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Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Actually I think body image is improving not getting exponentially worse.1 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.
Selfless - really? Not just a meaningless act to make themselves feel morally superior?
15 -
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.19 -
singingflutelady wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Actually I think body image is improving not getting exponentially worse.
Agree. We've largely moved away from the "Twiggy" image of the '60s, which basically promoted anorexia/drug use. Same with the "heroin chic" of the '90s. The "idealized body image" of today is much healthier than either of those.5 -
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
Why is one better than the other?
I am really bad at working on strength/powerlifitng. Even if I try to compete against myself. I fail and get discouraged. I end up feeling really bad, no matter what I would compare myself to others. So should others not lift as heavy or be proud of their numbers just because it makes me feel bad? No. Clearly this is MY issue with myself.5 -
An ad like this would not have been acceptable in the past, even the recent past. It only got a few negative comments when before people would have commented about how gross it is. But body image is getting worse?
3 -
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
But why pick on bodybuilding? I do endurance running and that (combined with calorie control) results in a body type that is closer to society's ideal than the bodies of some other people. Why should a bodybuilder forgo their sport to make others feel better but not me?
Many kinds of activity -- combined with appropriate calorie intake -- result in bodies that are widely viewed as more aethetically pleasing than the body that is the typical result of a sedentary lifestyle and an excess of calories. There's no point in focusing only on bodybuilding here.7 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results
Yeh. Because a psychologist doesn't have any kind of financial reason to create, promote, and propagate neurosis.3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results
That article was written in 19977 -
singingflutelady wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Actually I think body image is improving not getting exponentially worse.
Agree. We've largely moved away from the "Twiggy" image of the '60s, which basically promoted anorexia/drug use. Same with the "heroin chic" of the '90s. The "idealized body image" of today is much healthier than either of those.
Your perspective ignores the rising incidence of eating disorders worldwide and the rising incidence of body image dissatisfaction.
https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/blog/eating-disorders-world-overview
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results4 -
cmriverside wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results
Yeh. Because a psychologist doesn't have any kind of financial reason to create, promote, and propagate neurosis.
Check out the date on the article1 -
Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
"look good" is in the eye of the beholder. I really don't think the body of a bodybuilder is being espoused as the "ideal body" either.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
But why pick on bodybuilding? I do endurance running and that (combined with calorie control) results in a body type that is closer to society's ideal than the bodies of some other people. Why should a bodybuilder forgo their sport to make others feel better but not me?
Many kinds of activity -- combined with appropriate calorie intake -- result in bodies that are widely viewed as more aethetically pleasing than the body that is the typical result of a sedentary lifestyle and an excess of calories. There's no point in focusing only on bodybuilding here.
The only reason is that marathon running is functional -- you are training your body to do something. Bodybuilding is training your body to have a certain look. The look is the purpose, not the byproduct. Not saying I agree with that, but that's the distinction.7 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.
Selfless - really? Not just a meaningless act to make themselves feel morally superior?
Or, it may be just their preference and people read into it more than they should. I never wear makeup. Reason: can't be arsed. Often times it's not a great sacrifice for the good of people at the altar of social justice, but people who care about an issue tend to see the world through their particular glasses.10 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results
I'm not a big fan of survey statistics that rely on a small group of people's feelz, especially from a psychologist, but duly noted.
Regardless, I think it has far more to do with not instilling young people with values, work ethic, a focus on lifetime learning (both skill oriented and knowledge oriented), and a logical understanding of priorities than it does with idealized body types.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.
Selfless - really? Not just a meaningless act to make themselves feel morally superior?
Or, it may be just their preference and people read into it more than they should. I never wear makeup. Reason: can't be arsed. Often times it's not a great sacrifice for the good of people at the altar of social justice, but people who care about an issue tend to see the world through their particular glasses.
I don't wear makeup either because I can't be arsed.8 -
Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.18 -
singingflutelady wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.
Do you have any data to back up the bolded?
You do know women used to nearly kill themselves wearing super tight corsets and lbs of wig, right? They actually carried smelling salts to revive themselves when they passed out due to lack of oxygen. And tribal women who stretched their necks with bands? Ancient Asian women cramming their feet into smaller and smaller slippers? Tribes that poked holes in different body parts, female mutilation, body tattoos, all to look like/be like everyone else?
ETA: Rather than trying to create the first society to not value some kind of physical attribute, or limit people's pride in their "form" accomplishments, we should be doing a better job of teaching young people what about them is valuable, what their potential is, and how to feel confident regardless.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/199702/body-image-in-america-survey-results
Yeh. Because a psychologist doesn't have any kind of financial reason to create, promote, and propagate neurosis.
Check out the date on the article
It was updated 20170
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