Legal for Doctors to lie to their female patients...
castadiva
Posts: 2,016 Member
OK, this'll put the cat among the pigeons, I know, but I seriously want to know how anyone can justify the laws that have been passed in Arizona and proposed in Kansas that allow Doctors to legally withold information about issues discovered in prenatal treatment that might, in the Doctors' opinion, lead to that patient seeking an abortion? That doesn't just cover information about diabilities and foetal development, but also things like ectopic pregnancies, which are almost always fatal to the pregnant woman, and are rarely viable in any case.
While the bill in Arizona is posited as protection from malpractice suits for doctors who are alleged to have witheld information about disabilities and birth defects, there are no protections built in that would insist that doctors inform women whose own life is at risk if they continue with the pregnancy. Can anyone justify this sort of wanton disregard for the rights of women to be fully informed about their own health and bodies, not to mention this callousness about a fully-grown, adult woman's right to life, all in the name of protecting the potential lives of foetuses that may, or may not be aborted, by natural or medical means?
While the bill in Arizona is posited as protection from malpractice suits for doctors who are alleged to have witheld information about disabilities and birth defects, there are no protections built in that would insist that doctors inform women whose own life is at risk if they continue with the pregnancy. Can anyone justify this sort of wanton disregard for the rights of women to be fully informed about their own health and bodies, not to mention this callousness about a fully-grown, adult woman's right to life, all in the name of protecting the potential lives of foetuses that may, or may not be aborted, by natural or medical means?
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Can anyone justify this sort of wanton disregard for the rights of women to be fully informed about their own health and bodies, not to mention this callousness about a fully-grown, adult woman's right to life, all in the name of protecting the potential lives of foetuses that may, or may not be aborted, by natural or medical means?
I dunno--ask these guys.
Or this guy:
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Only the almighty fetus matters. Born people don't count. If God wants the woman to live through an ectopic pregnancy (not that anyone ever has or any ectopic baby has ever been born) then He will allow it. Otherwise it must be His will that she dies. Too bad, hopefully she either has insurance or dies quickly.
I swear the GOP has gone so far to the right that they have toppled over.0 -
Only the almighty fetus matters. Born people don't count. If God wants the woman to live through an ectopic pregnancy (not that anyone ever has or any ectopic baby has ever been born) then He will allow it. Otherwise it must be His will that she dies. Too bad, hopefully she either has insurance or dies quickly.
I swear the GOP has gone so far to the right that they have toppled over.
Right. Glad I don't live in AZ.0 -
Only the almighty fetus matters. Born people don't count. If God wants the woman to live through an ectopic pregnancy (not that anyone ever has or any ectopic baby has ever been born) then He will allow it. Otherwise it must be His will that she dies. Too bad, hopefully she either has insurance or dies quickly.
I swear the GOP has gone so far to the right that they have toppled over.
who hit rewind on the separation of church and state? lol0 -
Come to the UK - it's a land where women are treated as sentient beings with a right to determine their own fate. Including not dying in screaming agony because their ectopic pregnancy has ruptured and they're bleeding out.
Bet ya never thought the UK would become the Land of the Free, did you?0 -
It's disgusting!
For the record, I don't think it's ok for a doctor to ever lie to a patient, or withhold information...EVER! It's not their life or right to deny that to the person whose life and family are what it's all about.0 -
I live in Phoenix and this bill just kills me. What the hell happened to the Hippocratic oath and since when does the government get to throw it out the window. I want to have kids and I love living in Phoenix, but this seriously scares the hell out of me and gives me nightmares about going through a pregnancy here. Not that I don't trust my OB (thankfully). This is beyond ridiculous. I read a quote the other day on facebook that seems appropriate here. It said something to the effect of "for pro-lifers, life begins at conception and ends at birth."0
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What the hell happened to the Hippocratic oath and since when does the government get to throw it out the window.
Exactly. "First, do no harm" seems to have been overridden entirely in these states. Makes you wonder what else they might like to conveniently forget or override.
The whole scenario seems utterly bizarre to me, sitting in the UK, where the politics of abortion rarely throws up even a blip on the national radar, but very, very alarming. After all, where the US leads, the rest of us often follow.
In the UK, I'm fairly solidly Conservative, fiscally at the very least, but as an interested follower of US Politics, the GOP seem to have lost the plot entirely! Why on earth they're focusing on social issues and interfering where they've no mandate, expertise or right to do so, instead of focusing on the economic issues at stake is beyond me.0 -
Because they're the ones who screwed up the economy in the first place and their primary policy now of "Tax the rich less and there will be more for everyone" is such a blatant lie and so obviously false that all but the most blind followers know it. They can't pass that off to the general public - especially not in an election year - and expect to have any chance at all of winning. So instead they are pandering to their radical right crowd (which is stupid - those people would vote for them even if Jesus Himself was running as a Democrat) and playing "look at the monkey" when it comes to jobs and the economy.What the hell happened to the Hippocratic oath and since when does the government get to throw it out the window.
Exactly. "First, do no harm" seems to have been overridden entirely in these states. Makes you wonder what else they might like to conveniently forget or override.
The whole scenario seems utterly bizarre to me, sitting in the UK, where the politics of abortion rarely throws up even a blip on the national radar, but very, very alarming. After all, where the US leads, the rest of us often follow.
In the UK, I'm fairly solidly Conservative, fiscally at the very least, but as an interested follower of US Politics, the GOP seem to have lost the plot entirely! Why on earth they're focusing on social issues and interfering where they've no mandate, expertise or right to do so, instead of focusing on the economic issues at stake is beyond me.
I wouldn't worry too much about Europe following us though. I lived in Germany for 1 1 /2 years and the only feeling I ever got about American politics there was that we were freaking crazy and moving backwards in time rather than forward. And mind you, I left there in Oct 2010, that was before the GOP went so far right that they toppled over and made their platform "All fetus, all the time". They are so incredibly out of touch it would be funny if there weren't so many who actually liked people like Santorum. My only thought with him winning so much is maybe they are trying to get the GOP to put up someone completely new by having someone like him be their front runner. There's no way in heck he can beat Obama. GOP - where life begins at conception and ends at birth. Completely wackadoodle. Europe would have to go back to the Middle Ages to come close to where we are. Damn shame how the inmates have taken over the asylum here.0 -
Ha! I think there are a few European politicians who'd love to go back to the days of feudalism (Berlusconi seems like he'd enjoy the droit du seigneur!). I was thinking more along the lines of popular culture than politics, to be honest, but the latter does quite often influence the former, though it takes while to filter through, generally speaking.
The GOP does seem to have gone off the rails in a big way, and I'll be interested to see how the rest of the primaries play out. There was a really interesting article in one of the Sunday papers here a few weeks ago about the GOP selection process, and what could happen if Santorum won the race. Jed Bush was proposed as a potential alternative, which made me howl with laughter at first, until I thought about it a little, and realised he was probably a more palatable candidate, which is an indictment of where things are at, if you ask me. The GOP - not so much Right as horizontal (helps with conception, I guess
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what could happen if Santorum won the race.
Landslide for Obama.
Then again never doubt the Democrats ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
According to the Republicans, women are too stupid and weak minded to know what is best for themselves.
To anyone who doesn't think it's a war on women and a way to keep them pregnant and subservient to men look at the current 'war on contraception' In a way it's funny, because they are SO STUPID they don't even know what birth control does. But they're trying to take away women's rights.0 -
While I have my own opinions, I will say that I think it's shameful to keep people from being prepared. We'd decided early on in my pregnancy that no matter what the outcome of the tests we wanted to have them all, not to make a decision on abortion, but to make preparations for our lives. I think it's everyone's right to know what's going on with their bodies.0
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While I have my own opinions, I will say that I think it's shameful to keep people from being prepared. We'd decided early on in my pregnancy that no matter what the outcome of the tests we wanted to have them all, not to make a decision on abortion, but to make preparations for our lives. I think it's everyone's right to know what's going on with their bodies.
Exactly! Regardless of one's opinion on abortion, if you find out that the child is going to have a disorder you need to be able to prepare for that. If you don't have the information, you can't prepare mentally, emotionally, or physically. Not only is that a disservice to the parents but also to the child itself.0 -
While I have my own opinions, I will say that I think it's shameful to keep people from being prepared. We'd decided early on in my pregnancy that no matter what the outcome of the tests we wanted to have them all, not to make a decision on abortion, but to make preparations for our lives. I think it's everyone's right to know what's going on with their bodies.
Exactly! Regardless of one's opinion on abortion, if you find out that the child is going to have a disorder you need to be able to prepare for that. If you don't have the information, you can't prepare mentally, emotionally, or physically. Not only is that a disservice to the parents but also to the child itself.
Hear hear! Quite apart from the profound unethicalness of any doctor or other medical professional witholding information about their own bodies and medical condition from women.0 -
So I was telling a friend about this bill this morning and she flat out refuses to believe this is true because I haven't read the bill in it's entirety. I just haven't had the time to sit down and read the whole thing. So, I'm curious. Has anyone here actually read the entire bill or are you goig off of the news articles? If you did read it, do you still have the link?0
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It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.0
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So I was telling a friend about this bill this morning and she flat out refuses to believe this is true because I haven't read the bill in it's entirety. I just haven't had the time to sit down and read the whole thing. So, I'm curious. Has anyone here actually read the entire bill or are you goig off of the news articles? If you did read it, do you still have the link?
Will find it for you tomorrow morning, my time, and post it/DM it for you. Must run now - should have left 10 mins ago!0 -
It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.
Sadly, a lot of the people pushing to make abortion illegal, or hard to get, think that if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion that "it is her own fault and she deserved it for killing an innocent life." :frown: It's really disturbing the way some people think.0 -
It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.
Sadly, a lot of the people pushing to make abortion illegal, or hard to get, think that if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion that "it is her own fault and she deserved it for killing an innocent life." :frown: It's really disturbing the way some people think.
I would say if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion, it IS her own fault. Not because she deserved it for trying to take a life but because she was dumb enough to have an unsafe procedure done. If someone stuck a dirty needle in their arm because they couldn't get a sterile one, wouldn't you say the same thing? They shouldn't have done it and it is no one's fault but their own..0 -
The difference is that the GOP is PUSHING to make abortions so hard to get that for some women they don't feel they have any alternative. It would be like making it so that only 5 hospitals in any state are regulated then blaming someone if they die because they went to the only hospital they could get to because the regulated ones are all hundreds of miles away and charge for all sorts of tests and procedures that aren't necessary. You can't take away the access to a safe procedure then blame the victim for having an unsafe procedure. Well you CAN, but you'd be a bit of a heartless @$$ if you did.It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.
Sadly, a lot of the people pushing to make abortion illegal, or hard to get, think that if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion that "it is her own fault and she deserved it for killing an innocent life." :frown: It's really disturbing the way some people think.
I would say if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion, it IS her own fault. Not because she deserved it for trying to take a life but because she was dumb enough to have an unsafe procedure done. If someone stuck a dirty needle in their arm because they couldn't get a sterile one, wouldn't you say the same thing? They shouldn't have done it and it is no one's fault but their own..0 -
The procedure may be safe for the woman but not safe for the life being taken. I won't get into my opinion on abortion. Most people here know I am pro-life for non-religious reasons. But because my opinion differs, I don't think that would make me a heartless *kitten*. I am far from heartless.
The difference is that the GOP is PUSHING to make abortions so hard to get that for some women they don't feel they have any alternative. It would be like making it so that only 5 hospitals in any state are regulated then blaming someone if they die because they went to the only hospital they could get to because the regulated ones are all hundreds of miles away and charge for all sorts of tests and procedures that aren't necessary. You can't take away the access to a safe procedure then blame the victim for having an unsafe procedure. Well you CAN, but you'd be a bit of a heartless @$$ if you did.It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.
Sadly, a lot of the people pushing to make abortion illegal, or hard to get, think that if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion that "it is her own fault and she deserved it for killing an innocent life." :frown: It's really disturbing the way some people think.
I would say if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion, it IS her own fault. Not because she deserved it for trying to take a life but because she was dumb enough to have an unsafe procedure done. If someone stuck a dirty needle in their arm because they couldn't get a sterile one, wouldn't you say the same thing? They shouldn't have done it and it is no one's fault but their own..
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So I was telling a friend about this bill this morning and she flat out refuses to believe this is true because I haven't read the bill in it's entirety. I just haven't had the time to sit down and read the whole thing. So, I'm curious. Has anyone here actually read the entire bill or are you goig off of the news articles? If you did read it, do you still have the link?
Will find it for you tomorrow morning, my time, and post it/DM it for you. Must run now - should have left 10 mins ago!
Really, really sorry - RL is mad today and I haven't had time to find the links. Tomorrow, I promise!0 -
The procedure may be safe for the woman but not safe for the life being taken. I won't get into my opinion on abortion. Most people here know I am pro-life for non-religious reasons. But because my opinion differs, I don't think that would make me a heartless *kitten*. I am far from heartless.
The difference is that the GOP is PUSHING to make abortions so hard to get that for some women they don't feel they have any alternative. It would be like making it so that only 5 hospitals in any state are regulated then blaming someone if they die because they went to the only hospital they could get to because the regulated ones are all hundreds of miles away and charge for all sorts of tests and procedures that aren't necessary. You can't take away the access to a safe procedure then blame the victim for having an unsafe procedure. Well you CAN, but you'd be a bit of a heartless @$$ if you did.It's weird because I believe the DC area is looking at making women have mandatory ultrasounds (was going to be invasive but they changed it) even if they already decided to get an abortion, so they can have as much info necessary (to try to change their minds) to make their decision, so they want to give a women who knows she wants an abortion expensive unnecessary medical testing so she can confirm what she already decided. Isn't it just funny how different areas are trying everything possible even totally opposite crap to get the same outcome. They need to leave it, bottom line if women can't get abortions they will do it anyway with back alley ones and they will get hurt and die just like before when they couldn't get abortions. We have already been through this, give them a safe place to have a friggin abortion, we already know what the consequences of it being illegal are.
Sadly, a lot of the people pushing to make abortion illegal, or hard to get, think that if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion that "it is her own fault and she deserved it for killing an innocent life." :frown: It's really disturbing the way some people think.
I would say if a woman is hurt or killed by an unsafe abortion, it IS her own fault. Not because she deserved it for trying to take a life but because she was dumb enough to have an unsafe procedure done. If someone stuck a dirty needle in their arm because they couldn't get a sterile one, wouldn't you say the same thing? They shouldn't have done it and it is no one's fault but their own..
An unsafe procedure endangers two lives instead of one. Seems like a good reason to have safe, legal procedures to me.0 -
Well, most of us know that there was a time when abortions were illegal, and women chose to have 'back alley' abortions, etc. BUT, we're going a bit off topic....
An unsafe procedure endangers two lives instead of one. Seems like a good reason to have safe, legal procedures to me.
SHOULD A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITHHOLD INFORMATION FROM THE PATIENT?
Believe it or not, this happens all the time. Families requesting that patients are not told about things like cancer, or other diseases that may ultimately cause their demise.... and there are doctors that follow/honor these requests.
Personally, I believe that if you are of sound mind, you have the right to know anything that the doctor knows AND UNDERSTAND what that means. (Unfortunately, some doctors do a piss poor job at explaining). Withholding of information should be up there with malpractice. Let the patient decide ultimate outcomes fully knowing all their choices.0 -
Unless the "family member" has medical power of attorney the doctor cannot tell them anything without the patient's permission. HIPPA laws prohibit it.
Well, most of us know that there was a time when abortions were illegal, and women chose to have 'back alley' abortions, etc. BUT, we're going a bit off topic....
An unsafe procedure endangers two lives instead of one. Seems like a good reason to have safe, legal procedures to me.
SHOULD A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITHHOLD INFORMATION FROM THE PATIENT?
Believe it or not, this happens all the time. Families requesting that patients are not told about things like cancer, or other diseases that may ultimately cause their demise.... and there are doctors that follow/honor these requests.
Personally, I believe that if you are of sound mind, you have the right to know anything that the doctor knows AND UNDERSTAND what that means. (Unfortunately, some doctors do a piss poor job at explaining). Withholding of information should be up there with malpractice. Let the patient decide ultimate outcomes fully knowing all their choices.0 -
BUT, we're going a bit off topic....
Sorry.. Didn't mean for my comment to hijack the thread. :blushing:0 -
Aargh! Didn't mean to abandon this thread. having manic week. Hopefully time tomorrow to comment/provide links. sorry!0
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The Hippocratic Oath (or least a variant of it);swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, be respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
How would the doctor be justified in lying to a patient? --presuming the patient is of sound mind and is capable of making their own medical decisions.0 -
While I have my own opinions, I will say that I think it's shameful to keep people from being prepared. We'd decided early on in my pregnancy that no matter what the outcome of the tests we wanted to have them all, not to make a decision on abortion, but to make preparations for our lives. I think it's everyone's right to know what's going on with their bodies.
Exactly! Regardless of one's opinion on abortion, if you find out that the child is going to have a disorder you need to be able to prepare for that. If you don't have the information, you can't prepare mentally, emotionally, or physically. Not only is that a disservice to the parents but also to the child itself.
Not even to mention financially. My boyfriend has MD and there are so many things that he needs that are extra or have to be modified just so he can live happily. And, if the public school in the area was built before the 90's, they don't have to adhere to the ADA until they do remodeling, in which case, you might even have to move to a more accessible school.
And, regardless of your opinion on abortion, the fact of the matter is, they happen. Legal or not, they happen. It's just that people who get them illegally are risking their lives by doing it, and by having the child, they may be risking the child's life. This is one of the topics, along with gay marriage, that I think shouldn't even be a public issue. It's a private decision, so leave it out of public arenas.0 -
The Hippocratic Oath (or least a variant of it);swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, be respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
How would the doctor be justified in lying to a patient? --presuming the patient is of sound mind and is capable of making their own medical decisions.
"therapeutic nihilism" never sounds good when it's being recited by a group.0
This discussion has been closed.