50 days in, only -12lbs
crisb2
Posts: 329 Member
Went to a nutritionist she recommended this "protein shake" method called Pronokal from Spain, where you need to be in ketosis to lose weight, etc. I told her I had an idea of what keto was, so let's just get to it and that night I read Keto-Adapted from cover to cover to be more informed. I lost ten pounds in the first 2 weeks (no big deal, I've lost more on "all-inclusive" diets) I've lost like 5% BF according to doc. I didn't have the keto flu, my doc said it was probably because I was six months into what I call "unintentional" Intermittent Fasting (I was just too lazy to bother with feeding myself three times a day). The shakes have good keto ratios and I'm supposed to have 5 a day. But, they're expensive so I've been mixing them in with some food and I think they're too low in calories so I add some coconut oil and heavy cream to them. My doc checks me out every ten days to see if I'm in ketosis, which I am. I drink 3-4 liters of water a day. I only eat between 2-10pm, IF. I've started doing fasted cardio, I don't get dizzy or feel low on energy. I sleep eight hours every single night. I'm not stressed. I try to keep it below 25g of carbs per day. I'm supplementing with multivitamins, omega-3, potassium and magnesium. I don't eat back my calories. I don't drink alcohol, sodas or juices. I tried eating MORE calories. I tried eating less calories. I tried eating more fat. Adjusted macros. Used macro formulas. I tried eating more protein. I am stuck between 182-184 pounds for 40 days now! I'm not dropping pounds or slimming measurements. I feel good after quitting carbs and sugar. But, it'd be nice if I was dropping some weight too.
Diary code is: 12345
And I know this is going to come up, but I bought REAL food this weekend and trying to focus more on those instead of the stupid shakes starting tomorrow, but what else can I do?
Diary code is: 12345
And I know this is going to come up, but I bought REAL food this weekend and trying to focus more on those instead of the stupid shakes starting tomorrow, but what else can I do?
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I had never heard of this before and tried googling it, but didn't come back with a lot of information. That makes me skeptical. Is this a doctor that you were referred to by your primary care doctor or part of a weight loss program that you had to sign up for and are paying extra for? Be careful with those programs, they are only about short term loss and not long term health.
That being said, I think you can have better results following a keto diet which includes real foods. The cost will be less and your body will get the nutrients from a diverse group of foods, not some prepacked and probably lab built replacement meal.
If you are consistently in ketosis, but not losing any weight, then something is very wrong. How is your doctor checking you for ketosis and do you have access to ketostix to check your urine yourself? Do you have any of the other symptoms of ketosis (smelly urine, acetone breath, high thirst)?
I wish you the best of luck!! I can imagine your frustration if you are being so strict with following a program that is not easy, yet not having any good results.0 -
My primary care physician referred me to this nutritionist that works within her own practice, the actual products are bought elsewhere. It's a worldwide program, i've seen it mentioned before: http://www.pronokal.com/ since it's from spain most of the stuff available is in spanish. I told her I wasn't interested in the "lose 30 pounds in 30 days program" but if she was willing to monitor my ketosis and guide me, i'd be up for it.
My doctor is checking for ketosis with ketostix every ten days, and I had a urine analysis lab test that had high acetone levels in my urine as well (don't remember the range) but I was in ketosis. I'm not sure about my breath but my saliva is sweet (does that help?), I am thirsty all the time and my urine is only smelly during the morning, because I drink so much water it usually just comes out clear, every 10 minutes.0 -
Legitimate question: Does she make a profit off you purchasing this? Honestly, truthfully, regardless of whatever lifestyle someone follows, you do not need shakes, bars, drinks, blends, herbs, etc. that people try to sell to be successful.
Eating real, whole food within whatever calories and macro ratios you want to follow is your best bet. Will you be drinking these shakes the rest of your life? If not, it's not sustainable, therefore not reasonable. What happens when you stop buying them and have to turn to real food? Most likely you'll gain some back, at the very least.
When you eat real food - what calories are you eating and what are you eating for your macros? That will help us guide you.0 -
I looked at your diary. You SHOULD be loosing weight if everything is accurate in your diary. The scale you use to weigh yourself, what kind is it? Digital? Balance beam? Is it on a hard floor? (not carpet). Is the scale an old one or newish one?0
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crisb2--What does the nutritionist say?
I've been in ketosis for over 3 weeks and not lost anything so I changed my macros to 15% protein.
I looked at your diary and noticed you're eating more protein than fat on most days (in the past week) which can throw things off. I'd try to adhere more to fat source diet.
Or,
...try lowering your protein and upping the fat. From what I'm reading making this adjustment can help (something like 5/15/80).
I'm wondering the same thing as DAM5412 about that nutritionist getting perks for promoting PronoKal. It has mixed reviews ( the few I found). I could be mistaken but, I didn't read anywhere it's a reputable keto-based food source. Shakes are known to stall weightloss (mainly because sugar subtitutes). I'd ditch the shakes...or at least minimize and get some real meals.
In the end, I agree with DittoDan that you should have had more weightloss just from the caloric deficit alone. However, the first month or so is about fine tuning your macros. Some people are lucky and can hit the mark immediatly. Others, like us, takes more tinkering and patience.0 -
Crisb;Went to a nutritionist she recommended this "protein shake" method called Pronokal <snipped>
I drink 3-4 liters of water a day. I only eat between 2-10pm, IF. I've started doing fasted cardio, I don't get dizzy or feel low on energy. I sleep eight hours every single night. I'm not stressed. I try to keep it below 25g of carbs per day. I'm supplementing with multivitamins, omega-3, potassium and magnesium. I don't eat back my calories. I don't drink alcohol, sodas or juices. I tried eating MORE calories. I tried eating less calories. I tried eating more fat. Adjusted macros. Used macro formulas. I tried eating more protein. I am stuck between 182-184 pounds for 40 days now! I'm not dropping pounds or slimming measurements. I feel good after quitting carbs and sugar. But, it'd be nice if I was dropping some weight too.
Diary code is: 12345
And I know this is going to come up, but I bought REAL food this weekend and trying to focus more on those instead of the stupid shakes starting tomorrow, but what else can I do?
I really tried to stay out of this discussion because I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to comment without it sounding negative. But you did ask, so please bear with me and know that my reply isn't intended as an attack.
I really am not very good at "smooze" (I know, because my bride tells me so...often) - so know that it's NOT intended to be personal, it's just how I am.
BUT.....my reaction to everything you've posted is that both your doc and the "nutritionist", saw you coming.
Were I you, I'd fire BOTH of them in a heartbeat.
The doc "recommended the nutritionist who has her own practice" - really?
Sounds (to me) more like the doc is getting a kickback from a charlatan making a quick buck selling snake oil.
The doc "checks my ketosis with ketostyx every 10 days"? You must be kidding, why on earth would a legitimate doctor charge you (or your insurance company) for an office visit every 10 days to use a ketostyx?
You can do that yourself for a couple bucks - and any reputable doc would know that ketostyx are the MOST unreliable method. If s/he is a "real" MD, why not at least a blood test?
Then s/he sends you for a lab test and they do a urine test?.....why urine (the least reliable and basically a glorified (as in a couple hundred bucks compared to a few bucks), ketostyx test?????
Why?
Others have made the point (much more delicately than I) but you really do need to take a couple steps back and recognize these snake oil salesmen/women for what they are.
STOP wasting your time, money, and efforts on the protein shakes - you are making them rich and yourself crazy for no reason.
Five of her "shakes" a day (at 15 proteins each) ALONE, exceeds your daily requirements for protein - how does that make sense?
The last set of macros you've set is reasonable - but ONLY if you reach them with REAL FOOD.
I only looked at the last couple days of your diary but for those your proteins have run between 30 and 55% - WAY too high, (and in my mind, probably the reason you've stalled), but understandable when you've been instructed to use the "shakes" daily.
Start over, and STICK to something for more than a couple days and you'll find success.
Blind faith in self-proclaimed "experts" won't get you there (which I think you are realizing) - taking matters into your own hands (and doing the required research), WILL.
Nothing in the Pronokal website's list of their "clinical studies" shows one iota of incremental benefit of their "plan" over ANY LCHF plan. Not to mention the fact that they play fast and loose with their claims of "xxx times better than cal and fat restricted plans".
It's an infomercial scheme that fakeDoc Oz would be proud of.
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The point wasn't to have to defend the program because I am not blindly following it... The nutritionist tells me that I am her most difficult patient because I've actually bothered with informing myself and ask all the questions that other people don't. I don't just drink the shakes, I flat out told her that I thought the shakes were stupid and too expensive and that I could be in ketosis without them, which she conceded. The "every 10 days" is not to pee on a ketostix, i'm aware I can buy them online... it's to get a personalized approach. The urine test was for something else and it just came back that the acetone was really high, it was coincidental. Basically, instead of asking on a discussion board I ask her every 10-15 days any questions and we switch it up depending on the week's results. I believe in the doctor that referred me, she just got me through the most difficult year of my life, with the death of my son and the rare condition that he had during my pregnancy. So, if she's recommending it, it's not just "to make a profit because i'm an idiot". The nutritionist, I'm still on the fence about, because she's obviously getting a kickback, but it seemed like a reasonable plan were they put you quickly into ketosis (because they KNOW the carbs in their shakes) and then they slowly ween you off them by lowering the number of shakes a day and start introducing food groups every month, so i'm not just going to up and quit and get 5 pizzas a day... and I'm not on here complaining "my magic shakes haven't made me skinny in a week" I'm adjusting macros, logging meals, blah, blah... everything I said before. I didn't buy them to be a magic solution, I bought them because they are convenient ways to make crepes, pancakes and other protein foods without having to buy a bunch of weird ingredients at 5 different stores. And as I said before as well, I'm just gonna stop buying them all together because they're not worth the money if I'm not even buying into all their BS claims anyways....(which i never did anyways).
So, answering someone else's question... My scale is digital, it perfectly matches the big one with the sliding weights at my doctor's office every single time. It's on a hard surface. And I do log every single thing I eat. Even the fried chicken I just had just because I felt like it...
I've read about PISS, and carb-cycling... but don't really get how it works or how to fix it... should i even bother with finding out more about those?
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This was my latest macro breakdown:
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*Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.4*
27/F/5'5" | CW 184 | 41% BF | Mostly sedentary
* 1317 kcal Goal, a 30% deficit. (630 min, 1881 max)
* 20g Carbohydrates
* 70g Protein (66g min, 108g max)
* 106g Fat (30g min, 168g max)
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I tried upping the calories but I started gaining, so I cut back again. I upped the fat percentage... I lowered it... i upped it again. I tried the 1g/kg of LBM.... I tried the formula...
It seems absurd to me that if I've been eating similarly for a whole month, and started exercising fifteen days ago... plain math should be that I lose at least 1-2 pounds, because I'm using more energy. I don't know... I'm confused.0 -
When my weight stalls, I get mad, & I show my body who's in charge. I do a water fast for one to four days. Water, salts and vitamins are all I eat. I try to drink 10-12 cups of water a day, which is hard for me. But, a fast will certainly burn some fat off. (And everybody is screaming now saying it will burn some of your muscle too). I don't do exercise and am sedentary too. Also, when coming off a fast you will regain some weight, but not much. You will find out that if you're already in ketosis and adapted (I think you are by looking at your diary), that fasting isn't as bad as you think. Its always way more "negative" in your mind than it is when you actually do it. You're like, "Oh. this isn't so bad after all!". I started the Keto diet on Aug 29th and I have done,
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[
- (1) four day fast
- (1) 3 day fast
- (1) 2 day fasts
- (3) 1 day fasts/list]
When do I end my fast? Well, I let my body tell me or if I meet socially and can't avoid eating. If I feel tired, or blah, or weak, I end it with a 500 calorie Keto meal. Then the next day maybe a some what lower than normal calorie day, then back to normal.
If you research water fasting, you will find out that it is quite beneficial to the body in many other ways than losing weight.
The two negatives I have with fasting is that it sometimes is hard to get to sleep. Fasting is like a stimulant, it makes you super focused, alert, energetic. Secondly, I sometimes get a little constipated.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
P.S. At about 53 days, I have lost about 32 lbs. (Keto & Fasting)
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crisb2--My heart goes out to you for the loss of your son.
You may find the link below interesting. You're not menopausal but your hormones could be acting like it. Sometimes your body grieves with you.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/
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Cris;This was my latest macro breakdown:
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*Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.4*
27/F/5'5" | CW 184 | 41% BF | Mostly sedentary
* 1317 kcal Goal, a 30% deficit. (630 min, 1881 max)
* 20g Carbohydrates
* 70g Protein (66g min, 108g max)
* 106g Fat (30g min, 168g max)
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I tried upping the calories but I started gaining, so I cut back again. I upped the fat percentage... I lowered it... i upped it again. I tried the 1g/kg of LBM.... I tried the formula...
It seems absurd to me that if I've been eating similarly for a whole month, and started exercising fifteen days ago... plain math should be that I lose at least 1-2 pounds, because I'm using more energy. I don't know... I'm confused.
Our hearts too, go out to you. Yours is a situation that we can relate to as we lost our first son at 10 days 25 years ago. I'm sure you've heard it before but as tough as it seems right now it DOES get "better" with time but it does take time - nothing else will ease the pain.
It never "goes away" and there isn't a day that goes by that we don't recall the short time we had with him and as tough as it was, there are many wonderful memories.
As to the doc and nutritionist, it's your relationship with them that matters, not mine (obviously) and I respect you for questioning and learning.
I might suggest a couple things to consider. First, I think there is too much focus on protein (likely as a result of her whole protein "shake" philosophy. Your intake is considerably above recommended daily minimums so you are certainly getting enough unless your exercise routine is preparing you for a marathon.
BTW, it is generally recommended that one not initiate an exercise routine at the same time as beginning a VLC diet although this might not be applicable in your case if you have, in fact, been keto adapted for a while now.
The next thing that sort of jumped out after a quick look at your diary (and your comments above) is that you seem to be jumping around all over the place (daily cal intake, macro composition, etc) and not really giving the changes a fair chance to settle in before you make another change. None of these things happen overnight and the "review with the doc every 10 days and adjust...." makes me question that advice.
Finally, and please don't take this as an "attack", it is NOT meant to be one.
Your latest "numbers" appear to be fine, I'd suggest you give them a couple weeks (at least) before making any changes and see how they work. As you probably know, daily weigh can (and will) fluctuate by as much as 4 pounds for seemingly "no reason" - so don't go off the deep end if a couple days don't produce the results you want.
Focus instead on actually "hitting" those numbers (carbs, fat, protein) EVERY day - something you, quite frankly, have been somewhat lax on from my quick review.
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@deansdad
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Crisb2, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your son. Words cannot express any sense of sympathy or comfort.
I know that a lot of information has come at you since your post, I think the best being to "stay the course" for more then 10 days and see how your body does with consistency. This is my biggest challenge, as I tend to blow my hard work each weekend, and then have to work to get back into Keto within a few days. I see a little raise in my weight after each bombed weekend, and then a slight drop once I'm back on Keto for a few days.
I'm kinda intrigued by Dan's water fast suggestion. I know there are days on Keto when I literally have to make myself eat something, but I don't know how I'd do with a fast. It may be something worth looking into (for me at least).0 -
Thanks all for your advice and sympathetic words.
I'm going to try to stick to my current macros for a couple of weeks with real foods. If that doesn't do the trick I'll try the water fast, because I suck at drinking vitamins with nothing in my stomach... usually just end up throwing them up. So, I'll leave that as a last resort, I know it won't be that hard because I usually forget to eat as long as I'm chugging water.0 -
My condolences regarding your son.
What sticks out most to me is how is the pronokal shake 90 calories with 15 grams fat (135 cals), 15 grams protein (60 cals), and 4 carbs (16 cals)? That's 211 cals per shake...more than double. Are you using a correct entry in MFP to log these? I would investigate all of the entries to make certain they are accurate, as many in MFP are not accurate at all.
Also, that does not seem like a good keto ratio in the shakes, because protein is supposed to be moderate. Too much protein means you turn it to sugar just like eating carbs, and it stores as fat. The ratio isn't too far off, but this is not real food, and you said you are adding coconut oil and heavy cream to them, to make up for too low calories. If you ate 5 per day with an accurate account of their nutrition, that is 1055 cals in shakes toward your 1300 from your calculator.
I looked at your diary, and I don't see two weeks worth of the pronokal system. When did you start that? Did you stick to it exactly for two weeks when you lost that 10 lbs? Have you cheated at all? The fried chicken, chocolate chips, other brand shakes, artificial sweeteners, alcohol, etc., can all cause problems if consumed. Everyone is different, but sometimes certain food items can be problematic for people to stay in ketosis.
I see Slim Fast shakes in your diary, and I also see a lot of days that don't come near 1300 calories, and you said you are doing fasted cardio, but not what kind, how hard or how long. I wonder if you are netting so few calories that your body has possibly adjusted your metabolism downward.
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I've modified a bunch of stuff. That's why a lot of it probably won't make any sense. I did a month's worth of pronokal before coming back to MFP. I've quit the pronokal thing for good though. Everything I put in my mouth is in the diaries, even when I'm cheating. That's why you see the no-no foods on there.0
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Update:
Weight is still the same, but clothes are definitely looser. I think I'll start measuring more areas in my body instead of just the ones MFP tracks. Because my real waist is a tiny tiny tiny bit smaller, but muffin top has all but disappeared making pant waist way looser, same as belly pooch. Hips are the same, but clothes fit looser around thighs. So, maybe I'm just measuring in places that the weight loss hasn't caught up yet.0 -
That's good news crisb2! No nutritionist needed.0
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Actually a lot of people do need them, and I lost the first ten pounds/ got into keto with her. But, thanks for that... -.-0
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I think you're doing great! I had to put my marathon hat a few weeks ago because I am super impatient with weight loss especially when I REALLY want to lose weight. I find that the scale will register the same weight for 5 days straight and then suddenly dip. Or my cycle interferes but it IS coming off. Your pants are proving it! Tie up your proverbial running shoes and join me in this marathon!
Also, try plugging your weights in weightgrapher.com. It smooths out the bumps and shows the trend and that helped in the psychological war to success.0
