How to cardio and low-carb ?

Foamroller

F 43 yrs, 61 kg (9 kg lost)

I'm doing a lot of cardio. 2-3x a week with hard WO and walk/run on my no gym days. I've been doing fairly low carb 50-100 g the past 3 weeks or so.

So... I summon you low-carb vets, teach a noob how to do it:)...or point me in the right directions pls.

Oh, btw another question. Last week I participated in a practical course to become a certified spinning instructor. We did a total of +11 hours on the bike within 4 days (thur-sun). Most of those were fairly low intensity (65-75%) But I reckon about 2.5-3 hours of those were 80-87% and maybe 15 minutes max were in 88-95% oxygen intake. Reached 95% twice.

On sunday my muscles were totally shot and my bum sore. But my energy level was high! I didn't carb crash or feel any dizzyness. Had a small apple, 2 plums and 100g sweet potato each day. What stopped me was my muscles, not energy level. I was pretty sure I have had too much carbs to be in ketosis. But could I be wrong?

Edit: I'm reading Phinney and Volek atm. Tried to search a bit around on reddit. Leafed through the FAQ.
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

I also try to keep my macros LCHF in check using this calc:
http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

sljohnson1207

Well, ketosis is a personal issue. Many folks can achieve it at your level of carbs, and many cannot until they get down to <20g. Some can with <50g.

To pretty much guarantee ketosis, <20 Gross carbs is recommended, but I believe anecdotally that many, if not most, can achieve it with <20g NET carbs (gross - fiber - sugar alcohols = NET).

Now, since it appears you are pretty active...you don't say what kind of cardio at the gym (machines vs. BodyPump, Step, Zumba, etc.?) and you did that intense 4 days of spin instructor school, I bet you have been there at least on some days in the past 3 weeks. On those days you said you had an apple, 2 plums, and 100g sweet potato each day. Putting that in MFP, a large apple, 2 plums (2 1/8"), and 100g sweet potato (raw weight), calculates to 54 NET carbs. I have to assume you ate at least a few other negligible carbs on those days from cheese, eggs, cream, veggies, etc. It's entirely possible that your muscles were depleted of glycogen by the end of those 4 days, which is what you want for proper ketosis.

It also depends on how long you've been eating LCHF as to whether or not you are in ketosis or actually keto-adapted. Since you said 3 weeks, and your carb level has been 50-100 (kind of broad range), I'd say you may be in ketosis, but likely not keto-adapted (using fats primarily for energy), esp. if you bounce around in a range 50 carbs broad.

I feel that being consistent is what is very important, esp. in the beginning when trying to become adapted. Going in and out of ketosis is not really recommended unless that is what you want to do. It's also not recommended to do heavy exercise (gentle exercise is fine) when doing induction type eating (<20g carbs) until the keto flu passes, and closer to keto-adaptation when you get that rush of energy you never had before.

So, really, it's a matter of being clear on your goals.
Ask yourself these questions:

Do I want to lose weight (fat, not muscle)?
or
Am I more concerned with athletic performance?
Do I want to be in ketosis and eventually keto-adapted all the time for weight loss and/or health benefits associated with ketosis?
Do I feel good when I exercise, or do I feel weak, light-headed, and/or worn out?
Am I eating enough total calories for my height, sex, age, weight, activity level?

You set your goals, and then make the plan work for you.

Foamroller

Ty sljohnson for the long and thoughtful answer:) You're right, I was a bit unpresise. You also made me think clearer about my goals.

Now, to answer you back. The intense WO I do are roughly 30-40 mins of light upper body strength, cause I'm a total noob at it. Then 40 mins intense spinning 80-95% and 50 mins of low intensity below 75%, including warmup and winddown. Total 2 hours. Or I jump in on a normal spinning class 55 min. I do this up to 3x a week. On rest days I walk or run, depending on how spent my legs are.

So the question is really how much does exercise impact on people's ability to stay in ketosis? I mean are there any numbers on how much you need to burn if you went over by let's say 20 g carbs?

Or do people do targeted keto diets and if so, how do they do it?
I've only carbed up around workout days, hoping I'd burn it off.

Concerning the spinning course 4 days, took a SS from last friday.



And another SS from a more normal resting day.



Probably do too much protein.

I might have had the keto flu some weeks ago. Lots of rolling migraine type headaches?

About goals. Right now athletic performance is important, since I'm taking exam in a few weeks. Secondly I would say fat loss. I don't care about muscles too much, only do some strength to not lose too much LBM.

I feel greater than ever, and can push myself towards things I never dreamed about 3-4 years ago when started.

I'm just a curious person and like to know why things work, hehe.
Ty for posing the questions that my mud-brain needed to ask:)
I understand now that whether I'm in ketosis or not is a journey of trial and error. My body will tell me the truth better than the ketostix I bought today.

Edit: Oops big pics. Sorry never done it before on new MFP.

deansdad101

Foamroller wrote: »

F 43 yrs, 61 kg (9 kg lost)

I'm doing a lot of cardio. 2-3x a week with hard WO and walk/run on my no gym days. I've been doing fairly low carb 50-100 g the past 3 weeks or so.

So... I summon you low-carb vets, teach a noob how to do it:)...or point me in the right directions pls.

Oh, btw another question. Last week I participated in a practical course to become a certified spinning instructor. We did a total of +11 hours on the bike within 4 days (thur-sun). Most of those were fairly low intensity (65-75%) But I reckon about 2.5-3 hours of those were 80-87% and maybe 15 minutes max were in 88-95% oxygen intake. Reached 95% twice.

On sunday my muscles were totally shot and my bum sore. But my energy level was high! I didn't carb crash or feel any dizzyness. Had a small apple, 2 plums and 100g sweet potato each day. What stopped me was my muscles, not energy level. I was pretty sure I have had too much carbs to be in ketosis. But could I be wrong?

Edit: I'm reading Phinney and Volek atm. Tried to search a bit around on reddit. Leafed through the FAQ.
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

I also try to keep my macros LCHF in check using this calc:
http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

Foam;

Last things first:
-The calc you are using is as good as any for a "starting point" but that's all it is. The "fine tuning" is up to you.
-As you probably know, P&V have two books. Art & Science (first one) gets deep in the woods with science and detail, and the second, "Performance" is shorter, less general detail, but a focus on NK and "performance" athletes (as opposed to the run of the mill "social" exerciser). Clearly you would fall in this category.

You didn't say (or I missed it) which one you are currently reading but I'd encourage you to read BOTH, A&S first, then "Performance".

As SLJ explained, there truly ARE wide variations among individuals as to number of carbs, proteins, percent fats, even total cals, required to reach the state of NK (nutritional ketosis).

On a forum like this we can acknowledge that fact but at the same time pretty much have to talk in terms of "generalizations" that apply to "most" folks.

So here are are couple (which may or may not apply directly to you).

First, it's essential that everyone be on the same page, terminology wise.
NK is the state where one's body has essentially switched from utilizing carbs as its primary energy source, to using fats - both nutritional and body fats.

Next, NK requires blood ketone levels in the 0.5mml to 3.0 range which can only be confirmed (positively) by blood testing (NOT urine or breath). "Metal mouth", bad breath, carb flu, or shiny hair are indicators that one's ketone levels have risen to some degree but they are NOT a "guarantee" that one is "in ketosis".

Most, (including P&V), advocate that one NOT engage in (or continue) a high energy exercise program UNTIL they are fully NK adapted (mostly because during adaptation your body is adjusting to the switch which takes time).

Full adaptation requires a "minimum" of 3-4 weeks at carbs levels consistently low enough (which is where the <20 number comes from as SLJ explained).

A one day "cheat" will almost certainly kick an adapted person "out" and return to fully adapted state will normally require at least 2-3 days (yes, it varies but the only way to know for sure is to blood test ketone body levels.)

So, while it's "possible" that you were adapted prior to last week's exercise marathon - it's more probable that you were not (just not enough time, combined with the excessive levels of exercise during the transition).

If so, you were not enjoying the full benefits that NK provides and kind of in "no man's land" between carb energy and fat energy. If "close", the carb feed (even though relatively moderate), likely broke the proverbial camel's back.

With the schedule you've described it's obvious that altering it for a month or so (to accommodate reduced exercise levels) AND adhering to the strictures of the "textbook" adaptation process probably can't coexist so something is going to have to give.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to reach NK without cutting back on your routine (it isn't) but it's highly probable that it will take much longer to do so,

So, IMO, you face a dilemma - is it "worth" altering your schedule in order to arrive at NK sooner (and then be able to reap the rewards), OR not?

Might be it's not even possible for reasons of your own but if it is, it's a decision only you can make and, unfortunately there are no "guarantees" (and really no way to know if it was the "right" choice or not....sorry).

Foamroller

"Peed in pink " this morning...tra-la-la (john hughes, anyone?)

Which is a positive surprise, reading your careful responses slj and dean.

I had 300 g of pickled gherkins and onions, 10 g spelt crackers and 2 small plums yesterday as my carby treats.

Maybe all that intense workout just burn the carbs away? I confess, I also had 300g of rice 1 week ago, after all that exhausting cycling.

I'm testing the boundaries, today I took a packet of my fav ramen. Maybe do a light run later tonight. Will be interesting to see if that knocks me out of ketosis.

@dean. I'm reading the art and science first. I like to dive into research. I'll prioritize athletic performance for now. Only 7.6 kg away from goal anyway. Maybe even taking a mini break from hardcore dieting is good for a week or two:)

Ty both for your very informative answers:) it's gonna be so fun and interesting to learn more about this!

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

If short term goal for you is performance, go for a carb load especially if you are new to Keto. Nutritional Ketosis and fat adaption are two different beasts all together. You can easily get in to Nutritional Ketosis, it takes several weeks to get fat adapted during exercise. The book by Dr Phinny and Dr Volek is a good basic start, however you might want to take a look at Dr. Peter Atia's blog eatingacademy.com. He took the Keto metabolism and athletic performance to a new level. Here is a good video summarizing some of the experiments he did with lots of data on how Keto can be advantaged metabolic state. Most of his data used was from bike rides.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwvcrA7oe8

When it comes to exercise, the intensity usually dictates what fuel (carbs or fats) will be used during the exercise. If you are just starting Keto, body will most likely switch to Carbs around 50% Vo2 max HR levels. This can be easily measured by RER or RQ to see what you are burning by wearing a mask and riding a bike or running on a treadmill. If you are starting Keto, it might take few weeks for your body to adapt to burning fat at higher intensities.

This is data from my own personal experiments, I usually don't like to preach theories from books and blogs. When I started Keto, my body would switch to predominantly carbs around HR of 98 ( measured by wearing a mask). No wonder I couldn't work out for first 4 weeks, when I tried running a mile in week 5, I could barely run half a mile. I didnt carb load because my focus was getting my body data adapted in long term. It took around 3 months for my body to use fat as fuel till HR of 130. However after 4-5 months, my body was using predominantly fat till 168 (86% of Vo2 max). Only around 93% Vo2 Max, my body was 100% dependent on the carbs. Why is this important? I recover faster when I don't carb load. I ran like 5 Half Marathons in 5 consecutive weeks ( finishing 3rd in one race) and some of those races in a 24 hrs fasted state and drinking only water during the races. I don't run much these days except an occasional half marathon but I do lift 1.5-2 times my body weight twice a day on some weeks. My friends who are high carb think that I am juicing on steroids.
Regarding measuring with Ketone sticks, its pretty useless, get a blood meter for free and buy some strips if the performance and NK is important for you. You can be in and out of ketosis depending on the carbs, activity level and intensity. I used to get kicked out of ketosis after a HIIT initially even when the carbs were low. I stayed in deep NK even after eating around 200g of carbs after a race. I don't like to carb load but if I wanted, I could eat carbs after a long exercise and stay in NK.

deansdad101

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus wrote: »

If short term goal for you is performance, go for a carb load especially if you are new to Keto. Nutritional Ketosis and fat adaption are two different beasts all together. You can easily get in to Nutritional Ketosis, it takes several weeks to get fat adapted during exercise. The book by Dr Phinny and Dr Volek is a good basic start, however you might want to take a look at Dr. Peter Atia's blog eatingacademy.com. He took the Keto metabolism and athletic performance to a new level. Here is a good video summarizing some of the experiments he did with lots of data on how Keto can be advantaged metabolic state. Most of his data used was from bike rides.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwvcrA7oe8

When it comes to exercise, the intensity usually dictates what fuel (carbs or fats) will be used during the exercise. If you are just starting Keto, body will most likely switch to Carbs around 50% Vo2 max HR levels. This can be easily measured by RER or RQ to see what you are burning by wearing a mask and riding a bike or running on a treadmill. If you are starting Keto, it might take few weeks for your body to adapt to burning fat at higher intensities.

This is data from my own personal experiments, I usually don't like to preach theories from books and blogs. When I started Keto, my body would switch to predominantly carbs around HR of 98 ( measured by wearing a mask). No wonder I couldn't work out for first 4 weeks, when I tried running a mile in week 5, I could barely run half a mile. I didnt carb load because my focus was getting my body data adapted in long term. It took around 3 months for my body to use fat as fuel till HR of 130. However after 4-5 months, my body was using predominantly fat till 168 (86% of Vo2 max). Only around 93% Vo2 Max, my body was 100% dependent on the carbs. Why is this important? I recover faster when I don't carb load. I ran like 5 Half Marathons in 5 consecutive weeks ( finishing 3rd in one race) and some of those races in a 24 hrs fasted state and drinking only water during the races. I don't run much these days except an occasional half marathon but I do lift 1.5-2 times my body weight twice a day on some weeks. My friends who are high carb think that I am juicing on steroids.
Regarding measuring with Ketone sticks, its pretty useless, get a blood meter for free and buy some strips if the performance and NK is important for you. You can be in and out of ketosis depending on the carbs, activity level and intensity. I used to get kicked out of ketosis after a HIIT initially even when the carbs were low. I stayed in deep NK even after eating around 200g of carbs after a race. I don't like to carb load but if I wanted, I could eat carbs after a long exercise and stay in NK.

Leon;

Nothing beats an n=1 analysis with real "factual" (accurately measured) results - thank you for sharing yours.

While I might take slight exception to your distinction between the terms fat adapted and NK that's probably mostly an artifact of the general confusion (and indeed lack of specific definition) of much of the terminology -even among the "experts".

The only point I would add to your excellent description is that it applies (for the most part) to those, like yourself, who engage in exercise rigor far exceeding that which "most" of us either can, or would endure.

93% Vo2 Max, even for a fleeting moment, would be my final breath <G>

Foamroller

Ty leonidas for the tips:) I already watched Attias vids and browsing his blog sometimes. But since I don't have the money for extensive lab testing, it's a bit limited what I can learn from it since his and some other blogs are very technology driven in order to get precise measurements. And to be honest I understand only bits and pieces when it becomes too detailed.
Example: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.no/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00Z&max-results=24

Are there any other sites that are occupied with NK and exercise that are a happy medium between full out medical and noob friendly? Like a site for "inter" for lack of a better word.

Was very interesting hearing about your N=1 results. I think when it comes down to it, we'll all have to test things for ourselves on own body. But reading about other experiences can give good ideas or indications of how things might work at individual level.

Ad stix. Yea, I already guessed they can become useless or unreliable at some point. The pharmacy guy downstairs happily informed me a "diabetes expert" would come next day, so I could ask my questions about measuring blood ketones there. Turns out the expert was a deer in headlights medical sales rep selling a particular brand of glucose meters... I'm not even sure if I can buy a blood ketones meter where I live. Sometimes living outside the EU is very cumbersome.

Right now I'm taking a diet break during instructor exam. I was loosing weight fine with IF and low carbing. I'll continue testing the keto diet and find my carb thresholds after exam:)

@deansdad. % of vo2 max are individual fitness lvl. They just spoke about this on the instructor course. Untrained people can have lactate threshold at very low absolute heartrate, like 130. As that person trains their cardiovascular system, their individual max heart rate stays basically same if measured correctly (not counting variables like temperature, daily mood, caffeine, medication etc), BUT the lactate threshold increases with sustained and higher intensity. Thereby you feel you can "do more, getting fitter, stronger". Whether polarized intensity or high volume of high but under lactate threshold is best for progress is up for debate and probably sports specific.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0101796

Personally I started very slow. As my baseline fitness became better I grew faster with a combo of HIIT and LISS, ergo a polarized pattern. Following the principles of incremental changes in "longer, faster, harder".

Lactate threshold is highly trainable! In other words your 93% is not comparable to my 93%
And although I'm repeating myself: I started regular harder exercise for the first time in my life after 40 years old from completely sedentary. It's never too late.

edited: for better clarity.