Question

angelic843

As a LCHF person, do you pay any attention at all to caloric intake?

Right now I am exclusively watching my carb count and macro percentages.
(attempting to keeping my carbs at or under 20%, shooting for 30 grams of protein per meal)

I am very new to this way of eating. I listen to the Jimmy Moore show, but his topics are very advanced and specific so I am just looking for a bit of guidance.

I have eliminated bread, pasta, rice, potatoes and sweets. (Minus a slip)

I have been at this for about two weeks now. I am morbidly obese so I wonder if that plays in to what I should be eating versus someone who has less to lose.

Thanks for any help, guidance, or opinions.

Angela

MelRC117

Hi Angela,
I bet if you tracked your calories, you would find that you are under your calories.

Low carb is basically a way of restricting your calories. The benefit though (or at least for most people) is when eating high fat/mod protein/low carb you feel full longer and eat less. (And honestly, not eating things like Little Debbies anymore since I could polish off a whole box in a day if I wanted to. Not eating those things at all is easier for me than moderation).

The first "round" of LCHF eating for me, I had no clue why it worked, I lost weight, and all I did was watch carbs. I was losing so I didn't have a need to watch calories and I didn't even think about it because I didn't really understand how low carb "worked".

TBH, if you are new to this way of eating and are just getting the hang of counting carbs and what foods to eat and you're losing, I would say not to focus so much on calories right at this moment. However, once you get a hang of it you might want to start logging calories too. If you stop losing or as you get closer to your goal weight, you will have less room for error and seeing the whole picture will make it easier to figure out why you're gaining/stalling.

deansdad101

angelic843 wrote: »

As a LCHF person, do you pay any attention at all to caloric intake?

Right now I am exclusively watching my carb count and macro percentages.
(attempting to keeping my carbs at or under 20%, shooting for 30 grams of protein per meal)

I am very new to this way of eating. I listen to the Jimmy Moore show, but his topics are very advanced and specific so I am just looking for a bit of guidance.

I have eliminated bread, pasta, rice, potatoes and sweets. (Minus a slip)

I have been at this for about two weeks now. I am morbidly obese so I wonder if that plays in to what I should be eating versus someone who has less to lose.

Thanks for any help, guidance, or opinions.

Angela

Ang;

Eventually you will probably reach a point where "counting" cals becomes a non-issue BUT that is NOT to say that you can just ignore them completely - they will always be a part of the "mix".

If for no other reason than that in order to calculate your macro %'s you must first set a cal target. (just one example and very much oversimplified)

Your diary is not open for others to view and you don't mention the "details" we would need to reply specifically (BMR, TDEE, cal target, macros etc) but at first glance I would suggest that your 30g protein target is likely way too low.

I'm not in the "more" protein camp but 30g probably is well below your MDR. (unless there is a medical reason).

If you haven't already, go here and get your basic "numbers" then report back with the results and we'll have a look and be better able to offer suggestions.
tinyurl.com/a2bk945

angelic843

I opened my diary.

sljohnson1207

I think calories are important for a few reasons:

You want to be able to eat as much as possible and lose weight at the rate you want to.
To calculate your macro percentages, you have to know total calories.
To make sure you are not eating too little (below BMR).
If you have a real stall, you will have the information you need to make changes.

deansdad101

angelic843 wrote: »

I opened my diary.

Ang;

Where did your current cal/macro numbers come from?

Did you go to the calculator link above and if so, what did that suggest?

angelic843

My current macros were set based upon info I found online about what is considered low carb.

I did go to the sight you suggested, just havent updated them yet.

angelic843

I'll try to reset them tomorrow.

angelic843

My stats from the website you recommended are:

2682 for a deficit
50g Carbs
115g Protein
225g Fat

I adjusted my goals toward those figures.

Thanks for the recommendation.

deansdad101

angelic843 wrote: »

My stats from the website you recommended are:

2682 for a deficit
50g Carbs
115g Protein
225g Fat

I adjusted my goals toward those figures.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Ang;

That looks MUCH better.

Your "job" now is to try your best to come as close as you can to them - every day.

It's going to be a very big transition for your body (metabolically) so don't get discouraged if you "miss" once in a while and expect that during the switch you'll likely face some unpleasantness - it's totally normal. (Read other threads for the "typical" things folks experience.

If you find it just too difficult to cut to 50 carbs/day right out of gate, change your goal to something less restrictive (maybe 100-125) and focus on hitting that EVERY day. Once you can, reduce it by 10-20 and when comfortable there, reduce it again until you get to 50.

One quick observation - keep an eye on your sodium intake, you have a tendency to go quite a bit over on occasion. General guideline is 3-5000k/day (which is significantly higher than USDA guidelines but as your progress on LCHF you will require higher than "normal" levels to replace that which is lost.) As long as there are no medical issues that dictate lower levels, you'll be fine at 3-5k.

Remember it's the "end game" that matters, NOT whether you lose (or gain) 2 pounds today or tomorrow.

For now, don't get hung up on "am I in keto....", or measuring with the urine strips, it's basically a waste of time and money and unreliable (at best).

Becoming adapted is your goal and it takes at least 4-6 weeks (for most) so focus on what counts - sticking to your daily goals.

Read through the back threads on this group and take a look at other's diaries for ideas on how they do it (food/menu wise), and answers to many of the questions you'll have along the way.

Anything that's not clear or you still have questions about - ASK. There are many folks here who have traveled the road before you and are more than willing to help in any way they can.

angelic843

Yeah sodium is an issue for me...too many convenience foods! I will keep working at it.

Thanks for the guidance everyone! (Especially DeansDad)

marye2021

Thanks for posting Ang! I have been scouring the web trying to figure out if I need to count my calories as religiously as I did on a LF diet... (obvi still tracking all food eaten so I know how many carbs etc I've ingested)

Still working to get the hang of this-- I used the keto calculator that someone suggested in another thread and that is where I got my numbers but I still feel unsure if I am doing this 'correctly'? Only day 4 of lchf for me so I know I need to give it more time ( like 4 weeks more)

Missing my bananas like crazy

deansdad101

marye2021 wrote: »

Thanks for posting Ang! I have been scouring the web trying to figure out if I need to count my calories as religiously as I did on a LF diet... (obvi still tracking all food eaten so I know how many carbs etc I've ingested)

Still working to get the hang of this-- I used the keto calculator that someone suggested in another thread and that is where I got my numbers but I still feel unsure if I am doing this 'correctly'? Only day 4 of lchf for me so I know I need to give it more time ( like 4 weeks more)

Missing my bananas like crazy

Mary;

You're doing fine - "numbers" (cals/macros) are certainly in the "ballpark" and like Ang you now just need to concentrate on hitting those targets.

You will want to "adjust" them some as you move along but for now it's more important that you focus on figuring out how (menu wise) to get there - the rest will come with time.

Quick glance (and NOT things you need to do tomorrow but rather keep in mind for down the road:(assuming you are looking toward actual NK/FA (nutritional ketosis/Fat Adapted)

1. Lower protein % to closer to 20% (looks like you did today) - 40-70g or 0.5g/#LBM
2. Increase fat % when reducing carbs &/or protein
3. Keep an eye on sodium (3-5k/day)
4. Eliminate sugar (in all its forms, grains, starches, refined "anything"- flour, rice, etc)

What I would do now is stop logging "exercise cals".
Exercise has been shown to have little (in any at all) effect on weight loss in general and isn't recommended at all beyond "light" when becoming adapted to LCHF/NK.

All it's really doing (logging) right now is confusing what you are seeing in your tracking (by changing cal target and macro %'s.

This is NOT to say that exercise isn't beneficial, IT IS, but for "fitness", not for diet. So walk some in the meantime, once you are adapted go back to whatever is your pleasure.

Next, (and others will disagree so you'll have to decide for yourself), I'm of the "camp" that says to count TOTAL carbs (not NET) - especially when initially working toward adaptation.

The "debate" (total vs net) is one that has gone on for ages and there are good points on each side. In one sense, it really doesn't matter because if at whatever level you are (N or T) you are not moving toward adaptation it's going to have to be lowered so if that number is 20 net or 30 total (for example) the solution is the same.

That the CDC recently changed its recommendations to subtracting only 50% of fiber and sugar alcohols (instead of the 100% previously advised) says something though.

Can't help with the bananas though. (I miss them too - make an awesome "smoothie")

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I don't count calories on a low carb diet. The calorie in calorie out theory is incomplete at best and useless at worst. Just keep eating to satiety and listen to your body. I can gain easily on a low fat diet eating 1800-200 cals, while losing 2-3 lbs a week eating 2200-2300 cals. Keep the Protein to 1g / Kg of weight, Carbs around 5 % and fat 70-80%. After few weeks, you can increase carbs if you like to. First 3-4 weeks is the toughest part of a low carb diet, after few weeks it gets lot easier.

cindytw

So calories DO matter after a point. You go from a high carb diet to suddenly low carb...you are going to lose a lot the first week and 2. After that, you have to start looking at calories and macros again...so that you keep low carb and high fat and work with what your particular body likes in ratios. If you keep high fat you can work the other 2 macros and be satiated and fine while doing so.

deansdad101

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus wrote: »

I don't count calories on a low carb diet. The calorie in calorie out theory is incomplete at best and useless at worst. Just keep eating to satiety and listen to your body. I can gain easily on a low fat diet eating 1800-200 cals, while losing 2-3 lbs a week eating 2200-2300 cals. Keep the Protein to 1g / Kg of weight, Carbs around 5 % and fat 70-80%. After few weeks, you can increase carbs if you like to. First 3-4 weeks is the toughest part of a low carb diet, after few weeks it gets lot easier.

cindytw wrote: »

So calories DO matter after a point. You go from a high carb diet to suddenly low carb...you are going to lose a lot the first week and 2. After that, you have to start looking at calories and macros again...so that you keep low carb and high fat and work with what your particular body likes in ratios. If you keep high fat you can work the other 2 macros and be satiated and fine while doing so.

Cindy/Leon;

My "take" on it (currently and subject to change based on new info) lies pretty much dead smack in the middle between each of yours.

I start from the position that "almost" everything each of you have said is TRUE (for "you" and some proportion of the overall population of LCHF'ers)

I concur that CICO is "...incomplete at best and useless at worst" - but in a somewhat different context. It's not (IMO) that absolute total cals don't matter (they do), but rather the "your daily goal" or "you will lose x by if you consume Y", numbers generated by the various calculators are so wildly inaccurate (and subject to individual variation) as to be essentially useless - EXCEPT as a "benchmark".

Leon's example, "I can gain easily on a low fat diet eating 1800-200 cals, while losing 2-3 lbs a week eating 2200-2300 cals", makes perfect sense to me.

It has been confirmed in a number of controlled studies that a LCHF "diet" DOES produce greater weight loss at a fixed cal intake (controlled) level than does the SAD (high carb) diet. His example simply takes it one step "higher" showing that even WITH an increase in cals (in his case), the hypothesis is confirmed.

BUT - the operative phrase is "in his case". I would argue that his is not "typical" of the majority of the group members here (or even of LCHF'ers in general), if for no other reason than the "extreme" (by comparison) levels of exercise intensity and dedication. So while I have no question that "his" results apply to "him", I"m not sure they would hold up for most (at least to the same degree).

I agree with the protein recommendation although I'd go a "small" step further and suggest that 0.5-0.6g/# of LBM (rather than total body weight) "might" prove to be a better recommendation for a "starting point" for those new to LCHF and NK/FA. More clinical testing needs to be done and it's a relatively minor difference but the "point" is that we have been conditioned to believe that we "require" MUCH higher protein intake levels (primarily by the exercise and sports "experts" and vendors of supplements) than current research supports.

We (Leon & I) disagree on the need to "count" cal intake though. It's important to recognize the distinction between "counting" (as in considering the number an absolutely critical "target"), vs. "tracking" (logging daily intake).

"Counting" is, as I think we agree, an exercise in futility if for no other reason than that the calculator produced numbers are so inaccurate.

"Tracking", however, IS important if for no other reason than that one cannot accurately compute macro %'s without doing it. One can argue that once someone has determined their carb and protein tolerance numbers in absolute terms (i.e. 17g carbs/55g protein) all that's left is fat and that's true, BUT, without a cal number it's impossible to "know" the fat %. (or if total cal intake is "reasonable" considering BMR/TDEE/etc).

If one considers the "cal intake" number as not only a "moving target" but also important ONLY (or at least primarily) in RELATIVE terms it can provide a great deal of benefit for those attempting to determine their individual levels of carb and protein tolerance.

It matters not if the cal intake number is 2000 or 2500 or even if the number is "right" or not. What matters is that if one is maintaining "X" cal intake and not seeing the results (either in BOHB numbers OR weight loss goals), something has to change and the cal intake number is one of those things (along with macro %'s, and maybe even more importantly macro composition) to consider.

All of which is a long winded way to say that, YES Cindy, I do agree that "...calories DO matter" - just not in the way that the "lemmings" (NOT YOU) use the statement to end the discussion when they reach their level understanding (which for the most part ends at "a cal is a cal" and "1st law of thermodynamics".

Recent research has demonstrated, quite convincingly (at least to me) that while LCHF (but more specifically Fat Adapted NK) is significantly "better" than SAD (for our purposes) -

FA/NK, combined with calorie restriction, is "MORE BETTER" <g>

Some (probably Leon and others) will argue that calorie restriction just "comes naturally" when adapted and that is not only "true" (IMO) but, one of the major benefits. I'd argue that for those beginning, or not actually fully fat adapted (and verifiably so), cal "tracking" is essential.

There are other reasons why it (tracking) "matters" of course, but in this context, I firmly believe that "newbies" (especially) should not be encouraged to "not" track (or that it doesn't matter).

olivebeanhealthy

Hypothetically; you have met your macros for the day, and you are going to overeat *something*, is fat the best macro to overeat, as it won't affect ketosis?

deansdad101

metta4 wrote: »

Hypothetically; you have met your macros for the day, and you are going to overeat *something*, is fat the best macro to overeat, as it won't affect ketosis?

Met;

Yes

"Hypothetically", AND assuming the other macros are correct - but as a general rule, yes.

If by "overeat" you mean exceeding you cal intake goal, AND if you know that number to be "correct" - then it's "best" to just NOT have whatever it is that puts you over.

If it's a question of not having reached satiety - add the fat.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

cindytw wrote: »

So calories DO matter after a point. You go from a high carb diet to suddenly low carb...you are going to lose a lot the first week and 2. After that, you have to start looking at calories and macros again...so that you keep low carb and high fat and work with what your particular body likes in ratios. If you keep high fat you can work the other 2 macros and be satiated and fine while doing so.

Depends on individual but human body doesn't know about calories nor is a furnace burning fixed calories. Macros can be very important in a LCHF, I can gain on a 2000 cal diet but can maintain on a 4000 cal diet if I can keep my protein under 100 g and carbs under 50. Calories matter is like saying you need to score more points to win a game. The team has to score different number of points to win another game. The problem I have is with a fixed number of calories guessed from an online calculator. The first instinct for human body is survival, you eat less and work out more, the body tries to preserve and then you stop losing weight because body burns less. There are lot of folks who are stuck even with deficits on a low carb calorie counting. If the math worked every one would lose weight. The bottom line is try and experiment what works for you. I personally trust my body to be the guide, if I am hungry I will eat till I am full. It doesn't matter if I eat 3k or 4k calories.
Every one talks about first law of thermodynamics on calorie in and calorie out but conveniently ignore second law of thermodynamics which answers more questions.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

If all these numbers are overwhelming, read the material from Dr Eric Westman. He just lists foods you can eat and what you need to avoid. Just eat till your full from those list. It's a very simple but effective way to lose weight.

olivebeanhealthy

deansdad101 wrote: »

metta4 wrote: »

Hypothetically; you have met your macros for the day, and you are going to overeat *something*, is fat the best macro to overeat, as it won't affect ketosis?

Met;

Yes

"Hypothetically", AND assuming the other macros are correct - but as a general rule, yes.

If by "overeat" you mean exceeding you cal intake goal, AND if you know that number to be "correct" - then it's "best" to just NOT have whatever it is that puts you over.

If it's a question of not having reached satiety - add the fat.

Thank you!

tq33702

Maybe you'll like this:
Eat Fat And Grow Slim
http://tinyurl.com/ou8n2le
And these vids:
http://tinyurl.com/oc7w3mm
Welcome to LCHF!

deansdad101

tq33702 wrote: »

Maybe you'll like this:
Eat Fat And Grow Slim
http://tinyurl.com/ou8n2le
And these vids:
http://tinyurl.com/oc7w3mm
Welcome to LCHF!

TQ;

Only looked at the first video (EF&GS) which appears to be at least 6 years old.

Unless he's changed his opinion (and advice) regarding saturated fats in the interim (he's against),
I'd find another source to recommend. There are PLENTY of them out there.

The "science" is far from settled on any number of issues but on this one (sat fats) it's not only compelling but approaching consensus (if not already there) among the top researchers.

Saturated fats need NOT be AVOIDED - in fact they "should" (must?) be included.

BUTTER ON.......

tq33702

angelic843 wrote: »

As a LCHF person, do you pay any attention at all to caloric intake?

Right now I am exclusively watching my carb count and macro percentages.
(attempting to keeping my carbs at or under 20%, shooting for 30 grams of protein per meal)

I am very new to this way of eating. I listen to the Jimmy Moore show, but his topics are very advanced and specific so I am just looking for a bit of guidance.

Thanks for any help, guidance, or opinions.

Angela

Hello, Angela!
Besides the book,
Eat Fat And Grow Slim
written in 1958 and 1960:
http://tinyurl.com/ou8n2le

There are many more...
Gary Taubes; Phinney and Volek;
Eric Westman; Weston A Price, etc.

And the Reddit Keto FAQ:
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

Here's another vid from uTube:
Eat More Fat? -- Amazing Results
http://tinyurl.com/kk8njr7

I had a bunch of boiled bacon over
the day yesterday...
just the right macros for me:
Fat:70% Protein: 29% Carbs: >1%

Fat satisfied the appetite, kept me
warm and happy.

Congrats on getting thru the naysayers
to get here, the best success to you!

khemistrygirl

I would listen to what deansdad101 has to say for long-term planning. My general impression is that very obese women and most men can get away with eating simply <30g carbs and <100g protein and have fantastic losses at first without calorie counting. The general trend I've seen (both personally and across the many low carb forums) is that most women (and some men) get to a point where they may stop losing if don't watch the overall calorie count. More often than not, what causes stalls or gains is more about "cheats," "slips," and carb creep. It's very easy to get a lot of hidden carbs from eating out too often as well. I would focus on planning meals, counting carbs, and keeping it simple for the first 6 months if you have a lot to lose. Ultimately, the biggest concern is jumping off the wagon rather than fine tuning the macros at first.

khemistrygirl

Oh and I find the <100g protein easily done - I can have eggs at breakfast, chicken at lunch, and steak/fish for dinner and still be under this number. I don't often even have that much protein. Some have to watch it more closely because they are used to large portion sizes of protein. So, with that in mind, it may be possible to be initially successful simply counting carbs alone.

sickandfat

Hi to all, I have enjoyed reading all the ideas here and I have not been doing LCHF long enough to really add any good advice.

I am going to a diet doctor and he says that everyone is different and many have health problems and have to take meds. for their health problems. All of which can play a part into adjusting to a LCHF diet. He is a big fan of Phinney and Volek and Eric Westman. He says that they are the real thing.

I have been on a LCHF diet now for about 2 months and have only lost 12 lbs. so far. To me that is a whole lot slower than I thought I would lose.

I had read about people going LCHF and lost a bunch of weight really fast?

My doctor says that it will work but can be a slower trip for some to get there and in the long run may be better to lose at a slower pace.

Everyone is different and everyone is on different meds. everyone is at different ages also.

So all I can add at this time is, DO NOT GIVE UP, I am told that it will work.

All of you have such great ideas and I am so glad to be a part of this group. Thanks to all of you for being there for everyone.

deansdad101

sickandfat wrote: »

Hi to all, I have enjoyed reading all the ideas here and I have not been doing LCHF long enough to really add any good advice.

I am going to a diet doctor and he says that everyone is different and many have health problems and have to take meds. for their health problems. All of which can play a part into adjusting to a LCHF diet. He is a big fan of Phinney and Volek and Eric Westman. He says that they are the real thing.

I have been on a LCHF diet now for about 2 months and have only lost 12 lbs. so far. To me that is a whole lot slower than I thought I would lose.

I had read about people going LCHF and lost a bunch of weight really fast?

My doctor says that it will work but can be a slower trip for some to get there and in the long run may be better to lose at a slower pace.

Everyone is different and everyone is on different meds. everyone is at different ages also.

So all I can add at this time is, DO NOT GIVE UP, I am told that it will work.

All of you have such great ideas and I am so glad to be a part of this group. Thanks to all of you for being there for everyone.

S&F;

12 pounds in 2 months (8 weeks) is 1.5#/week.

That's very near the MAX "recommended" in ANY diet (and EXCELLENT results in your case.

The difference is - you are NOT JUST "losing weight" but the chances of you keeping it off (if you stay faithful to LCHF) are MANY TIMES greater than those on any of the "miracle diets".

Not to mention that as important as weight reduction is - it's the glucose/insulin numbers that REALLY matter.

Most recent estimates are the 95% of those on any flavor of CICO/exercise "wonder" diet - FAIL to sustain past 12 months.

So, when they trumpet the "I lost 100 pounds in 2 days...." nonsense you need not say anything except (under your breath) -
"Come see me in a year and we'll talk".

Keep up the good work and remember - slow and steady wins........

sickandfat

Thank you so much deansdad, You made my day! You have helped me so much to understand LCHF. I can't wait to maybe one day to be off the Metformin for my sugar. I am trying hard to get more healthy. My doctor said that he will do a blood test again around Dec. or Jan. I am really looking forward to seeing those results. Hope they are better than when I first started. I am getting more used to a slower weight loss. After all if this works for me, then it will be a lifetime change. My fingers are crossed. Ha! Ha!