I can't express myself enough, I'll add a statement that I strongly agree with.. Ron Paul,
"In the 1960s when abortion was still illegal, I witnessed, as an OB/GYN resident, the abortion of a fetus that weighed approximately 2 pounds. It was placed in a bucket, crying and struggling to breathe, and the medical personnel pretended not to notice. Soon the crying stopped. This harrowing event forced me to think more seriously about this important issue. That same day in the OB suite, an early delivery occurred and the infant boy was only slightly larger than the one that was just aborted. But in this room everybody did everything conceivable to save this child's life. My conclusion that day was that we were overstepping the bounds of morality by picking and choosing who should live and who should die. There was no consistent moral basis to the value of life under these circumstances. Some people believe that being pro-choice is being on the side of freedom. I've never understood how killing a human being, albeit a small one in a special place, is portrayed as a precious right."
So if we say it's ok to take a life- a beating human heart at infancy. Is it then ok to take a life-human beating heart, at 2 years, 10 years, 75 years of age? If a mother says it's her right to decide to have an abortion, why wouldn't a mother have the right to terminate her toddler or young adult? If a doctor is legally obligated to do everything in his power to keep a premature baby alive, why the double standard that say he/she can terminate one also?
I'd also like to add that sex is a responsibility. Pregnancy is ALWAYS a risk. If you aren't prepared to have a child, you shouldn't have sex. Period. I don't want a child right now but I too am on birth control, in fact use two forms to be extra cautious. If for some reason I were to get pregnant right now. I would adjust my life accordingly and my significant other and I would do what was necessary to raise a child. As I did when I was 19 and found out I was pregnant and my life has only changed for the better. Abortion because it's convenient was never an option for me.0 -
@fbmandy55 - I decided not to quote your entire post in the interests of saving space. It is an interesting post, and the quote from Ron Paul is worthy of note. I can quite understand that an extremely late-term, live-birth abortion (very rare, I believe, and almost certainly a result of the illegality of abortion in that period - the majority of modern legal abortions are performed before the foetus is even faintly viable independently of the mother), would be sufficiently harrowing to shape someone's views quite radically.
However, what few candidates seem to have considered is the condition of many women who suffered (I use the word advisedly), and continue to suffer, illegal, unsafe and substandard abortions around the world. Even today, many thousands of women every year die, or suffer serious medical complications, through unsafe abortions, primarily undertaken because the procedure is illegal in their home country. Whatever your views on the ability of the foetus to feel pain, in a society where abortion is illegal, it too is more horrendously affected - by late term, live-birth abortions, as described by Mr Paul, and other, yet more primitive means of abortion. This article provides interesting statistics.
http://isla.igc.org/Features/Globalization/AbortionsEng.html
What is evident is that criminalising abortion will not stop the practise, it will merely drive providers and their patients underground, where the conditions and treatment of both mother and foetus will inevitably be compromised and unsafe. I am not a US citizen, and find the fierce debate about candidates views on private matters such as abortion frankly rather silly, and distracting from the principal point of their ability to govern effectively. Nonetheless, my vote in the US environment, if I had one, would certainly go to the candidate taking serious practical steps to make abortions rarer, to reduce the necessity, rather than to someone intent on criminalising the process and putting many women's lives unneccessarily on the line.
I agree that sex is a responsibility, and I do think it is deeply irresponsible to use abortion as a form of birth control. However, I do believe that to remove the choice, or the option, from women, is misguided in the extreme. To attempt to police a woman's choice about her body and her future, and to dictate what her conscience should be, sets a dangerous precedent, and ignores the rational intellect, freedom and self-determination that is expected of and for (western, educated) women in almost every other aspect of life.0 -
Yet about 98% of abortions are because of the "birth control" mentality. So, we are talking about a huge majority of abortions happening as a form of "birth control" 53 million US citizens have been aborted since the Roe decision, how is that a "rare" use of abortion?
I agree that sex is a responsibility, and I do think it is deeply irresponsible to use abortion as a form of birth control. However, I do believe that to remove the choice, or the option, from women, is misguided in the extreme. To attempt to police a woman's choice about her body and her future, and to dictate what her conscience should be, sets a dangerous precedent, and ignores the rational intellect, freedom and self-determination that is expected of and for (western, educated) women in almost every other aspect of life.0 -
@fbmandy55 - I decided not to quote your entire post in the interests of saving space. It is an interesting post, and the quote from Ron Paul is worthy of note. I can quite understand that an extremely late-term, live-birth abortion (very rare, I believe, and almost certainly a result of the illegality of abortion in that period - the majority of modern legal abortions are performed before the foetus is even faintly viable independently of the mother), would be sufficiently harrowing to shape someone's views quite radically.
What is evident is that criminalising abortion will not stop the practise, it will merely drive providers and their patients underground, where the conditions and treatment of both mother and foetus will inevitably be compromised and unsafe. I am not a US citizen, and find the fierce debate about candidates views on private matters such as abortion frankly rather silly, and distracting from the principal point of their ability to govern effectively. Nonetheless, my vote in the US environment, if I had one, would certainly go to the candidate taking serious practical steps to make abortions rarer, to reduce the necessity, rather than to someone intent on criminalising the process and putting many women's lives unneccessarily on the line.
I agree that sex is a responsibility, and I do think it is deeply irresponsible to use abortion as a form of birth control. However, I do believe that to remove the choice, or the option, from women, is misguided in the extreme. To attempt to police a woman's choice about her body and her future, and to dictate what her conscience should be, sets a dangerous precedent, and ignores the rational intellect, freedom and self-determination that is expected of and for (western, educated) women in almost every other aspect of life.
I should have also mentioned, based on Paul's quote, that he and I share the view that abortion, like many things, does NOT belong in the jurisdiction of the federal government but rather the individual states. I don't think the federal government should have any role in it whatsoever. I stated yesterday that in the case of a mother dying, I am ok with enducing labor and leaving the childs life up to nature (or God's will) whatever one prefers to say, as long as an effort is made to save the life.
In the case of abortion based on convenience, I firmly believe the right of the child to have a life trumps the mothers right to make a choice.0 -
Yet about 98% of abortions are because of the "birth control" mentality. So, we are talking about a huge majority of abortions happening as a form of "birth control" 53 million US citizens have been aborted since the Roe decision, how is that a "rare" use of abortion?
I agree that sex is a responsibility, and I do think it is deeply irresponsible to use abortion as a form of birth control. However, I do believe that to remove the choice, or the option, from women, is misguided in the extreme. To attempt to police a woman's choice about her body and her future, and to dictate what her conscience should be, sets a dangerous precedent, and ignores the rational intellect, freedom and self-determination that is expected of and for (western, educated) women in almost every other aspect of life.
You quote a part of her post that doen't mention her using the term rare. She said that late-term, live birth abortions are rare - and I believe illegal. She didn't say that using abortion as birth control was rare.0 -
Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know
I love hearing people's experiences! I agree that some people (those with a good head on their shoulders) do the research first and I'm greatful for those people. Some people don't and that is sad. Do you think that if you told them you didn't want to know about it they would have stopped talking about it or that they would have insisted on telling you all of the details?
They made it seem like that is how they did it for everyone in that clinic so I didnt ask not to.I also wanted to be fully aware of my actions. I knew it wouldnt change my mind,because at the time I 100% believed I was making the right decision.I stand by that decision to this day.Would I make the same choice now? No probobly not,but my life is compleatly diffrent than it was then.0 -
I don't buy into the whole, "People are going to do it anyway, so make it legal and safe for them" bit.0
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Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know
I love hearing people's experiences! I agree that some people (those with a good head on their shoulders) do the research first and I'm greatful for those people. Some people don't and that is sad. Do you think that if you told them you didn't want to know about it they would have stopped talking about it or that they would have insisted on telling you all of the details?
They made it seem like that is how they did it for everyone in that clinic so I didnt ask not to.I also wanted to be fully aware of my actions. I knew it wouldnt change my mind,because at the time I 100% believed I was making the right decision.I stand by that decision to this day.Would I make the same choice now? No probobly not,but my life is compleatly diffrent than it was then.
Thanks for sharing. I like that you made an informed decision....on a totally unrelated note, love your before and after pics! you look amazing!0 -
Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know
I love hearing people's experiences! I agree that some people (those with a good head on their shoulders) do the research first and I'm greatful for those people. Some people don't and that is sad. Do you think that if you told them you didn't want to know about it they would have stopped talking about it or that they would have insisted on telling you all of the details?
They made it seem like that is how they did it for everyone in that clinic so I didnt ask not to.I also wanted to be fully aware of my actions. I knew it wouldnt change my mind,because at the time I 100% believed I was making the right decision.I stand by that decision to this day.Would I make the same choice now? No probobly not,but my life is compleatly diffrent than it was then.
Thanks for sharing. I like that you made an informed decision....on a totally unrelated note, love your before and after pics! you look amazing!
Thank you.0 -
Ive had an abortion,and i reserched it before hand. I was also shown the ultra sound. They explained to me in great detail what they were doing I cant be the only one so I think people do know
I love hearing people's experiences! I agree that some people (those with a good head on their shoulders) do the research first and I'm greatful for those people. Some people don't and that is sad. Do you think that if you told them you didn't want to know about it they would have stopped talking about it or that they would have insisted on telling you all of the details?
They made it seem like that is how they did it for everyone in that clinic so I didnt ask not to.I also wanted to be fully aware of my actions. I knew it wouldnt change my mind,because at the time I 100% believed I was making the right decision.I stand by that decision to this day.Would I make the same choice now? No probobly not,but my life is compleatly diffrent than it was then.
Thanks for sharing. I like that you made an informed decision....on a totally unrelated note, love your before and after pics! you look amazing!
Agreed!0 -
I don't buy into the whole, "People are going to do it anyway, so make it legal and safe for them" bit.
I think history would prove you wrong - abortions of one sort or another have been happening since time immemorial, and will undoubtedly continue to happen as long as women fall pregnant unexpectedly. The illegality of the process in some countries has not stopped the practise, merely made it covert and more dangerous.0 -
Yet about 98% of abortions are because of the "birth control" mentality. So, we are talking about a huge majority of abortions happening as a form of "birth control" 53 million US citizens have been aborted since the Roe decision, how is that a "rare" use of abortion?
I agree that sex is a responsibility, and I do think it is deeply irresponsible to use abortion as a form of birth control. However, I do believe that to remove the choice, or the option, from women, is misguided in the extreme. To attempt to police a woman's choice about her body and her future, and to dictate what her conscience should be, sets a dangerous precedent, and ignores the rational intellect, freedom and self-determination that is expected of and for (western, educated) women in almost every other aspect of life.
You quote a part of her post that doen't mention her using the term rare. She said that late-term, live birth abortions are rare - and I believe illegal. She didn't say that using abortion as birth control was rare.
Thank you - you got there before me! I'd love to know where regmama got 98% from? Are you including those abortions where non-abortive birth control was used, but failed? Or are you asserting that 98% of abortions happen because women failed to take any contraceptive precautions at all?0 -
Brett, Why do you assume that pro-lifers are religious? Why can't an atheist believe that life begins at conception and abortion is murder? Don't get caught up in thinking all pro-lifers are there to tell the mom she's going to hell based on religion. Can't someone just believe abortion is wrong and want to protest? For me, it's not so much condemning the woman as it is saving the baby's life.After all it's their religion, why shouldn't you and everyone else have to follow it?0 -
I agree with Bill Hicks. You're not a person until you're in my phone book.0
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Oh, I'm not doubting illegal abortions happen. I don't subscribe to "Make it legal because people will do it anyway" mentality.I think history would prove you wrong - abortions of one sort or another have been happening since time immemorial, and will undoubtedly continue to happen as long as women fall pregnant unexpectedly. The illegality of the process in some countries has not stopped the practise, merely made it covert and more dangerous.0 -
I'm an atheist and I am pro-choice until the fetus can survive naturally outside the womb. Then I am pro-life. Since there is no definative proof of the fetus being a sentient human being in it's early stages, I would err on the side of a womans freedom. I'm not about to tell someone what to do with their body on a hunch. However, once the fetus could successfully live on it's own, I think it has rights as well.0
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I should have also mentioned, based on Paul's quote, that he and I share the view that abortion, like many things, does NOT belong in the jurisdiction of the federal government but rather the individual states. I don't think the federal government should have any role in it whatsoever. I stated yesterday that in the case of a mother dying, I am ok with enducing labor and leaving the childs life up to nature (or God's will) whatever one prefers to say, as long as an effort is made to save the life.
In the case of abortion based on convenience, I firmly believe the right of the child to have a life trumps the mothers right to make a choice.
I'm not sure how much difference it makes, whether it's federal government or state government making the rules. It is still a legislative body dictating the options and choices of an individual in a way that would be inconceivable in relation to most other areas of life.
I fear our views are somewhat different on your latter statement. Until the foetus is independently viable outside the womb, in my view, the rights of the woman take precedence. If something cannot survive without your body, as far as I'm concerned, it remains your right to choose whether or not to support that entity to your own physical and emotional cost, as long as it is reliant on you. Once the foetus is viable without the mother's body, then, and only then, in my opinion, it gains equal, but not superior, rights to be considered.0 -
I don't buy into the whole, "People are going to do it anyway, so make it legal and safe for them" bit.
Ok Patti. But if it's illegal there will need to be a punishment for these girls. They ARE going to do it anyway. Maybe not all, but a decent number of them. History and the world as it is now shows that. You can't just make it illegal and assume it's all stopped. Making it illegal means there's now a punishment aspect involved.
So what is it?
Also I know some atheists can be and are pro-life. But I know I'm not talking out of school when I say the vast majority are religious believers.0 -
I don't think for a second making it illegal means it will stop. I do believe it will stop some, especially ones who are law abiding citizens, which you cannot tell me are not the majority of people seeking an abortion.Ok Patti. But if it's illegal there will need to be a punishment for these girls. They ARE going to do it anyway. Maybe not all, but a decent number of them. History and the world as it is now shows that. You can't just make it illegal and assume it's all stopped. Making it illegal means there's now a punishment aspect involved.
My point is that pro-life doesn't have to equate to religion. When I speak out against abortion, I'm not forcing my religious views on someone. I'm speaking up for the babies who have no voice. Just as my telling someone murder is wrong doesn't have to mean I'm forcing my religious beliefs on them.Also I know some atheists can be and are pro-life. But I know I'm not talking out of school when I say the vast majority are religious believers.0 -
Oh, I'm not doubting illegal abortions happen. I don't subscribe to "Make it legal because people will do it anyway" mentality.I think history would prove you wrong - abortions of one sort or another have been happening since time immemorial, and will undoubtedly continue to happen as long as women fall pregnant unexpectedly. The illegality of the process in some countries has not stopped the practise, merely made it covert and more dangerous.
I seem to remember we had exactly this debate on another topic?! :laugh: I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one as well. I just don't think women should be punished for becoming pregnant unexpectedly by being forced to endure unsafe processes, when safe ones are available. By making abortion illegal, this is essentially what would be forced upon women who make this choice. That some people don't necessarily agree with the choice they are making doesn't justify, in my view, forcing them to risk their health and lives to make the decision they feel is right for them.
I'd be interested to know your views on appropriate punishments for enduring an illegal abortion, as well as Brett. What would you do with someone who has made this choice, against the law?0 -
You do realize that a fetus can survive without the mother's body for months before she is scheduled to deliver, right? So, are you saying you believe abortion is okay during the earlier stages of pregnancy, but not later?Once the foetus is viable without the mother's body, then, and only then, in my opinion, it gains equal, but not superior, rights to be considered.0
This discussion has been closed.