Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
Options
Replies
-
Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.
So then what about super models or actors? That is definitely not accessible to everyone. That is mostly genetics, hard work, and luck.
Or what about those that get plastic surgery?
Supermodels certainly contribute to society's idea of ideal body image and many might argue that we'd be better off without that profession. I don't see how actors fit the analogy -- they are doing/creating something, like a writer or baker, not perpetuating an ideal.
Sure they are - they are perpetuating the ideal hair style, facial features, all of that nonsense. How many times do things like fashion, make-up, etc. change just because some actor on a screen did it and now everybody wants to be like that actor?7 -
Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.
So then what about super models or actors? That is definitely not accessible to everyone. That is mostly genetics, hard work, and luck.
Or what about those that get plastic surgery?
Supermodels certainly contribute to society's idea of ideal body image and many might argue that we'd be better off without that profession. I don't see how actors fit the analogy -- they are doing/creating something, like a writer or baker, not perpetuating an ideal.
Many people look to actors as an ideal for beauty as well. The way they look, their bodies, how they dress etc.
So beautiful people should just hide? How would we advertise? Not hire anyone? Maybe a computer generated person or robot? That could cause a whole new set of issues.7 -
Is it still causing harm if someone is naturally beautiful or fit? Or what if they actually go out and get their hair done, nails, makeup, tan, wear nice clothes and jewelry, etc. Should those people not do that either because they will make others feel bad? I am just trying to figure out where we would draw the line here in terms of working/changing aesthetics.
Hmm. Perhaps a difference is that anyone can fancy themselves up. That's accessible. Not anyone can achieve idealized physical beauty. So, perhaps it's more similar to a billionnaire flaunting their wealth. You don't become a billionnaire with hard work; you become a billionnaire with hard work + serious luck.
So then what about super models or actors? That is definitely not accessible to everyone. That is mostly genetics, hard work, and luck.
Or what about those that get plastic surgery?
Supermodels certainly contribute to society's idea of ideal body image and many might argue that we'd be better off without that profession. I don't see how actors fit the analogy -- they are doing/creating something, like a writer or baker, not perpetuating an ideal.
Many people look to actors as an ideal for beauty as well. The way they look, their bodies, how they dress etc.
So beautiful people should just hide? How would we advertise? Not hire anyone? Maybe a computer generated person or robot? That could cause a whole new set of issues.
Yes it would, because again, this does not deal with the problem - it only deals with the symptoms of the problem. The problem is not that people are different, the actual problem is that because people are different, some people get all butthurt because they cannot be THAT person.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?
Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers. People are not taught from a young age that their self-worth is tied to their ability to write like Hemingway or Homer.
In the same way, I'd leave powerlifting out of this conversation -- because that's about function -- how much you can lift.
So it's unhealthy to make others feel bad that they don't have the body you worked hard for, but it's fine if other people feel bad they don't have the skills you worked hard for? Because form over function? What about people who are embarrassed that they didn't finish high school, or have to drive a jalopy, or can't swim?
I think it's important to make sure there are role models and pop culture models of all different shapes, sizes, genders, races, etc. And no one should be made fun of or belittled for how they look. But it's impossible to have a society that doesn't occasionally hero-worship a particular aesthetic. That aesthetic will be harder for some people than for others - sometimes life sucks. I'm super fair-skinned. Like albino-vampire fair. For most of my life, being tan has been a cultural ideal here. Sometimes I felt embarrassed that I could never fit that mold, but I got over it. I'd guess everyone in the history of everyone has had physical traits they were embarrassed by or were made fun of at some point.
But I guess I don't really agree with your bolded point that "The key difference is form over function". I have a way better chance of getting a fit, muscular body than I did of magically producing melanin and being able to get a deep tan. I'd put bodybuilding in the function bucket, not form. I might not be able to look like the picture on the cover of the bodybuilding magazine, but putting on some lipstick and eyeliner ain't making me look like Nicole Kidman either. Is she being inconsiderate to me? Should TV and movies and magazines only show people with average attainable looks and builds? Wouldn't that make very fit or tall or beautiful people feel marginalized and bad about themselves? Do you know how many muscular women are still to this day made fun of, can't find clothes that fit right, and get negatively stereotyped?19 -
I think it's a ridiculous argument. Same could be said for anyone who does anything to improve the way they look, or any talent that anyone might have. People don't have an obligation to walk on eggshells to cater to people with low self-esteem. Also, I don't believe body builders have the "ideal" or most attractive body type to most people. I don't think *most* people look at a bodybuilder and think "I wish I looked like that." I'm not a huge fan of bodybuilding or figure competitions in general but for none of the reasons given by your friend or whoever.10
-
I'll start by saying I think that the HAES movement is a bunch of BS, and I absolutely detest the "everybody gets a trophy" and "safe spaces" mentalities.
With that context established, my opinion is that bodybuilding (in the recreational sense) is a net positive for society at best, net neutral at worst. People involved in it are striving for a healthy weight/body composition and better dietary/fitness habits than the average member of society (who in most cases is unfit and overfat).
If that creates problems with unfit and overfat people, that's their problem to deal with. Creating a "lowest common denominator" environment (i.e., that we'd all be better off it nobody did bodybuilding) is ridiculous. People who have body positivity issues also generally have bigger issues with self-acceptance/confidence/self-esteem which go far beyond just the shape of their body. The onus is upon them to work those issues out - not upon fit people to quit working out because their being fit hurts other people's feelings. Should we also posit that we'd be better off as a society if nobody ran marathons/triathlons because many people can't do that either? How about professional sports, since only an infinitesimal percentage of the general population has the talent/abilities/drive to ever attain that level?
Bodybuilding is an external goal based upon function also, and is directly related to one's ability to do or create something. Creating an aesthetic body takes a lot of discipline and hard work.Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body.
The reality is that society, as a whole, couldn't care less how fit one is or is not. That is mostly a made-up fixation in the minds of people with body positivity/self-esteem issues. If we want to re-structure the question and ask if certain branches of the media glorify and focus unduly upon having a certain/"ideal" type of body, that's an entirely different discussion. That frames the issue in a more relevant context than putting the blame upon fit people for hurting other people's feelz by having the drive and self-discipline to do what they do.Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers.26 -
[quote="harneska;d-10685640"then for society, because emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles. That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding.
I'm not sure what to think about this and couldn't find anything online written about this exact angle. I'm curious what this community thinks. If I, as an individual, want to go to the gym to specifically build muscle for aesthetic reasons, is that a bad thing for society? I especially want to hear from those who are well-versed in the body-positivity world or have struggled with body positivity themselves.[/quote]
A person doing their best is not causing harm to anyone else. The person COMPARING themselves to someone doing their best is harming their own self. I have personal experience: I once had a 4 pack. I thought I was fat, because I compared myself to women in MAGAZINES that had 6 packs. Now I have belly fat (thanks kids). I've worked on it for YEARS, and it isn't back at the 4 pack level yet. Now, I have friends IRL with 6 packs. And I am VERY HAPPY with my progress, even though my tummy is nowhere near as slim as what it was when I thought I was fat! The difference is that I stopped comparing myself to those who are farther along. Instead, I compared myself to how I was when I really struggling with my weight.
Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
That is the level of stupidity of this argument.
Sorry to sound so harsh, but it really made me angry. Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potentional is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
14 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.12 -
cmriverside wrote: »Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.
You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.janejellyroll wrote: »If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?
Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers. People are not taught from a young age that their self-worth is tied to their ability to write like Hemingway or Homer.
In the same way, I'd leave powerlifting out of this conversation -- because that's about function -- how much you can lift.
So this is a personal question, not a general one. If you widen your perspective to every person who suffers a feeling of inferiority, you would see that the feeling is the same and not to be taken lightly. A struggling writer for whom writing is an integral part of their self suffers just as much as someone who struggles with body image. You can pinpoint the issue right there: the perspective of those who are suffering. Their feelings are not to be taken lightly, and would not be served by changing the world, but by understanding and treating the underlying issues.
If the world woke up one day and every single person on the planet was fat, I can guarantee that those with self-esteem issues would still be suffering, comparing their fat storage patterns to other fat people and feeling negative about their bodies.
Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilders suffer from a poor body image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it starts inside not outside.18 -
I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Take a stroll through the forums and see how many people have lost all the weight they wanted to lose but still felt fat and unattractive until they started working on the underlying issue. This may be news to you, but some of the most accomplished bodybuilder suffer from a poor self image and have major body insecurities.
You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.
Where does the poor self-image come from though? Surely you would agree that when it comes to body image, in the last 100 years the problem has gotten exponentially worse. The root cause for the heightened incidence is outside, not inside. Saying everybody should look inwards or see a therapist does not acknowledge systemic issues that have worsened the problem greatly. It's like saying, if you get sick from drinking contaminated water, you should go to the doctor for treatment -- yes, of course, but society should also find a way to avoid having contaminated water in the first place, or at least to have it less often, like we used to.5 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???11 -
And maybe this is really why it gets on my nerves:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=XeG0Zr1oiLM
Too skinny? You gotta gain some weight. You gain weight. Now you're too fat. You need to workout. You workout. Now you're too muscular.
Achieve the highest level of aesthetics ideal? Not gonna happen, because see above.
DA FK!!!
How about I DO ME and you DO you. If I want muscular legs and pecs, thats MY BODY.
ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME AS A WOMAN WHAT TO DO WITH MY OWN BODY???????????????
And it doesn't even matter anyway, because, as the video shows above, there is NOTHING ANY WOMAN is ever going to do to her own body is going to prevent not negatively judge her body.
Because haters.
6 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »...If the world woke up one day and every single person on the planet was fat, I can guarantee that those with self-esteem issues would still be suffering, comparing their fat storage patterns to other fat people and feeling negative about their bodies...
And on the flip side of that scenario, if the world woke up one day and every single person on the planet was lean and at an ideal weight, I can guarantee that those with self-esteem issues would still be suffering. Their nose isn't perfect, they have brown eyes instead of blue eyes, they wish their ears were smaller, their calves aren't shaped like another person's, they don't have the same biceps peak as that guy in the gym, their glutes aren't as round/big as the woman over there, etc., etc.
100% correct.amusedmonkey wrote: »You're looking for the solution in the wrong place, it's starts inside not outside.12 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.
I'm naturally blessed with a face that looks younger than my chronological age (people typically guess I'm in my late 20s or early 30s and I'm almost 40). Since youth is currently over-valued for women, are you saying it would be "selfless" to artificially age myself so I don't make other women who look my age and older feel bad about themselves?
Where are we drawing the line here?
Yes, there are physical ideals in society. I don't know if that obligates us to reject them and pursue the opposite to avoid being selfish.9 -
I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.3 -
Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???1 -
I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?10 -
I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
All the more reason not to deny ourselves hobbies that are enjoyable or pleasurable because they might result in a body that accidentally makes others feel bad about their own body.5 -
I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
I would never say he is ugly, but I am in no way physically attracted to him, at all. He does not possess the body I personally find attractive. I kind of feel the same way looking at a machine.
He is a cool guy, a great actor though, and I do love him in Thor. 5
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 913 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions