Boys and Piercings
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I can't deny it's not a double standard, but I don't believe you really don't see why someone would allow their daughter and not their son.If my son wants to have his ears pierced, I will let him when he is old enough to ask. I don't see any reason whatsoever, why it should be ok for a daughter to get ears pierced and not a son, other than a terrible double standard.
Like I said, whether we like it or not, our appearances do matter. I don't "look down" on someone because they have piercings or tattoos nor do I think less of that person as a human being. I don't see how you're just denying the fact that we all judge people on their looks. "Judging" doesn't necessarily mean looking down on them or thinking they're a horrible person. It means drawing a conclusion, right or wrong, about a person based on how they dress and look.I don't see juding someone for having body modification any differently than juding someone for having certain brands of clothing or a certain skin color. If you think less of or look down on someone becase they have piercings or tattoos, shame on you.0 -
Ok, this is a very special subject to me as the love of my life has 7 piercings, INCLUDING his ears gauged to 1 5/8inches and dozens of hours of tattoo work. I myself have 5 piercings and 7 hours worth of ink.
If my son wants to have his ears pierced, I will let him when he is old enough to ask. I don't see any reason whatsoever, why it should be ok for a daughter to get ears pierced and not a son, other than a terrible double standard.
It makes me sick the way people look at my boyfriend in public. He doesn't care, but it enrages me. He is a wonderful man, a wonderful father to my son (even though he doesn't have to be, he's not his biological father), a great student going to Purdue for business and marketing degrees and a great employee. He is a model person in everyway, yet people treat him like a criminal because he has big ears, and a ring in his lip and eyebrow. He goes out of his way to help people, hold doors, and exhibits kindness and manners some people think died off back in the 50's. He would stop his car to help an old lady across the street, I don't know too many people who would take the time or effort to do that. There are some people who give him a chance and respect him once they see who he is.. People look at his with disgust because they are too shallow to see him for what he is inside!
I don't see juding someone for having body modification any differently than juding someone for having certain brands of clothing or a certain skin color. If you think less of or look down on someone becase they have piercings or tattoos, shame on you.
This is true and your mindset is of the newer generation and eventually more and more people will be of this mindset. However for the time being and unfortunately for people with tattoos and piercings a lot of the people in management positions and hiring positions are older and are of the older generations where this didn't fly and wasn't considered professional. So as much as it sucks it's the world we live in........for now. Everything moves and dies off eventually and this most likely will too but it will take some time, It's already starting to change. Just like integration of blacks and whites, and the mindsets that had to die off there and we still aren't even completely there yet, you still have those old people set in there ways, but their numbers are coming. Until then I want my kid to have as many opportunities as possible ESCPECIALLY in this economy where jobs are becoming more cut throat to get, especially the medical field, where tattoos and piercings must be taken out or covered up at the least. So in the end you can do whatever you want but you can't control what someone else thinks in their head and that's a chance you'll take when going out into the world and trying to get a job. It's not fair but when has life ever been. But hey someones gotta round the bases right.0 -
Like I said, whether we like it or not, our appearances do matter. I don't "look down" on someone because they have piercings or tattoos nor do I think less of that person as a human being. I don't see how you're just denying the fact that we all judge people on their looks. "Judging" doesn't necessarily mean looking down on them or thinking they're a horrible person. It means drawing a conclusion, right or wrong, about a person based on how they dress and look.I don't see juding someone for having body modification any differently than juding someone for having certain brands of clothing or a certain skin color. If you think less of or look down on someone becase they have piercings or tattoos, shame on you.
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This. People look at other people and draw conclusions based on appearance, right or wrong, all day, every day. At base, that's why most of us are here - we're tired of being judged as lesser beings for our physical weight/appearance and consequently perhaps being treated less well than others of more slender physique. How someone presents themselves to the world has an enormous effect on how others perceive them, for better or worse. The girl who turns up in a twinset and pearls is going to be judged to be just as out of place in some situations as the man with piercings and tattoos will be in others - that's human nature, and part of how we act, as a species, socially.0 -
This. People look at other people and draw conclusions based on appearance, right or wrong, all day, every day. At base, that's why most of us are here - we're tired of being judged as lesser beings for our physical weight/appearance and consequently perhaps being treated less well than others of more slender physique. How someone presents themselves to the world has an enormous effect on how others perceive them, for better or worse. The girl who turns up in a twinset and pearls is going to be judged to be just as out of place in some situations as the man with piercings and tattoos will be in others - that's human nature, and part of how we act, as a species, socially.
That leads me to discrimination then. Not only are people judged by their body modifications but employers are allowed to deny or even in my boyfriends case, terminate employment for piercings or tattoos. It guess it's their loss in the end though, when they terminate or decline an application of a person and hire a less qualified or less competent person, just because they look more "common".
Edited to add:
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Ok, this is a very special subject to me as the love of my life has 7 piercings, INCLUDING his ears gauged to 1 5/8inches and dozens of hours of tattoo work. I myself have 5 piercings and 7 hours worth of ink.
If my son wants to have his ears pierced, I will let him when he is old enough to ask. I don't see any reason whatsoever, why it should be ok for a daughter to get ears pierced and not a son, other than a terrible double standard.
It makes me sick the way people look at my boyfriend in public. He doesn't care, but it enrages me. He is a wonderful man, a wonderful father to my son (even though he doesn't have to be, he's not his biological father), a great student going to Purdue for business and marketing degrees and a great employee. He is a model person in everyway, yet people treat him like a criminal because he has big ears, and a ring in his lip and eyebrow. He goes out of his way to help people, hold doors, and exhibits kindness and manners some people think died off back in the 50's. He would stop his car to help an old lady across the street, I don't know too many people who would take the time or effort to do that. There are some people who give him a chance and respect him once they see who he is.. People look at his with disgust because they are too shallow to see him for what he is inside!
I don't see juding someone for having body modification any differently than juding someone for having certain brands of clothing or a certain skin color. If you think less of or look down on someone becase they have piercings or tattoos, shame on you.
I couldn't agree more. I work for the largest bank in the nation and we encourage diversity. I know people that work here who had tattoo's (I know at least 1 person who has full sleeves), piercings, and dyed hair. We are evaluated based upon our work not what we look like. Do we have rules? Sure. Most companies do and we do have a dress code that we have to follow but no one is discriminated against because of lifestyle choices they make. Discrimination is wrong and I don't think I need to list the reasons why. The fact that we perpetuate discrimination with our children bothers me greatly. I understand that this is only my opinion and everyone has the right to raise their children how they see fit, I don't condone teaching our children discrimination instead of encouraging acceptance. How do you say to your child "It's okay for your friend Jimmy to get his ear pierced or to dye his hair and you have to accept him but it's not okay for you to do it because others won't accept you?" It's just teaching a double standard.0 -
I've seen this so many times. I would never have looked at him in the first pic and thought, "delinquent". Other than the sleeves, he looks pretty clean cut.0 -
OK so I have a big time opinion on this one.....
I grew up rock/punk and hung out with nothing but other rockers and punk kids. I had 3 peircing in either ear and have 4 tattoos...
I also went to nursing school at the same time as high school, had nothing but A's and B's and have an I.Q. that is high enough not polite to mention in company.(though I also have a mild from of dyslexia and cant spell sorry) .....
My friends were guaged out, tattooed and some of the most loyal individuals ever.... I have been a nurse for 12 years and 90% of my friends from then are still friends now....
Peircing the ears on a child is your choice but remember clothing styles, hair styles and body modifications are not judged the way they used to be.... For god sakes my CEO is 50 and has an earing and a tatto..... My administrator just asked me where she can get more ink and she has a tramp stamp lol.....
If it were my child I would let him peirce his ears .... so would his dad BTW who works at a nucler power plant and has multiple tattoos, a motorcycle and guaged ears...... The only restriciton I would have would be on guaging his ears... He would have to wait til he is 18 for that... same with tattoo's..... Tell him to give you a few months to think about it and maybe get used to the idea and then hell probably forget about it before the time is up... or give him a specific age range ... "if you still want it when your 15 then you can do it "0 -
I use this one to talk my students into different placement for their proposed tattoos all the time. They often come to me for an idea for a new tattoo that would be so cool (on their neck/hand/face/ankle). I try to lobby hard for a location that can be concealed with a t-shirt. My students do not need any more challenges standing in the way of their employment.0 -
Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination. Don't confuse "good judgment" for "judgment", either. We can make safe, good judgments all the time. The way a person dresses, for example, can tell us if they're punk, thug, goth, preppy, gang-banger, surfer, etc. The way a person dresses himself DOES say something about him. I consider pierced ears and tattoos as a form of dressing oneself. I'm not saying anyone is better than the other, but I can certainly make my children dress a certain way while they're minors living in my home.IThe fact that we perpetuate discrimination with our children bothers me greatly. I understand that this is only my opinion and everyone has the right to raise their children how they see fit, I don't condone teaching our children discrimination instead of encouraging acceptance. How do you say to your child "It's okay for your friend Jimmy to get his ear pierced or to dye his hair and you have to accept him but it's not okay for you to do it because others won't accept you?" It's just teaching a double standard.0 -
I understand both points of view in this debate. No one here seems to be advocating discrimination in any form, and I myself would love to see a world that does not judge a book by it's cover....but we are not there. As far as job opportunities go, I could care less what some one looks or dresses like....but what is often the case is that older people are in charge of businesses and companies, so I think that mcpatti has a legitamate point about appearances limiting careere opportunities.
My father used to mercilessly make fun of my friends who had pierced ears because it looked "gay". That was his generations take on it. Now luckily my father was just teasing and was very good to my friends, but I can see the generational divide.
I would love to live in a world that looked passed appearances, but I don't think it is unwise to play a little defense with our children, because chances are, if my son turns out to be wonderful, respectful, diligent, hardworking man, he won't get that full ride to Harvard if he has a dragon tattooed onto his face.0 -
I've seen this so many times. I would never have looked at him in the first pic and thought, "delinquent". Other than the sleeves, he looks pretty clean cut.
Agree... textbook straw man.0 -
I'd like to add that I kept work in mind with MY tattoos and my bf would be fine too. Mine are on my back and leg and he has a small one on one forearm, a full sleeve and a backpiece also. I went to a work conference in Kansas last year and the President of marketing wore a skirt and had a huge tattoo up her leg! I was so happy to see that considering I was worried about my little ankle piece with my skirts and dresses.
My boss doesn't mind either, she would never have one but she is liberal when it comes to appearance. I wear dresses or skirts on days we have board meetings and no one has ever said a single thing about them. In fact, the most prestigeous real estate company in Lafayette, hired a REALTOR with two full sleeve and leg pieces. Her husband owns a nice little shop downtown and supports our Chamber of Commerce.0 -
Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination.
Amen. I think some people here are comparing apples to oranges.0 -
I've seen this so many times. I would never have looked at him in the first pic and thought, "delinquent". Other than the sleeves, he looks pretty clean cut.
So you consider two full sleeves and a shaved head clean cut?0 -
Just as in the picture of the "delinquent" vs "doctor", it appears as though when he's at work he covers up his tattoos. He also wears a tie with a dress shirt. Why? Probably because he knows his appearance matters when in a certain position. I realize the point of the meme was to say, "don't judge someone based on tattoos", but it also makes a statement about time and place and when tattoos are okay to be seen and when they shouldn't be seen.I'd like to add that I kept work in mind with MY tattoos and my bf would be fine too. Mine are on my back and leg and he has a small one on one forearm, a full sleeve and a backpiece also.0 -
I've seen this so many times. I would never have looked at him in the first pic and thought, "delinquent". Other than the sleeves, he looks pretty clean cut.
I said, "Other than the sleeves".So you consider two full sleeves and a shaved head clean cut?0 -
Discrimination? Sure it is. Other than those who stretch ears because of the fad of the early 2000's, many who do it seriously, do it for the cultural meaning. The modern primitave movement.Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination.
Amen. I think some people here are comparing apples to oranges.
Also, Tutankhamen, Budda, tribes all over the world have been commonly modifying their bodies since the human race exhisted.
Much like many othe aspects of American standards, anything that isn't 'typical American' is frowned upon or taboo... Non-Christian religious, nudity, different languages. I feel while we welcome many races to our country, socially, we are far from diverse.0 -
Are you serious????? Do you really think that 12 year old boy who wants his ear pierced is doing it for "cultural meaning"? Come on, now.Discrimination? Sure it is. Other than those who stretch ears because of the fad of the early 2000's, many who do it seriously, do it for the cultural meaning. The modern primitave movement.
Also, I did not say I personally discriminate based on pierced ears on men or tattoos on either sex. I've hired people with tattoos (ask quichebradford who is on here). However, as her manager, I was also required to have her cover it up during work hours or write her up. Just because I will not allow my sons to pierce their ears or get tattoos does not make me guilty of discrimination.0 -
Are you serious????? Do you really think that 12 year old boy who wants his ear pierced is doing it for "cultural meaning"? Come on, now.Discrimination? Sure it is. Other than those who stretch ears because of the fad of the early 2000's, many who do it seriously, do it for the cultural meaning. The modern primitave movement.
Also, I did not say I personally discriminate based on pierced ears on men or tattoos on either sex. I've hired people with tattoos (ask quichebradford who is on here). However, as her manager, I was also required to have her cover it up during work hours or write her up. Just because I will not allow my sons to pierce their ears or get tattoos does not make me guilty of discrimination.
Of course a 12 year old isn't doing it for cultural reasons.. He would fall under that "fad" group. I was just making a point as to HOW it can be discrimination..0 -
Foret ear gauges. As soon as some one figures out how to take those african neck thing that stretches them out and designs it for my peter, I'm on board.0
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Discrimination? Sure it is.Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination.
Amen. I think some people here are comparing apples to oranges.
Acknowledging racism is not, itself, racist. I think you are completely missing the point. She's educating her children about the realities of our society, not teaching them to discriminate against anyone.0 -
Discrimination? Sure it is.Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination.
Amen. I think some people here are comparing apples to oranges.
Acknowledging racism is not, itself, racist. I think you are completely missing the point. She's educating her children about the realities of our society, not teaching them to discriminate against anyone.
One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression. That's not to say all discrimination is bad in all cases. I think I would probably just tell the kid what the possible consequences are and let them decide on their own. There are limits to that, of course, that will vary by person I'm sure.
If a kid decided they're ok with the consequences of sticking their fingers in a pencil sharpener, I would intervene, but I think getting ears pierced must fall on a different place in the range of acceptable consequences for me than it does for other people.0 -
That was in regards to the apples and oranges comment. Not Macpatti's.
Discrimination? Sure it is.Teaching my children that their appearance matters is a far cry from perpetuating discrimination.
Amen. I think some people here are comparing apples to oranges.
Acknowledging racism is not, itself, racist. I think you are completely missing the point. She's educating her children about the realities of our society, not teaching them to discriminate against anyone.
The bf and I even discussed this on lunch. We agreed that we would allow a discreet tattoo in a hidable place in the teen years and piercings if they want but nothing that couldn't easily be fixed or hidden quickly for work. At least until people stop discriminating.
I still feel it's sad that people with body modifications have to hide them to be socially accepted.0 -
One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression.
I don't even know what this means. I assume you are using the definition of discriminate to mean, "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit." So she's teaching her children to make a negative distinction against themselves based on their own desire to put holes in their ears? :huh:I think I would probably just tell the kid what the possible consequences are and let them decide on their own.
At the risk of being accused of being Scottish again.... this is the kind of statement that sounds good when you're talking about parenting but it's much different when you're actually in the situation.
Teenagers are morons. There is science to back this up - the areas of their brains responsible for long-term risk assessment and judgment go to utter crap during this period. Sometimes it's just not as easy as explaining the consequences and letting them decide. Plus, trying to explain consequences of anything to a teenager is.... well.... a lot like trying to explain consequences to a 3 year old.0 -
Um, yeah. I'm definitely not one of those parents who is warm and fuzzy with my children's desire to express themselves when it comes to the way they dress, speak, read, watch, etc. They can express themselves in other ways. Want to play sports? Fine. Want to be in drama, choir, band, debate? Go for it. Want to be an artist? Take the class. Want to learn dance or martial arts? Let's go sign up. You want to cuss, dress like a thug, sag your pants, pierce your ears (boys), get a tattoo, color your hair pink, have a mowhak, smoke, drink alcohol, or watch porn to "express yourself"? You can do that when you're no longer in my house.One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression.0 -
One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression.
I don't even know what this means. I assume you are using the definition of discriminate to mean, "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit." So she's teaching her children to make a negative distinction against themselves based on their own desire to put holes in their ears? :huh:I think I would probably just tell the kid what the possible consequences are and let them decide on their own.
At the risk of being accused of being Scottish again.... this is the kind of statement that sounds good when you're talking about parenting but it's much different when you're actually in the situation.
Teenagers are morons. There is science to back this up - the areas of their brains responsible for long-term risk assessment and judgment go to utter crap during this period. Sometimes it's just not as easy as explaining the consequences and letting them decide. Plus, trying to explain consequences of anything to a teenager is.... well.... a lot like trying to explain consequences to a 3 year old.
Actually, the way the fallacy works, I was accusing you of not calling me Scottish, but there's not important. It's all well and good to say "You're not a parent you don't understand. " Except that I don't need be a parent. I had my own. I was a teenager. My suggested course of action worked for me. You could claim it wouldn't work for most people, but then that's gets more complicated in terms of statistics and ends up being just an issue of all kids are different...which sort of invalidates that attempt at discrediting my parenting ability on the basis of my lack of experience; experience doesn't really matter if kids are just different.
Onto your second point. As you can see, I noted there are areas where I would intervene and acknowledged that the areas I might intervene are obviously different than other people. And let's keep in mind, we're talking about 12 year olds here. If they're stuck with the critical thinking skills of a 3 year old, something may be wrong.0 -
Interesting topic considering my son wants a tattoo for his 18th birthday. I told him "no" and I have several tattoos, as does my husband.
The reason I told him no because he's interested in attending one of the military academies, something as minor as a tattoo could potentially disqualify him from being accepted. Btw, check their websites for confirmation. Who knows, maybe he'll want to apply after a year or two in college or military and why chance getting a tattoo when there's a real possiblity that you may want to get accepted into one of these academies?
Also, since he's interested in a career in the military and the rules are constantly changing regarding body modification (w/in the military), it flat wouldn't be a wise decision.
Personally I don't think anyone at the age of 18 should get a tattoo, what you think is "cool & hip" now you may regret in your 30s. Sure getting your entire back inked w/ the Starship Enterprise or the entire team of the Avengers may seem like an awesome idea when you're 19-20, but who knows, maybe when you hit 40 you may feel differently. LOL0 -
Um, yeah. I'm definitely not one of those parents who is warm and fuzzy with my children's desire to express themselves when it comes to the way they dress, speak, read, watch, etc. They can express themselves in other ways. Want to play sports? Fine. Want to be in drama, choir, band, debate? Go for it. Want to be an artist? Take the class. Want to learn dance or martial arts? Let's go sign up. You want to cuss, dress like a thug, sag your pants, pierce your ears (boys), get a tattoo, color your hair pink, have a mowhak, smoke, drink alcohol, or watch porn to "express yourself"? You can do that when you're no longer in my house.One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression.
I love that you're apparently choosing not to see any distinction between the effects of smoking or drinking for a 12 year old than say, getting an ear pierced. Fantastic.0 -
Um, yeah. I'm definitely not one of those parents who is warm and fuzzy with my children's desire to express themselves when it comes to the way they dress, speak, read, watch, etc. They can express themselves in other ways. Want to play sports? Fine. Want to be in drama, choir, band, debate? Go for it. Want to be an artist? Take the class. Want to learn dance or martial arts? Let's go sign up. You want to cuss, dress like a thug, sag your pants, pierce your ears (boys), get a tattoo, color your hair pink, have a mowhak, smoke, drink alcohol, or watch porn to "express yourself"? You can do that when you're no longer in my house.One could argue that she's teaching them to discriminate against themselves and their modes of self expression.
I love that you're apparently choosing not to see any distinction between the effects of smoking or drinking for a 12 year old than say, getting an ear pierced. Fantastic.
Ya gotta set boundaries them with kids or they'll run over the top of you, whether it be tats, piercings, smoking, drugs, clothing choices, etc.....
I have to agree w/ macpatti, there are certain things that I will NOT allow in my house, on my dime.
Once they're on their own, they can ink their entire body the color mauve for all I care, I'll love them just the same....but until that time, my household is NOT a democracy. They can give me their thoughts/opinions, but the bottom line is I'm the one w/ the last "say".0 -
Where did I say that? I'm saying in general, I am not the kind of parent who will let my children "express themselves" in ways I do not agree or deem approrpiate. I went on to give you other examples of that. You were a teenager. You know the lines teens use when wanting to do something their parents won't let them. They'll try using the "What about my self-expression" line or "It's my body" or "What about MY feelings". I am the parent. My job, as I see it, is to guide them when making decisions based on their limited world view that will affect them the rest of their lives. I would never want my adult child to say to me, "Why would you let me do that at that age"? I'd much rather hear, "You were so strict and wouldn't let me get my ears pierced".I love that you're apparently choosing not to see any distinction between the effects of smoking or drinking for a 12 year old than say, getting an ear pierced. Fantastic.0
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