Free will?
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atomiclauren
Posts: 689 Member
I saw this earlier - I know it's a little snarky and you could insert any number of activities at the bottom but I'm curious about religious viewpoints on this or if anyone has better examples..
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Actually, just because God has a Will for everyone doesn't mean that there is no free will. Many choose to not seek out God's Will for their life (their free will to choose this action). Many seek out God's Will but don't shut up enough to listen or are too afraid to make the changes that are required to live that will. Few seek out and make the changes to do what God Wills them to do (Mother Theresa for example). Does that help clarify things?0
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I never really go in for "free will" as it's used religiously. Yes we have the option of doing a number of actions at any given moment. But at the end of our lives we'll have only ever made one set of choices. So "free will" is relative to time.
"Free will" as given to us by God is at best a cruel joke. What they're saying is that God gave us the option to not believe in him. Then punishes us if we take that option. It's unbelievably cruel.0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.0 -
I mean, it's never clear clear since there are varied interpretations - I see the interpretation of "God's will" and "man's free will" existing together among others I've come across (a more powerful "God's plan" where everything is planned out and the "choices" you have made were "planned").
Maybe like doing good deeds, feeding hungry people, was someone's "free will" but also part of "God's plan."
I think I am in a loop...lol0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.
*kitten* created by God and given the free will to carry out their urges. So why not blame God? Why should he get credit for good deeds humans do and be let off the hook for the bad? If he created everything he gets all credit and all blame.
Unless you believe in the red demon who influences people's thoughts. Then we have other rabbit holes to crawl down...0 -
I sense a game of semantics coming.
I don't think you can have "a plan" for the universe along with everyone and everything in it that ever was and will be while at the same time laying blame on the chess pieces for moving in a way that was apparently according to plan.0 -
Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.0
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Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.0 -
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.0 -
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.
Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?0 -
Again, God pours out his mercy on all since we all fail to live 100% holy lives 100% of the time our entire lives. I will not state that I even know the extent of God's mercy, but I know that it is greater than any amount of mercy we can imagine.Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.
Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.
*kitten* created by God and given the free will to carry out their urges. So why not blame God? Why should he get credit for good deeds humans do and be let off the hook for the bad? If he created everything he gets all credit and all blame.
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.0 -
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
Why not? God could have made murder an impossibility if it's so wrong. He could have made humans who live forever. Or (being less ridiculous) he could have decided to not include such a great capacity for aggression in his chosen creation.
Murder's an extreme. How about lust? God definitely has a list of how he wants you to behave regarding your bedroom activities. So why not just make people who aren't walking hormones some of the time? Why fill me with the desire to sleep with as many females as possible and then tell me "NO! You aren't allowed to do that!" If God created everything he created that impulse in all of us. And then wants to punish us for it.
It's one thing if you take the view that human beings are completely in control and responsible for their own actions. But if every drive and desire we have came from our creator he shares the blame.
But we're back to where we always are in this debate "God gave you free will, so when good things happen that's because of God's majesty and you should praise and thank him for it. And when bad things happen that's entirely your own fault and you deserve to be punished eternally."
If he made me and everything there is all blame falls on him. And he should know that, being omnipotent/omniscient and all...0 -
I thank God for the bad too, even the self-created bad. Not only that but I try to offer it up for souls (yes, including yours). Great good can come from suffering if one offers it up for others or in reperation for their own sins.The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
Why not? God could have made murder an impossibility if it's so wrong. He could have made humans who live forever. Or (being less ridiculous) he could have decided to not include such a great capacity for aggression in his chosen creation.
Murder's an extreme. How about lust? God definitely has a list of how he wants you to behave regarding your bedroom activities. So why not just make people who aren't walking hormones some of the time? Why fill me with the desire to sleep with as many females as possible and then tell me "NO! You aren't allowed to do that!" If God created everything he created that impulse in all of us. And then wants to punish us for it.
It's one thing if you take the view that human beings are completely in control and responsible for their own actions. But if every drive and desire we have came from our creator he shares the blame.
But we're back to where we always are in this debate "God gave you free will, so when good things happen that's because of God's majesty and you should praise and thank him for it. And when bad things happen that's entirely your own fault and you deserve to be punished eternally."
If he made me and everything there is all blame falls on him. And he should know that, being omnipotent/omniscient and all...0 -
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
You're not talking about Free Will vs. Fate/God's Will/Plan, though. You're talking about Free Will vs...well nothing; it's just Free Will.
Are we talking about God's plan meaning what God says we should do...or are we talking about God's plan in a "this is fate, His Will be done, no avoiding it"?
I believe the point is that the all-powerful super being who created and is in charge of the universe gets some credit for allowing the possibility for terrible things to happen. Just because he didn't pull the trigger on the gun that kills a 2 year old in a gang war, doesn't mean he walks away without some responsibility. It doesn't really matter if God plays a direct role in our lives or not if he set the clock in motion and knows everything that has and will happen.
Temporal mechanics, God, and Free Will. The stuff of a speculative fiction and star trek geek debates for ages now.0 -
Again, God pours out his mercy on all since we all fail to live 100% holy lives 100% of the time our entire lives. I will not state that I even know the extent of God's mercy, but I know that it is greater than any amount of mercy we can imagine.Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?
But to be clear - Hindus are wrong in this case? I guess what I'm getting at here is something for a completely different topic - the coexistence of multiple religions with multiple destinies. I brought it up in another topic, too, but it was a little convoluted.0 -
is doing something like giving to charity or feeding the homeless because you believe your God wants you to and reward you for it in heaven really free will? or is it doing something now to get a reward in an afterlife?
Whats better, to do something charitable because a god might be watching, or doing something charitable because you believe its the right thing to do?0 -
God cannot be all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. It's impossible.0
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Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
The Catholic faith has also taught many things over history and then recanted them. That you must buy your way into heaven. That you can have a mistress, only if you have enough money to buy a title for one and that it was god's will to burn people who read scripture and interpreted it differently than the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc say it was to be read.
How do you know what they say now is what you should believe? Just another reason for my confusion and distrust of churches...0
