Weights and a fighting sport

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I read a lot of hype on "heavy lifting" people go on about it like its something special. I have asked my current boxing instructor and a professional strong man, they both say that weight lifting is counter productive to our sport. Although light weights or even kettlebells is more productive to the sport. I was also told by my professional strong man friend that people who pump iron too much aren't as strong as they look its all glamor and not much else. What does every one think of this?
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  • bushidowoman
    bushidowoman Posts: 1,599 Member
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    I don't know what your instructor means by "too much" or what kind of weight lifting. I think it depends on what your goals are for lifting the weights. Maybe the guys who lift weights to sculpt their bodies into a certain look for shows would have more trouble moving in a fight? I dunno.
    From my own personal experience--adding strength training to my routine has improved my martial arts abilities. What I mean when I say "lifting heavy" is lifting weights heavy enough to push myself to my limits instead of sticking with a lighter weight that I could work with longer. I want to use weights heavy enough that I can only do about 8-10 reps in a set. If I can do 12 reps with a weight, it's time to increase my weight. Pushing myself to lift heavier has increased my strength over all and has added power to my techniques. Almost everyone who has been my uke in the past year has noticed and commented on it. "What have you been doing?!" :laugh:
    My art also emphasizes low stances, and strengthening my leg muscles has helped me to be able to move faster and stay balanced while staying low. We practice being able to take a fall, to fight from our backs or from a sitting or kneeling position, so strengthening my core has enabled me to move more quickly in these situations.

    So I guess in general, I would say that while trying to achieve a certain look might not profit much in a fight situation, improving strength can be very beneficial.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    I read a lot of hype on "heavy lifting" people go on about it like its something special. I have asked my current boxing instructor and a professional strong man, they both say that weight lifting is counter productive to our sport. Although light weights or even kettlebells is more productive to the sport. I was also told by my professional strong man friend that people who pump iron too much aren't as strong as they look its all glamor and not much else. What does every one think of this?

    You have to remember - there's a difference between power lifting and body building. Body builders go entirely for hypertrophy (building big muscles) and aesthetics, while power lifters and other types of lifters are going for strength, power, etc.

    I suppose there can be a point where your weight lifting starts to become counterproductive, but from what I've seen, that takes quite a bit, and perhaps something only the guys really need to worry about (as women can't really build muscles big enough for them to really interfere, unless they're on something), and even that would require a ton of time, effort, and energy (probably too much for most people to feasibly do while also seriously practicing a martial art). I think the more realistic issues are not getting enough rest, and not having enough time to do both.

    I'm with bushidomama on heavy lifting being helpful to my art (which, like hers, is a lot of grappling/ground work). It might be different for a more strike-heavy art, such as karate or tae kwon do, but for the arts that are more focused on grappling, throws, etc (Jujitus, Judo, Aikido), I don't see how it can do just about anything except help. For example, learning to deadlift has allowed me to body slam my opponent, because it taught me both lifting form and has built my strength.

    The biggest issue I've run into is overworking myself. A lot of beginning lifting programs assume that it's the only workout you're doing, or you're doing a little bit of light cardio. Heavy lifting 3x/week, plus 1-2hr of martial arts 2-3x/week on opposing days, was quite a bit too much and didn't offer enough rest in between. Make sure you focus your lifting routine to be a supplement/complement to your martial arts, and you should be fine in that regard.

    Second to that, I can see where doing bodyweight strength training would be a better complement to martial arts, since the bodyweight stuff lends itself better to martial arts moves (ie - doing handstand pushups can not only help you get the arm/shoulder strength for things like roundoffs, but will get you used to the position, so you don't fear the flips; pushups and burpees are almost identical to the motions required for some evasion/dodge tactics), meaning you can gain in both areas in the limited time a person usually has. "Traditional" weight lifting doesn't have as much crossover, requiring you to spend more time to get yourself to the same functional level than what's required with bodyweight stuff.
  • fatty_to_fitty
    fatty_to_fitty Posts: 544 Member
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    From experience of training with people who lift or take supplements with the sole purpose of getting bigger (maybe stronger too but I couldn't say) they did struggle with the agility and flexibility. In martial arts if your technique is poor you will suffer in competition.

    Lifting weights for strength and toning - I don't see how this can have a negative effect on our sport.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    I don't know what your instructor means by "too much" or what kind of weight lifting. I think it depends on what your goals are for lifting the weights. Maybe the guys who lift weights to sculpt their bodies into a certain look for shows would have more trouble moving in a fight? I dunno.
    From my own personal experience--adding strength training to my routine has improved my martial arts abilities. What I mean when I say "lifting heavy" is lifting weights heavy enough to push myself to my limits instead of sticking with a lighter weight that I could work with longer. I want to use weights heavy enough that I can only do about 8-10 reps in a set. If I can do 12 reps with a weight, it's time to increase my weight. Pushing myself to lift heavier has increased my strength over all and has added power to my techniques. Almost everyone who has been my uke in the past year has noticed and commented on it. "What have you been doing?!" :laugh:
    My art also emphasizes low stances, and strengthening my leg muscles has helped me to be able to move faster and stay balanced while staying low. We practice being able to take a fall, to fight from our backs or from a sitting or kneeling position, so strengthening my core has enabled me to move more quickly in these situations.

    So I guess in general, I would say that while trying to achieve a certain look might not profit much in a fight situation, improving strength can be very beneficial.

    What my instructor means by heavy weights is that he doesn't want me pumping iron and turning into some kind of Mr Universe. Both he and a strong man friend of mine told me getting really buff will make me slow when punching and I will get too heavy to move as fast. Don't get me wrong I do work out with weights, I mainly use Kettlebells, light weights (for my 100 punch sessions) and I use some weights to do my squats. When I do work out when Im not in the gym I do have kettlebell sessions and I jog a few miles.

    I realize your sport differs to mine, I dont have to learn to fall correctly if I fall I just have to fall and hope to the boxing gods I can get back up before the count of 10 is called.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    From experience of training with people who lift or take supplements with the sole purpose of getting bigger (maybe stronger too but I couldn't say) they did struggle with the agility and flexibility. In martial arts if your technique is poor you will suffer in competition.

    Lifting weights for strength and toning - I don't see how this can have a negative effect on our sport.

    That is what both my friend and my instructor was saying about heavy weight lifters. I have been rubbished on other forums when I tried to explain what I do for training they think that lifting heavy weights is the only thing that can make you strong and look well. To be honest I don't want to be slow when I'm in the boxing ring I want to be fast and strong at the same time. I have been prescribed a small dose of kettlebells and jogging. Im proof that learning a fighting sport is good for over all fitness I have lost 36lbs to date, although I only found MFP 4-5 week ago.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    I read a lot of hype on "heavy lifting" people go on about it like its something special. I have asked my current boxing instructor and a professional strong man, they both say that weight lifting is counter productive to our sport. Although light weights or even kettlebells is more productive to the sport. I was also told by my professional strong man friend that people who pump iron too much aren't as strong as they look its all glamor and not much else. What does every one think of this?

    You have to remember - there's a difference between power lifting and body building. Body builders go entirely for hypertrophy (building big muscles) and aesthetics, while power lifters and other types of lifters are going for strength, power, etc.

    I suppose there can be a point where your weight lifting starts to become counterproductive, but from what I've seen, that takes quite a bit, and perhaps something only the guys really need to worry about (as women can't really build muscles big enough for them to really interfere, unless they're on something), and even that would require a ton of time, effort, and energy (probably too much for most people to feasibly do while also seriously practicing a martial art). I think the more realistic issues are not getting enough rest, and not having enough time to do both.

    I'm with bushidomama on heavy lifting being helpful to my art (which, like hers, is a lot of grappling/ground work). It might be different for a more strike-heavy art, such as karate or tae kwon do, but for the arts that are more focused on grappling, throws, etc (Jujitus, Judo, Aikido), I don't see how it can do just about anything except help. For example, learning to deadlift has allowed me to body slam my opponent, because it taught me both lifting form and has built my strength.

    The biggest issue I've run into is overworking myself. A lot of beginning lifting programs assume that it's the only workout you're doing, or you're doing a little bit of light cardio. Heavy lifting 3x/week, plus 1-2hr of martial arts 2-3x/week on opposing days, was quite a bit too much and didn't offer enough rest in between. Make sure you focus your lifting routine to be a supplement/complement to your martial arts, and you should be fine in that regard.

    Second to that, I can see where doing bodyweight strength training would be a better complement to martial arts, since the bodyweight stuff lends itself better to martial arts moves (ie - doing handstand pushups can not only help you get the arm/shoulder strength for things like roundoffs, but will get you used to the position, so you don't fear the flips; pushups and burpees are almost identical to the motions required for some evasion/dodge tactics), meaning you can gain in both areas in the limited time a person usually has. "Traditional" weight lifting doesn't have as much crossover, requiring you to spend more time to get yourself to the same functional level than what's required with bodyweight stuff.

    I know body builders and strong men are totally different since thier goals have no real comparison to what I'm trying to achieve.

    I do a lot of bodyweight stregnth conditioning like pushups, sit ups, and other things also I supplement these things with time in the boxing gym (working with punch bags, sparring with a few of the men at the gym and other drills Im told to do)
  • wellbert
    wellbert Posts: 3,924 Member
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    Compound lifting directly improved my speed and power in Muay Thai. Just anecdotal, but, there you go.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    Compound lifting directly improved my speed and power in Muay Thai. Just anecdotal, but, there you go.

    But are you lifting weight to achieve a Mr Universe carpet smuggler look? Because people tell me that my boxing regime is rubbish and it doesn't help you loose weight like "lifting"
  • wellbert
    wellbert Posts: 3,924 Member
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    Compound lifting directly improved my speed and power in Muay Thai. Just anecdotal, but, there you go.

    But are you lifting weight to achieve a Mr Universe carpet smuggler look? Because people tell me that my boxing regime is rubbish and it doesn't help you loose weight like "lifting"

    I'm not sure what that means. In the end, I'd rather look like Manny Pacquiao than, say, Andy Bolton.
    One thing benefits another. Find the synergy, and each benefits the other.

    At some point, one has to take preference. Being a great martial artist and also squatting 800lbs regularly are probably mutually exclusive. But there's no reason you couldn't get to the point of squatting 1-2x bodyweight and still being amazing.

    Training both takes a real toll on the body too, though. Need lots of rest.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    Compound lifting directly improved my speed and power in Muay Thai. Just anecdotal, but, there you go.

    But are you lifting weight to achieve a Mr Universe carpet smuggler look? Because people tell me that my boxing regime is rubbish and it doesn't help you loose weight like "lifting"

    I'm not sure what that means. In the end, I'd rather look like Manny Pacquiao than, say, Andy Bolton.
    One thing benefits another. Find the synergy, and each benefits the other.

    At some point, one has to take preference. Being a great martial artist and also squatting 800lbs regularly are probably mutually exclusive. But there's no reason you couldn't get to the point of squatting 1-2x bodyweight and still being amazing.

    Training both takes a real toll on the body too, though. Need lots of rest.


    Manny has an amazing body and he moves gracefully also that is what I want to achieve. Yes one thing does have to take preference over the other, no point in doing both. I do know both activities are both hard an challenging I just get sick and tired of people rubbishing a fighting sport over weight lifting they don't understand the hours we all put in the gym the hard work of getting injured like concussions etc. To be honest I don't care of people want to lift weights I'm all for exercise, it just makes me sad to think that people are so narrow minded to think one is better than the other to achieve a goal we are all after.

    Rest is always important.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    I don't know what your instructor means by "too much" or what kind of weight lifting. I think it depends on what your goals are for lifting the weights. Maybe the guys who lift weights to sculpt their bodies into a certain look for shows would have more trouble moving in a fight? I dunno.
    From my own personal experience--adding strength training to my routine has improved my martial arts abilities. What I mean when I say "lifting heavy" is lifting weights heavy enough to push myself to my limits instead of sticking with a lighter weight that I could work with longer. I want to use weights heavy enough that I can only do about 8-10 reps in a set. If I can do 12 reps with a weight, it's time to increase my weight. Pushing myself to lift heavier has increased my strength over all and has added power to my techniques. Almost everyone who has been my uke in the past year has noticed and commented on it. "What have you been doing?!" :laugh:
    My art also emphasizes low stances, and strengthening my leg muscles has helped me to be able to move faster and stay balanced while staying low. We practice being able to take a fall, to fight from our backs or from a sitting or kneeling position, so strengthening my core has enabled me to move more quickly in these situations.

    So I guess in general, I would say that while trying to achieve a certain look might not profit much in a fight situation, improving strength can be very beneficial.

    What my instructor means by heavy weights is that he doesn't want me pumping iron and turning into some kind of Mr Universe. Both he and a strong man friend of mine told me getting really buff will make me slow when punching and I will get too heavy to move as fast. Don't get me wrong I do work out with weights, I mainly use Kettlebells, light weights (for my 100 punch sessions) and I use some weights to do my squats. When I do work out when Im not in the gym I do have kettlebell sessions and I jog a few miles.

    I realize your sport differs to mine, I dont have to learn to fall correctly if I fall I just have to fall and hope to the boxing gods I can get back up before the count of 10 is called.

    o.O ....You (and they) do know that it's not really possible for women to "turn into some kind of Mr Universe" without things like steroids (not to mention far more time and energy than what you likely have while also practicing boxing), right?
  • bagge72
    bagge72 Posts: 1,377 Member
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    I don't know what your instructor means by "too much" or what kind of weight lifting. I think it depends on what your goals are for lifting the weights. Maybe the guys who lift weights to sculpt their bodies into a certain look for shows would have more trouble moving in a fight? I dunno.
    From my own personal experience--adding strength training to my routine has improved my martial arts abilities. What I mean when I say "lifting heavy" is lifting weights heavy enough to push myself to my limits instead of sticking with a lighter weight that I could work with longer. I want to use weights heavy enough that I can only do about 8-10 reps in a set. If I can do 12 reps with a weight, it's time to increase my weight. Pushing myself to lift heavier has increased my strength over all and has added power to my techniques. Almost everyone who has been my uke in the past year has noticed and commented on it. "What have you been doing?!" :laugh:
    My art also emphasizes low stances, and strengthening my leg muscles has helped me to be able to move faster and stay balanced while staying low. We practice being able to take a fall, to fight from our backs or from a sitting or kneeling position, so strengthening my core has enabled me to move more quickly in these situations.

    So I guess in general, I would say that while trying to achieve a certain look might not profit much in a fight situation, improving strength can be very beneficial.

    What my instructor means by heavy weights is that he doesn't want me pumping iron and turning into some kind of Mr Universe. Both he and a strong man friend of mine told me getting really buff will make me slow when punching and I will get too heavy to move as fast. Don't get me wrong I do work out with weights, I mainly use Kettlebells, light weights (for my 100 punch sessions) and I use some weights to do my squats. When I do work out when Im not in the gym I do have kettlebell sessions and I jog a few miles.

    I realize your sport differs to mine, I dont have to learn to fall correctly if I fall I just have to fall and hope to the boxing gods I can get back up before the count of 10 is called.

    o.O ....You (and they) do know that it's not really possible for women to "turn into some kind of Mr Universe" without things like steroids (not to mention far more time and energy than what you likely have while also practicing boxing), right?

    I agree with this, and unless you are thinking about quiting boxing, and devoting your time to becoming a professional body builder, or olympic weight lifter, I don't know why they would even be telling you this. You will be perfectly fine lifting heavier weight to get into better shape, and will still be plenty fast, you just have to know what you are doing. I would really like to know what you were planning on doing that made them come to these conclusions.
  • mariaj1979
    mariaj1979 Posts: 31
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    I don't know what your instructor means by "too much" or what kind of weight lifting. I think it depends on what your goals are for lifting the weights. Maybe the guys who lift weights to sculpt their bodies into a certain look for shows would have more trouble moving in a fight? I dunno.
    From my own personal experience--adding strength training to my routine has improved my martial arts abilities. What I mean when I say "lifting heavy" is lifting weights heavy enough to push myself to my limits instead of sticking with a lighter weight that I could work with longer. I want to use weights heavy enough that I can only do about 8-10 reps in a set. If I can do 12 reps with a weight, it's time to increase my weight. Pushing myself to lift heavier has increased my strength over all and has added power to my techniques. Almost everyone who has been my uke in the past year has noticed and commented on it. "What have you been doing?!" :laugh:
    My art also emphasizes low stances, and strengthening my leg muscles has helped me to be able to move faster and stay balanced while staying low. We practice being able to take a fall, to fight from our backs or from a sitting or kneeling position, so strengthening my core has enabled me to move more quickly in these situations.

    So I guess in general, I would say that while trying to achieve a certain look might not profit much in a fight situation, improving strength can be very beneficial.

    What my instructor means by heavy weights is that he doesn't want me pumping iron and turning into some kind of Mr Universe. Both he and a strong man friend of mine told me getting really buff will make me slow when punching and I will get too heavy to move as fast. Don't get me wrong I do work out with weights, I mainly use Kettlebells, light weights (for my 100 punch sessions) and I use some weights to do my squats. When I do work out when Im not in the gym I do have kettlebell sessions and I jog a few miles.

    I realize your sport differs to mine, I dont have to learn to fall correctly if I fall I just have to fall and hope to the boxing gods I can get back up before the count of 10 is called.

    o.O ....You (and they) do know that it's not really possible for women to "turn into some kind of Mr Universe" without things like steroids (not to mention far more time and energy than what you likely have while also practicing boxing), right?

    I agree with this, and unless you are thinking about quiting boxing, and devoting your time to becoming a professional body builder, or olympic weight lifter, I don't know why they would even be telling you this. You will be perfectly fine lifting heavier weight to get into better shape, and will still be plenty fast, you just have to know what you are doing. I would really like to know what you were planning on doing that made them come to these conclusions.

    Boxing is my life and it will stay in my life even when Im an old granny. As for the lifting thing people always rubbish me and try to tell me that what I'm doing is totally wrong. It bothers me when they say stuff like that because I put in the work at the gym I get injured and I had to fight to get noticed at my gym to be a fighter instead of some overweight mother who is only taking up just for fitness.

    I was being flippant when I ade the comment about Mr Universe.
  • Victoria2448
    Victoria2448 Posts: 559 Member
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    I have always lifted weights and now I do basically P90X to keep me in shape. Since P90X builds muscle and explosive power, it has only made me a better martial artist. I am stronger,faster and have stamina that even the kids can't keep up with. I lift heavy and have built some good muscle mass....I am also super flexible. Th most flexible in all my school despite being one of the oldest. :smile:
  • gchutson
    gchutson Posts: 657
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    I read a lot of hype on "heavy lifting" people go on about it like its something special. I have asked my current boxing instructor and a professional strong man, they both say that weight lifting is counter productive to our sport. Although light weights or even kettlebells is more productive to the sport. I was also told by my professional strong man friend that people who pump iron too much aren't as strong as they look its all glamor and not much else. What does every one think of this?

    Though somewhat true, that statement is somewhat misguided. People who "bodybuild" tend to focus on "looking good" instead of "performing well at a particular sport."

    Muscle is a very dense tissue, and a lot of muscle is a lot of very dense tissue. And generally speaking, a lot of dense tissue slows you down. It's basic physics.

    With martial arts, speed is key. And despite all the "whining and crying" that I'm sure my post with evoke by meatheads with really hurt feelings, big meaty people are generally not as fast a limber and quick as smaller, less massive people.

    On a more fundamental basis, I promise you that "curling a dumbbell" is basically worthless when it comes to "not getting your *kitten* kicked."

    In fairness, "Tae Bo" and "Cardio Kickboxing" also fall into that category.

    I speak from experience, as I am a 24 year martial artist and combatives instructor who also happens to be a 6'3, 270 pound meathead.
  • gchutson
    gchutson Posts: 657
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    I have always lifted weights and now I do basically P90X to keep me in shape. Since P90X builds muscle and explosive power, it has only made me a better martial artist. I am stronger,faster and have stamina that even the kids can't keep up with. I lift heavy and have built some good muscle mass....I am also super flexible. Th most flexible in all my school despite being one of the oldest. :smile:

    ...And you look great and should be proud. However, people thinking that "P90X" or any other workout video is preparing them to fight, spar or defend themselves... is an excellent way to get themselves killed.
  • engodwin
    engodwin Posts: 516 Member
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    You NEED to weight train if you are in a "fighting sport" - yes NEED to!

    I think what they were referring to is building BULK muscle. You def do NOT need bulk. Bulk slows you down and makes you less successful in the "ring."

    So, I think they were trying to make a point that didn't come out right.

    Weight train for increased strength. (No more than 3 times a week.)
  • engodwin
    engodwin Posts: 516 Member
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    ...And you look great and should be proud. However, people thinking that "P90X" or any other workout video is preparing them to fight, spar or defend themselves... is an excellent way to get themselves killed.

    ^true *kitten*
  • Victoria2448
    Victoria2448 Posts: 559 Member
    Options
    I have always lifted weights and now I do basically P90X to keep me in shape. Since P90X builds muscle and explosive power, it has only made me a better martial artist. I am stronger,faster and have stamina that even the kids can't keep up with. I lift heavy and have built some good muscle mass....I am also super flexible. Th most flexible in all my school despite being one of the oldest. :smile:

    ...And you look great and should be proud. However, people thinking that "P90X" or any other workout video is preparing them to fight, spar or defend themselves... is an excellent way to get themselves killed.

    I don't know anyone who thinks that P90X or any other workout will teach them to defend themslves. P90X has made me (and several of my fellow students) a better martial artist by increasing my strength,speed,agility and flexibility. Looking good is a great benefit...no other program has defined me like this one. (PS> even bodybuilding) I look cut all the time, without a cutting diet...I like that!
  • fatty_to_fitty
    fatty_to_fitty Posts: 544 Member
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    people tell me that my boxing regime is rubbish and it doesn't help you loose weight like "lifting"

    MENTAL! Sorry but the cardio that goes into boxing will help you to lose weight.

    If you starve yourself and do high cardio it will affect your results and a lot of people are focused on high protein diets and developing muscle for a better body, at the moment it seems to be a trend. I do actually agree with the principles of this but I think you probably get a lot of broscience rather than hard facts when you try and talk about this on other forums.

    It's different for everyone, If you're skinny with little muscles then yeah working on them will increase your power, because duh you are stronger and fitter. BUT like you said if you keep going towards the body builder look you will be stiff it affects your performance so there is clearly a happy medium.

    Big biceps do not equal better punches.