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Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
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harneska
Posts: 25 Member
in Debate Club
I was having a debate with someone about body positivity and body acceptance, and the topic of bodybuilding came up. My personal view of body positivity (evolving over time as I learn more):
Feel free to comment on my baseline understanding as I an open to learning and evolving my perspective on this, but here's my real question:
My debate partner's argument was that because in bodybuilding, one strives for form over function, it is inherently unhealthy -- if not for the individual (who casual bodybuilding might still be a net gain for health-wise, especially if done in a body-positive way), then for society, because emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles. That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding.
I'm not sure what to think about this and couldn't find anything online written about this exact angle. I'm curious what this community thinks. If I, as an individual, want to go to the gym to specifically build muscle for aesthetic reasons, is that a bad thing for society? I especially want to hear from those who are well-versed in the body-positivity world or have struggled with body positivity themselves.
- This is a movement rooted in empathy for others and compassion for one's self
- Because of idealized body images promoted by the media, this has resulted in mistreatment/shaming of people who don't fit that ideal, as well as negative self-feelings and low self-esteem.
- There's work to be done societally, and individually, to undo this form of "othering" and discrimination that hurts so many people (fat, trans, skinny, etc).
- There's nothing wrong with wanting to change your body, lose weight, build muscle, etc. But ideally you start from a place of self love, and aren't creating a condition under which you can only love yourself if you achieve X outcome, or worse, you don't think other people should love you until you achieve X outcome.
- People have very mixed views on the "healthy at any weight" movement -- there are aspects of this that are problematic, though the idea comes from a good place.
Feel free to comment on my baseline understanding as I an open to learning and evolving my perspective on this, but here's my real question:
- Is bodybuilding inherently bad for society?
- To be specific, let's set aside the extremes -- the competitive bodybuilders and ones who use steroids and may experience muscle dysmorphia.
- Instead, when I say "bodybuilding" I'm referring to the other 99% who are simply following a diet plan and exercise plan with the intent of building muscle, mostly for aesthetic reasons, not functional.
- The key difference is form over function.
My debate partner's argument was that because in bodybuilding, one strives for form over function, it is inherently unhealthy -- if not for the individual (who casual bodybuilding might still be a net gain for health-wise, especially if done in a body-positive way), then for society, because emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles. That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding.
I'm not sure what to think about this and couldn't find anything online written about this exact angle. I'm curious what this community thinks. If I, as an individual, want to go to the gym to specifically build muscle for aesthetic reasons, is that a bad thing for society? I especially want to hear from those who are well-versed in the body-positivity world or have struggled with body positivity themselves.
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If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?59
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Health-wise, I'm not sure that carrying too much muscle weight is that better for the body as carrying too much fat, frankly. But people can do whatever they want. The problem is when people start making comments about how super muscular types look 'better' than rounded ones IMO (which I've seen here oh so many times, and good luck to you if you don't agree with them). They have their own idea about what looks better and start promoting it... that's the problem.
Again, what people are doing is none of anyone's business. People promoting their own opinions of what looks better as truth is the problem.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?
Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers. People are not taught from a young age that their self-worth is tied to their ability to write like Hemingway or Homer.
In the same way, I'd leave powerlifting out of this conversation -- because that's about function -- how much you can lift.8 -
Health-wise, I'm not sure that carrying too much muscle weight is that better for the body as carrying too much fat, frankly. But people can do whatever they want. The problem is when people start making comments about how super muscular types look 'better' than rounded ones IMO (which I've seen here oh so many times, and good luck to you if you don't agree with them). They have their own idea about what looks better and start promoting it... that's the problem.
Again, what people are doing is none of anyone's business. People promoting their own opinions of what looks better as truth is the problem.
I've also seen lots of posts about how super muscular people look "gross". That's just as bad. Body positivity doesn't just apply to the more "round" bodies. Body shaming is not acceptable against ANYBODY.25 -
Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?
Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers. People are not taught from a young age that their self-worth is tied to their ability to write like Hemingway or Homer.
The point is that if someone has a goal and they achieve it, are they hurting those who cannot achieve that goal (for whatever reason)?
Society generally prefers certain body types, but it's certainly not limited to the specific body type achieved through serious body building. You don't require a six pack to avoid social consequences.
I generally think that people shouldn't limit themselves in order to ensure that others feel good.
If anything, the response should be to value more types of physical fitness, not encouraging certain people to give up on their goals because it might make some others feel bad.17 -
absolutely not. normal healthy body builders do NOT flaunt themselves all over society...they quietly live their healthy lives. THE EXTREME you may be thinking of is bad for society like ALL EXTREMES.6
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Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Personally I actually feel much much worse when I see someone who is naturally beautiful in a way I will never be, or has a talent I will never have. If there is a possibility of hard work taking me there I get inspired by others and know it can be done.34 -
cmriverside wrote: »Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.
You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.6 -
cmriverside wrote: »Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.
You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.
If people will be negatively impacted simply by looking at me and seeing what I've decided to do with my spare time, I'm not convinced the problem is me.43 -
If I am infertile, do people have an obligation not to have babies?
38 -
I understand the argument that you are making, but the problem is not that there are bodybuilders who are willing to sacrifice and spend unending hours in a gym to achieve what they believe are the 'perfect' body (and more than likely damage their health with various illegal substances to achieve their goals). The actual problem is a societal issue with how the bodybuilders are perceived. Banning the 'sport' of bodybuilding will not solve the problem, society would simply move on to the next thing that gets idolized/glorified/etc.
I mean, if you were to ban bodybuilding because it makes some people feel bad about themselves, what gets banned next? Blue eyes, blonde hair, beauty....? You should do a Google search on 'The Twilight Zone' - they actually covered this very topic more than 40 years ago by depicting a society that forced all people who had reached puberty to undergo plastic surgery so that all people would be the same (thus eliminating envy). There have also been a number of SciFi writers who have covered this topic extensively.15 -
I understand the argument that you are making, but the problem is not that there are bodybuilders who are willing to sacrifice and spend unending hours in a gym to achieve what they believe are the 'perfect' body (and more than likely damage their health with various illegal substances to achieve their goals). The actual problem is a societal issue with how the bodybuilders are perceived. Banning the 'sport' of bodybuilding will not solve the problem, society would simply move on to the next thing that gets idolized/glorified/etc.
I mean, if you were to ban bodybuilding because it makes some people feel bad about themselves, what gets banned next? Blue eyes, blonde hair, beauty....? You should do a Google search on 'The Twilight Zone' - they actually covered this very topic more than 40 years ago by depicting a society that forced all people who had reached puberty to undergo plastic surgery so that all people would be the same (thus eliminating envy). There have also been a number of SciFi writers who have covered this topic extensively.
A classic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron5 -
The act of bodybuilding, no. Being involved in bodybuilding in itself is not a jab at those who aren't. We don't openly criticize people who have great personalities and social intelligence as "bad for society" because they make other people feel bad about themselves.
Promoting bodies achieved through bodybuilding as the ideal, and that every other type of body is inferior is a whole different story, but it doesn't have anything to do with the act of bodybuilding itself. Even though I don't agree with it, I would still argue that even that isn't exactly bad for society. It's a symptom, not the issue. There have always been and will always be idealized body shapes which by default marginalizes other body shapes. If a muscular body isn't it, something else is. We either get all sensitive about it, or we accept it as part of how we evolved as humans.7 -
Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I understand the argument that you are making, but the problem is not that there are bodybuilders who are willing to sacrifice and spend unending hours in a gym to achieve what they believe are the 'perfect' body (and more than likely damage their health with various illegal substances to achieve their goals). The actual problem is a societal issue with how the bodybuilders are perceived. Banning the 'sport' of bodybuilding will not solve the problem, society would simply move on to the next thing that gets idolized/glorified/etc.
I mean, if you were to ban bodybuilding because it makes some people feel bad about themselves, what gets banned next? Blue eyes, blonde hair, beauty....? You should do a Google search on 'The Twilight Zone' - they actually covered this very topic more than 40 years ago by depicting a society that forced all people who had reached puberty to undergo plastic surgery so that all people would be the same (thus eliminating envy). There have also been a number of SciFi writers who have covered this topic extensively.
A classic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
Thanks Jane - I love that story and had a complete brain-fart trying to come up with the title!3 -
cmriverside wrote: »Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.
You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.
It's also not my problem if someone has an issue with the way I choose to look or dress or live as long as I'm not being openly disrespectful.
If someone has "body-positivity" issues they need therapy, not help in using their neuroses as battering rams to push forward their special snowflake status.
IMNSVHO
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Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.
So then what about super models or actors? That is definitely not accessible to everyone. That is mostly genetics, hard work, and luck.
Or what about those that get plastic surgery?6 -
I've been in and out of gyms since I was about 16 years old...for the most part, people I've known who lift don't just do it for aesthetics...that's only part of it.
I wouldn't consider myself a body builder in the least, but I do lift and over time my aesthetics have changed. I mostly lift because it's really good for my body from a health standpoint...putting on a little muscle is a really nice bi-product. I don't have a 6 pack and never will, nor do I care to...it's not really a goal I've ever had and I like beer too much.
I am functionally strong and like what I see aesthetically. I don't personally perceive a "body builders" body as being the "ideal" and I've never felt any kind of societal pressure to look a bodybuilder.6 -
Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.
So then what about super models or actors? That is definitely not accessible to everyone. That is mostly genetics, hard work, and luck.
Or what about those that get plastic surgery?
Supermodels certainly contribute to society's idea of ideal body image and many might argue that we'd be better off without that profession. I don't see how actors fit the analogy -- they are doing/creating something, like a writer or baker, not perpetuating an ideal.
Plastic surgery -- idk, that's a topic I know nothing about. I'd imagine some plastic surgery is healthy and some isn't.2
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