harneska Member

The truth is I didn't agree with the person I was debating this with, but want more perspectives on it, and am trying to hold my opinion loosely enough to change my mind in the face of new info. If I came in here and said, hey guys, doesn't this seem wrong to you??? That would introduce a lot of bias. Instead, I'm trying…

I don't know where most of your questions came from or what we're even talking about any more. Very off track from the topic.

Not at all. Again, I'm debating whether we should consider something an "achievement" as a society that promotes unrealistic body image. Yes, idealized body images are not attainable by all, just like elite athletic performance or elite academic performance. But neither of those two things have anything to do with body…

What's my point? I was responding to your point, which seemed like it was that outcomes don't matter, because everybody has individual responsibility. My point is that outcomes do matter. If 80% of people hate their bodies because magazines airbrush supermodels, we should look at whether it makes sense to airbrush…

I haven't created any such paradigm. You all are taking this so personally. Forget about the individual. You can do whatever the F you want. This is a philosophical question about whether society is better or worse off from bodybuilding existing at all. Not banning, not taking away your rights or your Fing guns. The…

You're getting really worked up about this. You and another poster were making the point that individual responsibility trumps all else. Sexual abuse is an example of how not everything is as easy for some people as for others.

Virtue was your word, not mine. Yes, the point I'm exploring is whether you optimize for having a perfect-looking body, you cause more harm than if you optimize for having a functional body. Power lifters are not perpetuating any kind of aesthetic ideal. Action figures and movie stars do not look like power lifters. I'll…

That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or…

You're drawing false conclusions. Feeling inferior about how much you can squat is no different than feeling inferior about how well you can write, or how well you can speak, or how well you can play basketball. Feeling inferior because who you are and what you look like does not conform to societal ideals is not the same.

You're not hearing me at all and arguing against a straw man. I'm comparing powerlifting/strength training to bodybuilding. Unless you think anyone who doesn't bodybuild is "average." Neither the bodybuilder nor the powerlifter is average. Neither should feel bad about their body. The point I'm exploring is whether it is…

If only it were that easy... ha I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.

Fine, here's another one. These aren't hard to find. I'm more shocked than anything that people are questioning that body image issues are getting worse, not better.…

The only reason is that marathon running is functional -- you are training your body to do something. Bodybuilding is training your body to have a certain look. The look is the purpose, not the byproduct. Not saying I agree with that, but that's the distinction.

Your perspective ignores the rising incidence of eating disorders worldwide and the rising incidence of body image dissatisfaction. https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/blog/eating-disorders-world-overview https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results

Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.

Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.

It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.

Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge…

It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question. In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact…

Supermodels certainly contribute to society's idea of ideal body image and many might argue that we'd be better off without that profession. I don't see how actors fit the analogy -- they are doing/creating something, like a writer or baker, not perpetuating an ideal. Plastic surgery -- idk, that's a topic I know nothing…

Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.

You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.

Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media…