Newbie - Morbidly Obese seeking reassurance
archanajoyce
Posts: 219 Member
Hi.. I'm morbidly obese and didn't even know what C25K meant until a few weeks ago.
in Jan 2014 I weighed 120 kg... Currently at 94 kg.
I'm only 2 days in. At least I didn't require CPR (very nearly did but miraculously completed the 30 mins). I don't care about people looking at me or saying stuff. Just terrified of Week 2
This forum seems to have people at all fitness levels. Just looking for some reassurance from people who, like me, have tried this program in spite of being morbidly obese.
What were your major challenges?
What were your small victories?
in Jan 2014 I weighed 120 kg... Currently at 94 kg.
I'm only 2 days in. At least I didn't require CPR (very nearly did but miraculously completed the 30 mins). I don't care about people looking at me or saying stuff. Just terrified of Week 2
This forum seems to have people at all fitness levels. Just looking for some reassurance from people who, like me, have tried this program in spite of being morbidly obese.
What were your major challenges?
What were your small victories?
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I am on day 2 today of wk 1. I do have issues with being seen and embarrassed by my weight/size, but as odd as I feel doing this ...I want it real bad. It is not easy for me and I'm sure there are others who feel the same . Not only do I struggle with my personal feelings , I am so bad out of shape. I do feel more energized already and that's a good motivator , reading these boards helps also. When I said I'm so out of shape, what I mean is I've never been in shape . I know I will never have a perfect little body but I would like to feel comfortable in mine and these days I am not. I need to lose 30 lbs and I've always wanted to run. So today I can say In my lifetime I have weighed 8LBS and I have weighed 318LBS with many lbs up and down between the two, but I have never learned to swim, or dance, and I have never been a runner. These are 3 things I have always wanted to do and yesterday was my day 1. Good luck to you and to me, we can do this. I for one am stepping way out of my mental comfort zone , I physically don't want to stay there anymore.0
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archanajoyce wrote: »What were your major challenges?
I wasn't all that much lighter than you when I started C25K; 190lbs, though I'm quite tall.
I wouldn't put it as challenges but I did find that progress was quite rapid, although my deficit was quite large which became more of an issue for me as I lacked energy.
The main thing is probably to couple your running with some resistance training, to help protect your joints. Bodyweight work should be enough, it worked for me
I think the main thing for me was that I fairly quickly stopped worrying about my weight and started focussing on my running performance as a motivator.
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Im going to start the c25k in the morning and I am terrified! Last year on November 24th I ran my first 5k without any official training. I haven't run since that day!!! I had the flu on the day of the race and I completed it anyway. I was very sore the next day and could not move. I stayed in bed and on Rx meds for 3 days. All of that being said, I think that I hit a mental Pain block during that time even though the pain was not from running it was from running in the cool weather and rain while having the flu. I just want to run again and this time I am going to actually train for it and take my time to fall in love with the sport. I wish everyone well on the journeys to becoming all that you want to be
p.s.... I'm 5'1.5 and I weigh 219.8 lbs. way up from last year but not afraid of the challenge
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Fantastic y'all. You are so inspiring Let's do this!!! 0
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It sounds terrifying, I get it. I'm on week 3 and I'm terrified of week 4
But your body does amazing things! You might think you can't, and it's all completely psychological. If you just try it, I think you'll be surprised as to what your body can do. When I first started I was like there's no way I can run for 3 minutes let alone 8 minutes, or 20. But when I got to the 3 minute portion I just said to myself, try it - see where you get with it. I will admit my first 3 minute run was waaaaay stronger than my second and third one but I think I am going to repeat week 3 next week to ensure I feel comfy with it before moving on.
I think it's mostly psychological, you've got this and you can do it. I am only running at 3.8 miles/hour right now - and that's slow BUT I'm getting there and I'm doing it. You can do it, you will get there Just have faith in the process and keep going. 0 -
Good going. Remember every extra step from the time before is progress. Just remember to keep it slow to avoid injury.
Well done on getting this far.0 -
I was worried about the same thing...I weigh about 230. I don't push it, I go pretty slow. And yes, I am the fattest person on the Dreadmill, but rather than be bummed about it and self conscious, I'm proud of myself for doing it! My knee started bothering me so I'm taking it easy, but doing some swimming and elliptical until It feels better0
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archanajoyce wrote: »Hi.. I'm morbidly obese and didn't even know what C25K meant until a few weeks ago.
in Jan 2014 I weighed 120 kg... Currently at 94 kg.
I'm only 2 days in. At least I didn't require CPR (very nearly did but miraculously completed the 30 mins). I don't care about people looking at me or saying stuff. Just terrified of Week 2
This forum seems to have people at all fitness levels. Just looking for some reassurance from people who, like me, have tried this program in spite of being morbidly obese.
What were your major challenges?
What were your small victories?
This morning I just finished W6D2 and still can't believe I will dare to run 25 minutes on Wednesday. I need to lose 100lb and I do feel that excess weight every day I run. I started the program on October 10 and repeated several days because I didn't feel ready to move on. You will feel (physically and mentally) when you are ready to move on to the next week. It is more important, especially when carrying so much additional weight, to make sure you don't get injured and the hips and knees are getting the needed time to adjust to it.
I signed up for my first 5K ever for January 31. I scheduled it so far ahead so that I can improve my speed and keep myself motivated to keep running and lose some of the weight. So far I lost 11lb and keep telling myself that the more weight I lose the easier will be to run.
I know it is hard but love coming back here to this forum and get motivated and keep going.
It feels good to know I am not alone and somewhere out there is someone like me who is struggling to keep focused and succeed.0 -
You've taken the biggest step by starting. Way to go!
The best words of advice I was given when I started was to take it slow. When you feel like giving up and walking, don't ......just slow down some more. Never worry about your speed.
I was overweight when I started and jiggled everywhere. I could barely do the 30 second run sessions but, by keeping it slow and staying on schedule, I managed it. My small victories were finishing each session successfully. That gave me energy and determination for the next session.
My major challenge was myself. The thought of running 30 minutes was so unbelievable to me that I didn't think I'd ever be able to do it. I had to stop thinking of the end of the program and just think about the session I was running.
Keep at it. Never give up. Keep it slow. You can do this.0 -
You've taken the biggest step by starting. Way to go!
My major challenge was myself. The thought of running 30 minutes was so unbelievable to me that I didn't think I'd ever be able to do it. I had to stop thinking of the end of the program and just think about the session I was running.
Keep at it. Never give up. Keep it slow. You can do this.
In complete agreement. Running for 30 mins seems so out of reach. Explanation: I'm a person, who at times, want to go from 0 to 60. I like to say I have no patience, but really thru the years I've learned that I have plenty patience. For certain things that is. However, when it comes to seeing results - I don't have much. Or at least like to think I don't have much patience. I can have started the program a couple days ago, and already want to be at the finish line. I get down and hard on myself for not being able to accomplish more. I don't give myself that time for growth and improvment - because I want to be able to achieve what a person should be able to do by the end of the program. So I have had to learn to ease up on myself, take a breather (or two) and just tell myself : "Let it go".
Now, that may seem a little odd at first glance, but it simply means that I need to let go of the image I have of what I should be able to do, or what I want to be able to do right now (vs giving myself time to complete the program and work my way up to that fitness level). I have to let go of the self-criticism and appreciate my efforts and accomplishments for where I am at now. Letting go of all the negative thoughts, and focusing on the task at hand and what my objectifs are: short-term goal, medium and long-term ones. Where am I now? where do I want to be in 1 month? what about 3 months from now? 6 months? 1 year? By setting goals and concentrating on the upcoming one, you experience victories along the way and you strive to improve yourself and keep moving forward.
Just last Friday, I ran for 10 mins without interruption. Certainly I wasn't running very fast, actually it was really a jog, because others would have been able to walk at the pace I was running/jogging. But that sort of comment, I've come to find is detrimental, as it is negative. why get down on myself about running/jogging more slowly than others would have? did I or did I not Jog/run for 10 mins straight without stopping? Yes. Yes I did. and you know what? I'm proud of that. and I will not take anything away from my effort. I know I worked hard to get there, and I should celebrate that victory.
Please do the same. Always keep your chin up, because every victory is worth celebrating.
I wish you all the best in your endeavours and I look forwad to sharing in your journey.
I still have a ways to go before being at my goal weight (much closer to my starting weight than I am of my goal weight) - so if you'd like to motivate and support one another along the way, please feel free to add me as friend and I'll be there, chugging you along as we set goals and reach for the skies.0 -
LOL! I still run slower than the average runner. I've come to realize that it's just the way things are going to be. BUT I'm running with decent form, I'm injury free and I'm having a good time at it. Best of all, I'M DOING IT!
Keep running and having fun (there's no such thing as "jogging"; it's all "running", regardless of speed. As long as both feet are off the ground at some point in your stride, it's "running"). 0 -
Keep running and having fun (there's no such thing as "jogging"; it's all "running", regardless of speed. As long as both feet are off the ground at some point in your stride, it's "running").
Thanks PaytraB!!!!
I like your definition of running (and there's no such thing as "jogging"). Sure is motivating. I'll try to say it to myself over and over, when I'm running (almost wrote "jogging" .... lol) and as you mention, "we are doing it!" and we are enjoying it.
ain't that the best feeling! I think so.
Keep up the great work and all the best!0 -
I'm just starting my 3rd year of running and I'm still a 5-7K runner (mostly 5K). My 5K time is about 38-40 minutes outside and 40-42 minutes on the treadmill.
I'm still scratching my head about the time difference on the treadmill because I can't seem to run faster on it and it feels like the same speed as running outdoors.....but I've been slower on the treadmill for 2 winters now, so I think it's got something to do with the treadmill. I've learned to take it all in stride, though, and just be happy that I'm running 3x a week......that's something I never thought I'd ever say.
No matter what, we can be proud that we're out there pounding the pavement or treadmill. We've done it; we're winners.0 -
very inspiring, thank you for sharing. today is wk 2 d2 for me and I'm loving it but have concerns as well. My knee is hurting with every step I take not to mention when I run/ jog. I am starting to wonder what its going to be like to run when the weather gets its coldest. I don't have access to a treadmill. any advice is welcome
![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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This morning I finished W6D3. I use Active C25K app in combination with Robert Ullrey's podcast and realized that the app run is 22 minutes and the podcast is for 25 minutes. So I just kept going for another 3 minutes. This makes me feel good about the runs next week but wish I could do something about the speed. During the first 5 minutes I was sure I could not make it but kept going and eventually got in my rhythm. At the end I could still run some more. Does that mean that I didn't challenge myself enough to go faster? Any suggestion is very appreciated.0
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carmenFL1560 wrote: »This morning I finished W6D3. I use Active C25K app in combination with Robert Ullrey's podcast and realized that the app run is 22 minutes and the podcast is for 25 minutes. So I just kept going for another 3 minutes. This makes me feel good about the runs next week but wish I could do something about the speed. During the first 5 minutes I was sure I could not make it but kept going and eventually got in my rhythm. At the end I could still run some more. Does that mean that I didn't challenge myself enough to go faster? Any suggestion is very appreciated.
For me, it's always hard at the beginning, but I eventually settle into a rhythm and get through it.
Speed will come, the more you run. Don't worry about speed. Right now, focus on finishing the runs, even if that means you are going at a slower pace.
Great job on finishing week 6!
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very inspiring, thank you for sharing. today is wk 2 d2 for me and I'm loving it but have concerns as well. My knee is hurting with every step I take not to mention when I run/ jog. I am starting to wonder what its going to be like to run when the weather gets its coldest. I don't have access to a treadmill. any advice is welcome
Have you been fitted for good running shoes at a running store? My knees hurt until I got the right shoes.
As for cold weather, bundle up and keep running! Dress in layers with the layer closest to the skin being some kind of moisture wicking material.
Some sites with winter running tips:
How to Dress for Winter Running
Cold Weather Running
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very inspiring, thank you for sharing. today is wk 2 d2 for me and I'm loving it but have concerns as well. My knee is hurting with every step I take not to mention when I run/ jog. I am starting to wonder what its going to be like to run when the weather gets its coldest. I don't have access to a treadmill. any advice is welcome
Have you been fitted for shoes at a running store? This will make a world of difference. Take in an old pair of shoes so that they can see the wear on the tread. This will tell them how you land and which shoes you'll need.
Also, slow down. You have to wait for all of your systems (heart, lung, muscle, tendon) to catch up to the same place. At the moment, some are ahead of others in terms of strength. You need to take it extra slow in the first few weeks in order to give all systems a chance to get into sync. Tendons take the longest, which means your breathing will get better sooner.....which gives you the false idea that you can speed up, which could cause a tendon injury.
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carmenFL1560 wrote: »This morning I finished W6D3. I use Active C25K app in combination with Robert Ullrey's podcast and realized that the app run is 22 minutes and the podcast is for 25 minutes. So I just kept going for another 3 minutes. This makes me feel good about the runs next week but wish I could do something about the speed. During the first 5 minutes I was sure I could not make it but kept going and eventually got in my rhythm. At the end I could still run some more. Does that mean that I didn't challenge myself enough to go faster? Any suggestion is very appreciated.
Don't worry about time until after you finish the program. There will be days where you feel like you could run more and days when you won't be able to finish your run. That's normal.
You're doing great. Keep running at your pace. You'll speed up over time. You shouldn't start speed training until you've been running for a year or longer (probably longer). Just keep running; things will fall into place.0 -
thank you both for the advice , info and support. I will check into the shoes.0
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acorsaut89 wrote: »It sounds terrifying, I get it. I'm on week 3 and I'm terrified of week 4
But your body does amazing things! You might think you can't, and it's all completely psychological. If you just try it, I think you'll be surprised as to what your body can do. When I first started I was like there's no way I can run for 3 minutes let alone 8 minutes, or 20. But when I got to the 3 minute portion I just said to myself, try it - see where you get with it. I will admit my first 3 minute run was waaaaay stronger than my second and third one but I think I am going to repeat week 3 next week to ensure I feel comfy with it before moving on.
I think it's mostly psychological, you've got this and you can do it. I am only running at 3.8 miles/hour right now - and that's slow BUT I'm getting there and I'm doing it. You can do it, you will get there Just have faith in the process and keep going.
My internet has been giving me some issues so I couldn't get on a laptop and into this forum for sometime.
acorsaut89 : You are absolutely right. I'm on W3 now and I can keep moving until the lady says "your workout is complete"... Oh I could just kiss her then! My husband also says that it is more psychological. I keep both of you in mind when I reach my breaking point. That seems to work for me 0 -
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ggoss10: when I first got on a treadmill early this year, I was 264 lbs. Things haven't drastically changed, but I still feel self conscious sometimes when the girls @ the gym throw weird looks at me. Some have made passing comments also. But starting C25K has given me enormous confidence and a 's***w you' attitude. As I see the little tick marks on each day, it motivates me more and moreI was worried about the same thing...I weigh about 230. I don't push it, I go pretty slow. And yes, I am the fattest person on the Dreadmill, but rather than be bummed about it and self conscious, I'm proud of myself for doing it! My knee started bothering me so I'm taking it easy, but doing some swimming and elliptical until It feels better
How is your knee now? When I reach 199 lbs, I've promised myself swimming lessons 0 -
carmenFL1560 wrote: »archanajoyce wrote: »Hi.. I'm morbidly obese and didn't even know what C25K meant until a few weeks ago.
in Jan 2014 I weighed 120 kg... Currently at 94 kg.
I'm only 2 days in. At least I didn't require CPR (very nearly did but miraculously completed the 30 mins). I don't care about people looking at me or saying stuff. Just terrified of Week 2
This forum seems to have people at all fitness levels. Just looking for some reassurance from people who, like me, have tried this program in spite of being morbidly obese.
What were your major challenges?
What were your small victories?
This morning I just finished W6D2 and still can't believe I will dare to run 25 minutes on Wednesday. I need to lose 100lb and I do feel that excess weight every day I run. I started the program on October 10 and repeated several days because I didn't feel ready to move on. You will feel (physically and mentally) when you are ready to move on to the next week. It is more important, especially when carrying so much additional weight, to make sure you don't get injured and the hips and knees are getting the needed time to adjust to it.
I signed up for my first 5K ever for January 31. I scheduled it so far ahead so that I can improve my speed and keep myself motivated to keep running and lose some of the weight. So far I lost 11lb and keep telling myself that the more weight I lose the easier will be to run.
I know it is hard but love coming back here to this forum and get motivated and keep going.
It feels good to know I am not alone and somewhere out there is someone like me who is struggling to keep focused and succeed.
Hi Carmen... wow I'm in awe that you could complete W6. That gives me hope... hope that I don't need a certified first aider with me on the Week 6 run! Can't wait to hear how the training is progressing. Please keep me posted. Would love to cheer you on! You got this! 0 -
You've taken the biggest step by starting. Way to go!
The best words of advice I was given when I started was to take it slow. When you feel like giving up and walking, don't ......just slow down some more. Never worry about your speed.
I was overweight when I started and jiggled everywhere. I could barely do the 30 second run sessions but, by keeping it slow and staying on schedule, I managed it. My small victories were finishing each session successfully. That gave me energy and determination for the next session.
My major challenge was myself. The thought of running 30 minutes was so unbelievable to me that I didn't think I'd ever be able to do it. I had to stop thinking of the end of the program and just think about the session I was running.
Keep at it. Never give up. Keep it slow. You can do this.
The jiggling part... boy do I jiggle! If jiggling were a sport *sigh*!
I love your last line PaytraB, I'm going to write that on a sticky note put it on my desktop so I can see it everyday at work.
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ShyButSweet wrote: »You've taken the biggest step by starting. Way to go!
My major challenge was myself. The thought of running 30 minutes was so unbelievable to me that I didn't think I'd ever be able to do it. I had to stop thinking of the end of the program and just think about the session I was running.
Keep at it. Never give up. Keep it slow. You can do this.
In complete agreement. Running for 30 mins seems so out of reach. Explanation: I'm a person, who at times, want to go from 0 to 60. I like to say I have no patience, but really thru the years I've learned that I have plenty patience. For certain things that is. However, when it comes to seeing results - I don't have much. Or at least like to think I don't have much patience. I can have started the program a couple days ago, and already want to be at the finish line. I get down and hard on myself for not being able to accomplish more. I don't give myself that time for growth and improvment - because I want to be able to achieve what a person should be able to do by the end of the program. So I have had to learn to ease up on myself, take a breather (or two) and just tell myself : "Let it go".
Now, that may seem a little odd at first glance, but it simply means that I need to let go of the image I have of what I should be able to do, or what I want to be able to do right now (vs giving myself time to complete the program and work my way up to that fitness level). I have to let go of the self-criticism and appreciate my efforts and accomplishments for where I am at now. Letting go of all the negative thoughts, and focusing on the task at hand and what my objectifs are: short-term goal, medium and long-term ones. Where am I now? where do I want to be in 1 month? what about 3 months from now? 6 months? 1 year? By setting goals and concentrating on the upcoming one, you experience victories along the way and you strive to improve yourself and keep moving forward.
Just last Friday, I ran for 10 mins without interruption. Certainly I wasn't running very fast, actually it was really a jog, because others would have been able to walk at the pace I was running/jogging. But that sort of comment, I've come to find is detrimental, as it is negative. why get down on myself about running/jogging more slowly than others would have? did I or did I not Jog/run for 10 mins straight without stopping? Yes. Yes I did. and you know what? I'm proud of that. and I will not take anything away from my effort. I know I worked hard to get there, and I should celebrate that victory.
Please do the same. Always keep your chin up, because every victory is worth celebrating.
I wish you all the best in your endeavours and I look forwad to sharing in your journey.
I still have a ways to go before being at my goal weight (much closer to my starting weight than I am of my goal weight) - so if you'd like to motivate and support one another along the way, please feel free to add me as friend and I'll be there, chugging you along as we set goals and reach for the skies.
ShyButSweet: Thank you for writing back. Your thought process seems so like mine. Especially where you say "the image I have of what I should be able to do, or what I want to be able to do right now (vs giving myself time to complete the program and work my way up to that fitness level)" - That is spot on.
Short Term Goal - Close the year leaving the 90's behind (weight wise)
Medium Term Goal - Complete C25K without dying and Learn how to swim
Long Term Goal - Reach Target Weight (Ofcourse) and start trying for a baby
Looking at it that way, makes it look doable , right? I'm glad there are people half way across the world who can understand and who go through the exact same phases. reading your post gives me strength, it is like looking into the future. You and the others here have done it. You've been in my shoes, and you've broken through the blocks I've imagined are on the way. It has been done... so how can I fail?
I'm nearly half way to my goal weight and we could chug along motivating each other. I have no doubt in my mind that we all can do this!0 -
LOL! I still run slower than the average runner. I've come to realize that it's just the way things are going to be. BUT I'm running with decent form, I'm injury free and I'm having a good time at it. Best of all, I'M DOING IT!
Keep running and having fun (there's no such thing as "jogging"; it's all "running", regardless of speed. As long as both feet are off the ground at some point in your stride, it's "running").LOL! I still run slower than the average runner. I've come to realize that it's just the way things are going to be. BUT I'm running with decent form, I'm injury free and I'm having a good time at it. Best of all, I'M DOING IT!
Keep running and having fun (there's no such thing as "jogging"; it's all "running", regardless of speed. As long as both feet are off the ground at some point in your stride, it's "running").
You are doing an amazing job, both in running and keeping us gals motivated
I'm going to tell myself that the word 'jogging' does not exist!0 -
very inspiring, thank you for sharing. today is wk 2 d2 for me and I'm loving it but have concerns as well. My knee is hurting with every step I take not to mention when I run/ jog. I am starting to wonder what its going to be like to run when the weather gets its coldest. I don't have access to a treadmill. any advice is welcome
torenees: I guess Ceci and Paytra have answered that well. I agree with them. Good running shoes are what I would recommend. Also, the knee pain went away when I started taking it slow, stretching properly after runs, good warm up before starting the C25K thing (I walk for 5 mins and then turn on the application) and tried to find a running track at local park. The rubberised track did wonders and the knee pain (I hurt quite a lot and used Volini Gel for the pain), it sort of dulled and now it has pretty much disappeared. However if the pain becomes unbearable even after loosing a few pounds, I would suggest consulting your doctor. But I'm no expert. More power to you 0 -
torenees - I've always wanted to swim (morbid fear of drowning that I want to break), run, dance, scuba dive, sky dive, bungee jump. At 120 kg, I jiggled like a bowl of jelly in the midst of an earthquake. I still jiggle, but the earthquake has eased upI am on day 2 today of wk 1. I do have issues with being seen and embarrassed by my weight/size, but as odd as I feel doing this ...I want it real bad. It is not easy for me and I'm sure there are others who feel the same . Not only do I struggle with my personal feelings , I am so bad out of shape. I do feel more energized already and that's a good motivator , reading these boards helps also. When I said I'm so out of shape, what I mean is I've never been in shape . I know I will never have a perfect little body but I would like to feel comfortable in mine and these days I am not. I need to lose 30 lbs and I've always wanted to run. So today I can say In my lifetime I have weighed 8LBS and I have weighed 318LBS with many lbs up and down between the two, but I have never learned to swim, or dance, and I have never been a runner. These are 3 things I have always wanted to do and yesterday was my day 1. Good luck to you and to me, we can do this. I for one am stepping way out of my mental comfort zone , I physically don't want to stay there anymore.
New clothes that are trendy make me look pregnant. It has been three years into our marriage - people tactlessly ask. People whisper that I'll never have children exacerbated by the fact that I have athma, PCOD and Endometriosis. But coming to these forums made me realise that change is possible and positive change is necessary. It was difficult to get rid of the 'excuse culture' that I had settled into. "I can't seem to find the time, I don't have the right clothes, I don't have the right shoes, people look, people point and laugh, people whisper, it just ain't possible" - That was tough for me
Even in my imagination, I cannot see myself without these tyres and rolls of fat (back and arms and stomach). But these days I feel that change is possible, that I may just be able to do it. Look at you... you did it once - you can do it again! You got this!
There comes a time when we shuffle things around and try to make time and space for our goals. I totally understand how difficult that is. Children, significant other, social/career commitment etc - I'd like to say, through it all - It can be done. We can do this without compromising our lives let's get to work! 0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »archanajoyce wrote: »What were your major challenges?
I wasn't all that much lighter than you when I started C25K; 190lbs, though I'm quite tall.
I wouldn't put it as challenges but I did find that progress was quite rapid, although my deficit was quite large which became more of an issue for me as I lacked energy.
The main thing is probably to couple your running with some resistance training, to help protect your joints. Bodyweight work should be enough, it worked for me
I think the main thing for me was that I fairly quickly stopped worrying about my weight and started focussing on my running performance as a motivator.
Hello MeanderingMammal! I took your suggestion about weight training. Got to read up more about it and probably try to find a routine on the internet. Thank you for the tip about Bodyweight work.. I'll look it up 0
This discussion has been closed.