high carb meals at night every 10 days - is it worth it?
middleagedmeh
Posts: 104 Member
Background:
I am curious guy always wondering and changing things. I have lost a lot weight especially on keto - (24 kg total 16 of which on keto). I have been strict keto since August 2014 and started my journey in January 2014 with the classic calorie restriction first. I am 7kg away from my goal weight.
- M35/165cm/SW96/CW72/GW65
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The unexplained happening:
on thanksgiving day from 18 00 to about 22:00 I ingested a large amount of carbs. By my count around 200 or 300.g. Not the good carbs either. I knew i ate way over my maintenance and was ok with the accompanying gaing. The following day i did a fat fast but still managed to get only 15% below maintenance. felt horrible the next day. had a weight in the 3rd day and low and behold the highest weekly loss since the honeymoon week. I was puzzled.
The possible explanations;
I started combing through the forum and reddit and I found out this is actually fairly common. I was directed to read Jon kiefer's book on the carbnite solution. I just finished the non recipe parts and it seems to make sense. The author actually tells a similar story to mine where he ate a dozen donuts and had a huge weigh loss the next day. It took me 2 days though.
Questions:
has anybody read this book?
has anyone tried this? It is a CKD but with clear rules.
There is a subreddit on it but it seems dead.
The thought of going for the highest glycemic index carbs is as weird to me as the idea of going for saturated fat was 6 months ago but then again I may have been keto indoctrinated.
PS:
I am not talking about carb loading for body builders but the idea of once every 10 to 14 days shocking the body with 4 hours of foods that will raise your insulin high right before bed to readjust hormonal function (insulin leptin grehlin) in order to just re fire up the metabolism. It may actualy be benefial to do this to avoid metabolism slow down when you are eating at a high deficit like i am for a long time.
Disclosure:
I didn't have time to check most of the citations in the book. i know... I know...
Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.5*
34/M/5'5" | CW 159 | 25% BF | Mostly sedentary
* 1384 kcal Goal, a 27% deficit. (773 min, 1905 max)
* 20g Carbohydrates
* 75g Protein (72g min, 119g max)
* 112g Fat (44g min, 169g max)
I am curious guy always wondering and changing things. I have lost a lot weight especially on keto - (24 kg total 16 of which on keto). I have been strict keto since August 2014 and started my journey in January 2014 with the classic calorie restriction first. I am 7kg away from my goal weight.
- M35/165cm/SW96/CW72/GW65
-
The unexplained happening:
on thanksgiving day from 18 00 to about 22:00 I ingested a large amount of carbs. By my count around 200 or 300.g. Not the good carbs either. I knew i ate way over my maintenance and was ok with the accompanying gaing. The following day i did a fat fast but still managed to get only 15% below maintenance. felt horrible the next day. had a weight in the 3rd day and low and behold the highest weekly loss since the honeymoon week. I was puzzled.
The possible explanations;
I started combing through the forum and reddit and I found out this is actually fairly common. I was directed to read Jon kiefer's book on the carbnite solution. I just finished the non recipe parts and it seems to make sense. The author actually tells a similar story to mine where he ate a dozen donuts and had a huge weigh loss the next day. It took me 2 days though.
Questions:
has anybody read this book?
has anyone tried this? It is a CKD but with clear rules.
There is a subreddit on it but it seems dead.
The thought of going for the highest glycemic index carbs is as weird to me as the idea of going for saturated fat was 6 months ago but then again I may have been keto indoctrinated.
PS:
I am not talking about carb loading for body builders but the idea of once every 10 to 14 days shocking the body with 4 hours of foods that will raise your insulin high right before bed to readjust hormonal function (insulin leptin grehlin) in order to just re fire up the metabolism. It may actualy be benefial to do this to avoid metabolism slow down when you are eating at a high deficit like i am for a long time.
Disclosure:
I didn't have time to check most of the citations in the book. i know... I know...
Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.5*
34/M/5'5" | CW 159 | 25% BF | Mostly sedentary
* 1384 kcal Goal, a 27% deficit. (773 min, 1905 max)
* 20g Carbohydrates
* 75g Protein (72g min, 119g max)
* 112g Fat (44g min, 169g max)
0
Replies
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middleagedmeh my answer is NO after doing it Friday night after Thanksgiving for me personally at this point in time.
I have not read the book but watched his Youtube video on Carb Nite and read on the subject.
Carb Nite concept may be just fine for you and others but I overdid mine at Fazoli's by ordering their Ultimate Sampler plate and three bread sticks that was followed a few hours later with a milkshake which was around 1800 calories heavy on the carb side. I think he said or I read the night should be around 800 calories but I did not know the plates calories until after the fact. You can see this was a huge load.
My path that lead me to Very Low Carb High Fat was looking for joint/muscle pain management control from Ankylosing Spondylitis my form of arthritis at age 63.
I got on coconut oil in a major way first of Aug 2014 and started cutting carbs. That helped with the joint pain but I could tell a load of sugar made the pain worse. I got upset because I could not break the sugar/carb addiction like force that drove my cravings for carbs and decided it was time to put Mind over Matter and cut all added sugar, grains, fruit and for the most part dairy the first of Oct.
Before all of this I had dropped once again from 250 to 230. During October I lost 10 pounds quickly over about a 15 day period. Pain management improved from 7-8+ to 2-3 most days. I lost no pounds it Nov and was 220 after Thanksgiving day. After the following Fri Carb Nite I was 226 Sat night back to full Keto eating and stayed 226 for about 4 days then started dropping some. This morning 7 Dec 2014 I was back down to 220 finally.
My pain was back up to about 5 on 1-10 scale after Carb Nite and I felt really bad most of last week. Today my pain level is back to 2-3. We had Christmas lunch at church today but did not hit the carbs hard. The ham may have been sugar cured and I had a few lima beans but not bread or deserts and drank water. I did eat a number of fresh carrots, grape tomato and celery.
In time I may try it again but it will be with something like over ripe bananas and some very sweet black grapes but at this time I have no plans to do so.
Clearly much of my weight gain was water from eating so many carbs. It was the way I felt for the better part of a week that I can not get out of my mind more than the short term weight gain.
Because I am doing 6-12 tablespoons of coconut oil daily I am not eating at a deficit most days I expect. Now the pain level is under control I may start cutting that Fat to cut calories and see how low I can go to create more of a deficit without the pain coming back. I was low on protein and now I am getting about 90 grams each day added some calories.
Everyone's body is different and I am learning what works for one person may not apply to another.
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Very reasonable. It does state that medical conditions such as diabetes or hormonal disorders should stay away from it.
I am still iffy about it since the idea I have championed here was always to aim for adaptation over a long time. It seems to me despite the arguments for it taking just a few days that it took me a lot longer.
I will try it next week and report back. It will be mainly potatoes bread and maybe donuts or some sort of cake. my plan will be to eat very little through the day and on the car night stick to the 800 or so calories to not change my daily intake. We shall see...
Glad to hear this way of life also helps joint pain. It looks like any health issue I hear about cam be improved through LCHF.0 -
middleagedmeh wrote: »I am not talking about carb loading for body builders but the idea of once every 10 to 14 days shocking the body with 4 hours of foods that will raise your insulin high right before bed to readjust hormonal function (insulin leptin grehlin) in order to just re fire up the metabolism. It may actualy be benefial to do this to avoid metabolism slow down when you are eating at a high deficit like i am for a long time.
Like any other weight loss plan, Carbnite works for some and backfires horribly for others. However, the bold bothers me.
First of all, if you're only 7kg away from goal, you don't need to (and arguably shouldn't) be maintaining such a large deficit.
Second, any "avoiding metabolism slow down" you see when eating low carb is not from the lack of carbs, but lack of food (Jimmy Moore actually talks at length about this, primarily in response to the claims of LCHF causing adrenal/thyroid issues -- the issues are not due to LCHF as a macro distribution, but due to eating too few calories). The subsequent "re-firing" you see, then, isn't from eating the carbs, but more food in general.
You said it yourself:middleagedmeh wrote: »I knew i ate way over my maintenance
That said, if this method works for you (and you don't have to spend subsequent days fighting sugar cravings), then by all means, go for it.0 -
DW thanks. That helped me too. Due to my science/health background it makes me sick to see what some will do to sell books and 'diet foods'. Carb Nite I think is best left off by us with real health issues besides being over weight.
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I ate a lot of "safe" starches for me Thursday and when I went for fasting labs Friday, 13 hours later (YES 13!!) my fasting glucose was still elevated!! It has never been before, I usually read 80-85. It was 104!! That is unacceptable to me!0
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I wouldn't hold it against someone, if this was what they wanted to do. Heck, I recommended this plan to my wife. She knows low-carb works for her, but she's just not able to get past the mental aspect of giving up all those foods she loves "forever." For her, the fact that she only has to focus on 10-14 days and then gets to have a cheat might work.
As for the need to eat carbs to reset things, I don't find it necessary. I've gone a year with very low carbs and no resets without issues. Then, when I had a recent carb indulgence, I didn't notice anything positive resulting from it. Granted, my indulgence was 10 days long.0 -
My personal experience is that weight loss is not linear, and can get stuck, ie I'm eating a 3500 calorie deficit for 12 weeks, yet may only lose 10lbs in that period (actual weight loss, no water weight component), despite expecting to lose 12lbs in that period.. I then eat over the level I've been eating, be it in carbs or just generally in calories, and suddenly 3lbs fall off me in 4/ 5 days. The best explanation I've found for this behaviour seems to be in the anecdotes/ writing on the 'whoosh' syndrome, and this may be what has happened in your case.
In my own case, in late September I decided (prematurely) to reverse out of my diet. I upped my intake by 150/ 200 calories to start, and over the next 8 days, 5lbs fell off me, despite the fact with my deficit I would have expected to shed around 1.5- 2lbs maximum in that period. Nothing else changed, aside from me bumping my calorie intake, and none of the lbs I lost returned, and after that period, everything returned to normal loss-wise (ie what I lost was in accordance with the deficit I ate, and would have expected to lose).
Just my 2 cents.
Also, for what it's worth, I think refeeds can be a good idea, as they can help level out the hormonal funkiness that can come with eating at a sustained deficit, and especially at a prolonged lower carb level (glucose tends to stimulate leptin production).
I personally feel they are the most boring things ever though, as to make them worth your while and maximise leptin production while not gaining fat during the refeed, it's usually recommended to eat high levels of (glucose carbs), while keeping fat to a minimum, and also keeping an eye on fructose (it doesn't stimulate leptin like glucose does). Maybe it's not too bad for a single meal, but from what I've read, a single high carb meal will only have a fraction of the effect of a full day's refeed, so imagine you would need more of them, especially the more aggressive your deficit, carb level, and also bodyfat level.0 -
I would add to my post above, that minimising fat on a refeed seems to be recommended usually when overall caloric intake from your refeed would exceed maintenance calories. If eating at maintenance or below, don't think keeping to super low fat for the refeed is important (although by default eating more fat calories will mean you have less scope to eat as many carb calories during your refeed).
Also, after losing for the last 7 months or so, I tend to have a good feeling from my own body when things like hunger are out of control or getting there, so know when I need to do something like a refeed or even a full dietary break at maintenance for a while. In fact I recently had to do the latter for 14 days, but will say that was after about 6 months of straight losing without any sort of break.
To avoid the need for a full dietary break again (at least in the next couple of months), my (organic) plan/ strategy is to throw in some carb-y meals whenever I feel like them, and see if that doesn't help keep things in check hormonally and with regard to hunger and adherence. At least that is my guerilla-style plan of action, and my only focus is on weight loss personally, and know others may have different aims from low-carb
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Well it seems like the consensus here is that it is not necessary and that the danger of going back into craving carbs is high.
I appreciate all the responses.
As for my deficit it is sort of an odd thing. I wanted to up my calories but just couldn't because of my hunger level. I had set MFP to 1600 for a little while but couldn't get over 1300 without force feeding myself. The way i see it, i am at a comfortable point where i stay below 20g of carbs, hit my protein goal as much as possible, include as much fat as i can and stop eating when i have had enough. Before keto i had a very hard time getting to 1500 calories (always above)... with keto (except for some rare days for no reason whatsoever when i feel extra hungry), 1300 is perfectly satisfactory to my body.
Maintenance is near but i am not there yet :-)
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I ate a lot of "safe" starches for me Thursday and when I went for fasting labs Friday, 13 hours later (YES 13!!) my fasting glucose was still elevated!! It has never been before, I usually read 80-85. It was 104!! That is unacceptable to me!
WOW!
That is scary. Anyone else had that response?
Do you have any medical conditions?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »DW thanks. That helped me too. Due to my science/health background it makes me sick to see what some will do to sell books and 'diet foods'. Carb Nite I think is best left off by us with real health issues besides being over weight.
For sure. Not everyone goes low carb just for weight loss. If you're fortunate enough that your only issue is weight, then something like Carbnite might work well (especially if it helps with the mental barrier of giving up carby foods).
However, a lot of people go low carb for health reasons (or realize that their health improves independent of weight loss after they go low carb, and so stay that way). For those people, I'd say that Carbnite would be more likely to fail or even backfire entirely, as the health issues are often due to some kind of damage done by the sugar (or the sugar-containing foods eaten). In those cases, such carb "refeeds" would be akin to cutting yourself intentionally every week or so.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »DW thanks. That helped me too. Due to my science/health background it makes me sick to see what some will do to sell books and 'diet foods'. Carb Nite I think is best left off by us with real health issues besides being over weight.
For sure. Not everyone goes low carb just for weight loss. If you're fortunate enough that your only issue is weight, then something like Carbnite might work well (especially if it helps with the mental barrier of giving up carby foods).
However, a lot of people go low carb for health reasons (or realize that their health improves independent of weight loss after they go low carb, and so stay that way). For those people, I'd say that Carbnite would be more likely to fail or even backfire entirely, as the health issues are often due to some kind of damage done by the sugar (or the sugar-containing foods eaten). In those cases, such carb "refeeds" would be akin to cutting yourself intentionally every week or so.
I agree entirely! As someone with no medical training i refrain from advising anyone with a medical condition on what to do. I want to make sure everyone understands i was simply asking for advice and possible experience with this diet and that i am not recommending it to anyone. I have not tried it yet either.
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middleagedmeh wrote: »Well it seems like the consensus here is that it is not necessary and that the danger of going back into craving carbs is high.
I appreciate all the responses.
As for my deficit it is sort of an odd thing. I wanted to up my calories but just couldn't because of my hunger level. I had set MFP to 1600 for a little while but couldn't get over 1300 without force feeding myself. The way i see it, i am at a comfortable point where i stay below 20g of carbs, hit my protein goal as much as possible, include as much fat as i can and stop eating when i have had enough. Before keto i had a very hard time getting to 1500 calories (always above)... with keto (except for some rare days for no reason whatsoever when i feel extra hungry), 1300 is perfectly satisfactory to my body.
Maintenance is near but i am not there yet :-)
I would be curious to see if you can get away without refeeds/ breaks of some sort, as long term sustainability of low carb is not something I've looked into too much (only doing low carb for weight loss). I suppose it all really only matters if in a deficit, so if you're getting enough calories in to meet your maintenance needs, hormones shouldn't get out of whack ? Just curious really, as it's not something I gave much thought to, as I find with a maintenance intake level of between 2600- 3000 calories a day, I've never been able to eat that much if restricting carbs.
Re: cravings, if you're suffering from cravings, staying away from carbs and re-introducing them on a staged basis, and quality carbs first is probably the way to go, although I'm sure many cut carbs back permanently without re-introducing. Personally speaking, I've never had a real problem with natural/ complex carbs, but the simple/ refined ones are another matter. I will say though after a low carb (50- 100g/ day) period of 4, maybe 5 months, I found I handled simple/ refined carbs a lot better from a blood-sugar point of view. Keeping the level of them in check, and preventing myself from overeating on them, when there are more carbs in my diet however is still a work in progress, lol
Congrats on the results and progress so far I credit low-carb with being able to keep to a deficit much easier than other ways I've tried, but would find 1300/ 1500 a bit on the low side..
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eatfatlosefatblog.com/how-to-configure-myfitnesspal-for-a-low-carb-or-ketogenic-diet/
Here is an example I found of how to set up a MFP macro for very low carb diet in trying to answer a question about why the high fat. Now that I have my pain managed OK by diet at this time I am going to start tweaking for weight loss/pain control balance.
I have tried but over eating but without carbs I have not been able to gain any weight. Well weight gain was not my goal but I have eaten 2000-3000 extra Fat cals from macadamia nuts a few time with no uptick of the scales. I love those things. Long term that might be very different how ever.
DH Kiefer (Carb Nite author) has a Youtube short video that flat out states one can not gain weight from over eating Protein but we know serious over eating protein can be damaging to the kidneys at least for not other issues.
On MFP uninformed personal dieting views gets passed of as Science every day. I am glad to see this LC board option.0 -
Mid;middleagedmeh wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »DW thanks. That helped me too. Due to my science/health background it makes me sick to see what some will do to sell books and 'diet foods'. Carb Nite I think is best left off by us with real health issues besides being over weight.
For sure. Not everyone goes low carb just for weight loss. If you're fortunate enough that your only issue is weight, then something like Carbnite might work well (especially if it helps with the mental barrier of giving up carby foods).
However, a lot of people go low carb for health reasons (or realize that their health improves independent of weight loss after they go low carb, and so stay that way). For those people, I'd say that Carbnite would be more likely to fail or even backfire entirely, as the health issues are often due to some kind of damage done by the sugar (or the sugar-containing foods eaten). In those cases, such carb "refeeds" would be akin to cutting yourself intentionally every week or so.
I agree entirely! As someone with no medical training i refrain from advising anyone with a medical condition on what to do. I want to make sure everyone understands i was simply asking for advice and possible experience with this diet and that i am not recommending it to anyone. I have not tried it yet either.
No "worries" on the "misunderstandings" - I'm sure (think?) everyone understands that NOTHING that ANYONE on these (or any other) boards should EVER be taken as "medical advice" - even IF it were to come from a "certified" doc or dietitian.
No "legit" pro would ever "diagnose" by wire, sight unseen, and those that do are (IMO), not only putting their credentials at risk but demonstrating their questionable judgement.
All that said, however, I believe (others are free to disagree, of course) that DISCUSSION and DEBATE of these "issues" by us "laypeople" is not only highly beneficial, but critical if we are to be able to educate ourselves sufficiently to understand OUR bodies and how what we stuff into the piehole impacts not just our weight, but all things health wise.
There's little disagreement any longer that docs (and dietitians/nutritionists) are not "Gods" and quite frankly, a number of them remain locked in the stone age when it comes to diet.
Neither is there much question that even the "best" (most up to date on the science) have limited time to "discuss" with us (the patients), the details.
So we have no choice but to do much of it on our own and that's a GOOD thing.
Anecdotal DOESN'T (necessarily) mean "invalid" and yes, of course, it isn't "evidence" (proof) of ANYTHING beyond the experience of that one, particular, individual (or that it will apply to anyone else.) But it IS, at the very least "food for thought" and might spur one on to dig deeper into the research to try and find out "why".
Count me in the platoon that believes that "cheats", "refeeds", "carb holidays", etc, don't make sense for MOST people who adopt Nutritional Ketosis (Fat Adaptation) not just for weight loss but also for general health and wellness reasons.
ESPECIALLY for those with a detectable level of IR (Insulin Resistance) - whether diagnosed T1D, T2D, pre-T2D, obesity, or metabolic syndrome (which by definition is probably at least half, if not more, of us.)
While not "settled science", the "evidence" is pretty convincing that it all comes down to glucose, insulin, hormones, and inflamation (very oversimplified).
ANY increase in carbs (sugar) WILL result in increased glucose levels which will result in increased insulin production, which will result (at significant enough levels) in decreased ability of the body to utilize body fat stored in the cells for energy. And it IS "settled science" that the body requires ZERO/NO dietary carbs - they are simply NOT "essential" nutrients.
For a "normal" (non-IR) person it's not a big deal - for the rest of us IT IS.
If one accepts the premise (as I do) AND is susceptible to (or concerned about for the future), IR - the decision seems obvious.
It's the (primary) reason I'm also in the "total" (not "net") carbs, camp.
As Cindy observed above, "safe", "low GI", or "net" carbs DO affect blood sugar levels.
Granted they do it in a slower fashion and "some" might never be metabolized (insoluble fiber) but much (most?) of it IS - and "slower" is NOT necessarily "better". Ingested carbs (in whatever form) have to go somewhere.
Indeed there is increasing evidence that "slower" rates result in "longer" periods of elevated insulin levels which may be at least as detrimental as the "spikes" we all recognize as deleterious.
Her example is also (one of) the best examples of why I'm a believer in testing (home, frequent, blood). Her "numbers" by "generally accepted" standards are excellent. By her personal standards though they are not "good enough" and only by testing, AND her willingness to share the results, are we (and she) able to "track down" the reason(s) why.
My hope is that at some point it will go without saying that "we're all different", "what works for one won't for all", "if it works for you", "I'm not a doc/dietitian", "others believe....", etc, etc, etc. and we can all focus on exposing ourselves (and others) to the available "science" in order to make an "informed" decision as to what is "right" in our individual cases.
Thank you, Cindy, and ALL the others who have participated in approaching that goal (even, and maybe especially, those that disagree.)
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iLose;iloseityes wrote: »middleagedmeh wrote: »Well it seems like the consensus here is that it is not necessary and that the danger of going back into craving carbs is high.
I appreciate all the responses.
As for my deficit it is sort of an odd thing. I wanted to up my calories but just couldn't because of my hunger level. I had set MFP to 1600 for a little while but couldn't get over 1300 without force feeding myself. The way i see it, i am at a comfortable point where i stay below 20g of carbs, hit my protein goal as much as possible, include as much fat as i can and stop eating when i have had enough. Before keto i had a very hard time getting to 1500 calories (always above)... with keto (except for some rare days for no reason whatsoever when i feel extra hungry), 1300 is perfectly satisfactory to my body.
Maintenance is near but i am not there yet :-)
I would be curious to see if you can get away without refeeds/ breaks of some sort, as long term sustainability of low carb is not something I've looked into too much (only doing low carb for weight loss). <snipped>
Re: cravings, if you're suffering from cravings, staying away from carbs and re-introducing them on a staged basis, and quality carbs first is probably the way to go, although I'm sure many cut carbs back permanently without re-introducing. Personally speaking, I've never had a real problem with natural/ complex carbs, but the simple/ refined ones are another matter. I will say though after a low carb (50- 100g/ day) period of 4, maybe 5 months, I found I handled simple/ refined carbs a lot better from a blood-sugar point of view. Keeping the level of them in check, and preventing myself from overeating on them, when there are more carbs in my diet however is still a work in progress, lol
Congrats on the results and progress so far I credit low-carb with being able to keep to a deficit much easier than other ways I've tried, but would find 1300/ 1500 a bit on the low side..
I "think" I'd agree, with your premise although I think that a larger percentage of folks who truly do become FA ARE able to "sustain" than we might generally "think" (just a WAG on my part of course, no documentation other than personal experience).
On the "cravings" thing though, the more anecdotal AND controlled study "evidence" I see, the more I believe that "cravings" (or lack thereof), MIGHT just be one of the most reliable methods of determining actual Fat Adaptation (aside from blood B-OHB testing levels, of course).
In a very large segment of those who proclaim to be "in ketosis" (as measured by "purple styx", "stinky urine", or other subjective "indicators"), but continue to report "cravings" - I'd be willing to bet a B-OHB test would prove otherwise.
"Might" and "most", of course, DO NOT imply that it's consistent in EVERY case, and certainly there will be individual exceptions which do not, nor should, call into question the "veracity" of those who are.
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deansdad101 wrote: »iLose;
I "think" I'd agree, with your premise although I think that a larger percentage of folks who truly do become FA ARE able to "sustain" than we might generally "think" (just a WAG on my part of course, no documentation other than personal experience).
On the "cravings" thing though, the more anecdotal AND controlled study "evidence" I see, the more I believe that "cravings" (or lack thereof), MIGHT just be one of the most reliable methods of determining actual Fat Adaptation (aside from blood B-OHB testing levels, of course).
In a very large segment of those who proclaim to be "in ketosis" (as measured by "purple styx", "stinky urine", or other subjective "indicators"), but continue to report "cravings" - I'd be willing to bet a B-OHB test would prove otherwise.
Yes, it would be interesting to see if someone who was eating low carb and at maintenance levels experienced any of the hormonal funkiness with leptin/ ghrelin/ etc. I suppose by virtue of all the longer term keto/ low carb folks who do this as a way of life, it proves sustainability, and guess I was just curious
Interesting thoughts re: cravings. Myself I just felt cravings were more down to sugar adaptation than fat adaptation, but that's just my own personal thoughts. Re: fat adaptation, I found the keto 'flu' a good guide in my own case, but know these things may affect others differently and some don't experience such pronounced effects
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iLose;iloseityes wrote: »deansdad101 wrote: »iLose;
I "think" I'd agree, with your premise although I think that a larger percentage of folks who truly do become FA ARE able to "sustain" than we might generally "think" (just a WAG on my part of course, no documentation other than personal experience).
On the "cravings" thing though, the more anecdotal AND controlled study "evidence" I see, the more I believe that "cravings" (or lack thereof), MIGHT just be one of the most reliable methods of determining actual Fat Adaptation (aside from blood B-OHB testing levels, of course).
In a very large segment of those who proclaim to be "in ketosis" (as measured by "purple styx", "stinky urine", or other subjective "indicators"), but continue to report "cravings" - I'd be willing to bet a B-OHB test would prove otherwise.
Yes, it would be interesting to see if someone who was eating low carb and at maintenance levels experienced any of the hormonal funkiness with leptin/ ghrelin/ etc. I suppose by virtue of all the longer term keto/ low carb folks who do this as a way of life, it proves sustainability, and guess I was just curious
Interesting thoughts re: cravings. Myself I just felt cravings were more down to sugar adaptation than fat adaptation, but that's just my own personal thoughts. Re: fat adaptation, I found the keto 'flu' a good guide in my own case, but know these things may affect others differently and some don't experience such pronounced effects
Totally agree that "...things may (do) affect others differently" and while I'm not questioning that "...in my (your) case, I found the keto 'flu' a good guide...",
I don't believe (nor did you say), that it (flu) is a "good indicator of FA" for MOST.
The "flu" symptoms, I believe, are almost exclusively the body's "natural" (or typical) reaction to the major changes in macro composition and "especially" the reduction in sugars, grains, and refined carbage that "most" (and to varying degrees) induce in a relatively short period of time.
Likewise, when folks go "in and out" of ketosis (at whatever level, not necessarily FA), the recurrence of flu symptoms (and general disdain for the effects of going "off the reservation") are too, the body's signals that it's not all that happy with the "change" and wants you to know <g>.
Broken record and beating the same dead horse but I'm convinced that without accurate, reliable, blood ketone level testing "assuming" FA, based on any of the "subjective" indicators - is (in most cases), "wishful thinking".
On the other hand, I also believe that, eventually (as in weeks, maybe months, not days), pretty much anyone "can" attain FA status - with or without testing and IF "proper" (for them) macro balances are adhered to (pretty religiously). (and assuming general good health)
Just - IMO. TIFWIW
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deansdad101 wrote: »iLose;
Totally agree that "...things may (do) affect others differently" and while I'm not questioning that "...in my (your) case, I found the keto 'flu' a good guide...",
I don't believe (nor did you say), that it (flu) is a "good indicator of FA" for MOST.
The "flu" symptoms, I believe, are almost exclusively the body's "natural" (or typical) reaction to the major changes in macro composition and "especially" the reduction in sugars, grains, and refined carbage that "most" (and to varying degrees) induce in a relatively short period of time.
Likewise, when folks go "in and out" of ketosis (at whatever level, not necessarily FA), the recurrence of flu symptoms (and general disdain for the effects of going "off the reservation") are too, the body's signals that it's not all that happy with the "change" and wants you to know <g>.
Broken record and beating the same dead horse but I'm convinced that without accurate, reliable, blood ketone level testing "assuming" FA, based on any of the "subjective" indicators - is (in most cases), "wishful thinking".
On the other hand, I also believe that, eventually (as in weeks, maybe months, not days), pretty much anyone "can" attain FA status - with or without testing and IF "proper" (for them) macro balances are adhered to (pretty religiously). (and assuming general good health)
Just - IMO. TIFWIW
Interesting way to look at it, it's definitely a viewpoint I hadn't considered In my own case, I would probably disagree, as my induction to low carb was a slow one, maybe over 3 weeks or so, with a gradual tapering down of carbs. I know others may dump the carbs cold-turkey and have all sorts of withdrawal-type effects though.
Re: the fat adaptation, from what I can see, or perhaps derived, the first bout of keto-flu I experience seems to be within a week/ 10 days, and suspect/ wonder if it's not closely related to the bodies acceptance/ adaptation to sustained depletion of glycogen stores. The 2nd bout of keto flu 3/ 4 weeks in, then seemed to be more about the bodies full/ optimal adaptation to burning fat primarily for energy.
'Adaptation' itself, I find a funny way to look at the whole process, seeing as we all burn fat to some degree in our daily lives already, and the whole keto-flu thing seems more about the body switching over to it's secondary fuel system (fat), from its usual primary one (carbs).
Anyway, just some thoughts, and fear we're deep into semantics territory, lol
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Thanks deansdad. Insightful as always.
I like the low carb lifestyle for the way it feels more than the weight loss itself. I know a few people who live this way and have no trouble maintaining so I believe that it can be sustained with no adverse effects.
What attracted me about the carbnite thing was this idea that after about a week on a very low carb diet, leptin levels fall drastically. This should be a signal to the body to slow down body fat consumption. Since I was very low carb for 4 month prior to any re feed and losing at a very satisfactory rate (more than I ever anticipated), I could refute this argument. but the issue is that at the deficit I am at no matter what leptin signals you will lose fat just from the deficit itself (maybe -no proof).
They seem to have proof that leptin does get down regulated in all very low carb dieters. There is no harm in this really and the only known way to make it go back to a normal level (for about 5 to 6 days) is to voluntarily cause a short (temporary 4 hours or so) high spike in insulin. As you said there will no fat burning during these couple of hours since insulin is present but they argue that the high leptin levels that stay for a few days are worth the sacrifice since they will result in higher ability to burn fat. I think it is an interesting concept and I will try it for science! If I gain 2 or 3 kg it will set me back but I will learn a lesson from it.
Thank you all for the interest in the debate. This is why I love this community. On other forums I saw a few posts with similar theme turn very quickly into heretic which hunts.0 -
With weight loss usually the leptin levels will fall irrespective of the diet. Lower leptin/hormonal levels is one of the reason lot of people gain back weight after losing weight. I can't speak about theories but from my own tests, the first 3 months I lost around 30 lbs on low carb. Most of my hormones were depressed as is expected from losing weight. But between 3-6 months though I lost around 20 lbs most of my hormonal levels started climbing back up. At least for me the fall in leptin levels was temporary. I started carb loading every week for last couple of months or so as during my bulk cycle and continued in to my cutting cycle. I personally don't see any difference in weight loss with a carb load and with out a carb load. I tried a 36-48 hour carb load cycle and felt like crap. Now, I do a 6-12 hour carb load with candies and sugar. The fat loss depends on lot of factors including macros, meal frequency, meal timings and to an extent calorie consumption. I see best results in fat loss when I keep my work outs under 30 min, eat one big huge meal a day ( I eat around 2500-2700 cals) and work out fasting. I have been keto for more than a year and my hormones are better than where they were before Keto. You can read all you want but the best thing to do is look inside your own body. Try to get to know your body, get some tests done and figure out whats going on. Studies are observations, there is no guarantee that your body will do the same as observed in a study.0
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I too really enjoy the energy I have living in the keto state. Of course dropping the pain level about 5 points was a huge plus. There is so much more for me to learn.0
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Mid;middleagedmeh wrote: »Thanks deansdad. Insightful as always.
I like the low carb lifestyle for the way it feels more than the weight loss itself. I know a few people who live this way and have no trouble maintaining so I believe that it can be sustained with no adverse effects.
What attracted me about the carbnite thing was this idea that after about a week on a very low carb diet, leptin levels fall drastically. This should be a signal to the body to slow down body fat consumption. Since I was very low carb for 4 month prior to any re feed and losing at a very satisfactory rate (more than I ever anticipated), I could refute this argument. but the issue is that at the deficit I am at no matter what leptin signals you will lose fat just from the deficit itself (maybe -no proof).
They seem to have proof that leptin does get down regulated in all very low carb dieters. There is no harm in this really and the only known way to make it go back to a normal level (for about 5 to 6 days) is to voluntarily cause a short (temporary 4 hours or so) high spike in insulin. As you said there will no fat burning during these couple of hours since insulin is present but they argue that the high leptin levels that stay for a few days are worth the sacrifice since they will result in higher ability to burn fat. I think it is an interesting concept and I will try it for science! If I gain 2 or 3 kg it will set me back but I will learn a lesson from it.
Thank you all for the interest in the debate. This is why I love this community. On other forums I saw a few posts with similar theme turn very quickly into heretic which hunts.
Great!.......just GREAT!!!
Let's throw leptin "resistance" into the mix just to REALLY confuse things <VBG>
(kidding aside, it does just go to show how interdependent (and individual) all these things are)
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If you get more info on Leptin please let me know. That is very interesting.
The glucose/ketone meter came today but is still in the box.0 -
Anecdotally... when i was only counting calories, a "cheat" day would almost guarantee i would lose weight assuming i had been in my calorie limit for the days immediately before. And by "cheat" day i mean moderate cheat, but above my caloric limit. IE, i would normally have a salad for dinner, but i had 2 reasonable sized pieces of pizza instead. However-that being said, now that i am keto, cheating has the opposite effect. I gain weight swiftly if i go over my carbs and will but slightly slower if i am going over calories but not carbs. I am also sensitive to alcohol. Also i have less to lose now which perhaps could explain part of it too. TL;DR...my body is not hip to cheating on keto even though it was fairly ok with it earlier on in my dieting experience (counting cals).0
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deansdad101 wrote: »Her example is also (one of) the best examples of why I'm a believer in testing (home, frequent, blood). Her "numbers" by "generally accepted" standards are excellent. By her personal standards though they are not "good enough" and only by testing, AND her willingness to share the results, are we (and she) able to "track down" the reason(s) why.
Speaking of frequent, at-home testing -- you know what I would love to see/find? An at-home way to test insulin. My issue is with hyperinsulinemia, and testing glucose alone is next to useless (my glucose levels are "normal" and even nearly considered "very good," despite my insulin pushing "pre-diabetes"). I'd love to be able to test it to see the insulin response I have to certain foods, so that I can limit those with a larger response the same way someone would limit foods with a higher glucose spiking effect.0 -
DW;Dragonwolf wrote: »deansdad101 wrote: »Her example is also (one of) the best examples of why I'm a believer in testing (home, frequent, blood). Her "numbers" by "generally accepted" standards are excellent. By her personal standards though they are not "good enough" and only by testing, AND her willingness to share the results, are we (and she) able to "track down" the reason(s) why.
Speaking of frequent, at-home testing -- you know what I would love to see/find? An at-home way to test insulin. My issue is with hyperinsulinemia, and testing glucose alone is next to useless (my glucose levels are "normal" and even nearly considered "very good," despite my insulin pushing "pre-diabetes"). I'd love to be able to test it to see the insulin response I have to certain foods, so that I can limit those with a larger response the same way someone would limit foods with a higher glucose spiking effect.
A while back I went on the hunt for a home insulin level test.
Far as I know (unless something has changed in the interim) - the only things that exist work with pumps and since I'm not (thankfully) using one, I pretty much dropped the search.
There was "talk" at the time of a home urine test but I'm not sure exactly what it tested for or if it ever came to fruition.
Here's the link I saved but it's pretty old.
tinyurl.com/m5le9zd
You've probably already found the "mail in" ones but it sounds like they won't do what you want to do and they're not cheap.
tinyurl.com/mdexe7x
Sorry
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Anecdotally... when i was only counting calories, a "cheat" day would almost guarantee i would lose weight assuming i had been in my calorie limit for the days immediately before. And by "cheat" day i mean moderate cheat, but above my caloric limit. IE, i would normally have a salad for dinner, but i had 2 reasonable sized pieces of pizza instead. However-that being said, now that i am keto, cheating has the opposite effect. I gain weight swiftly if i go over my carbs and will but slightly slower if i am going over calories but not carbs. I am also sensitive to alcohol. Also i have less to lose now which perhaps could explain part of it too. TL;DR...my body is not hip to cheating on keto even though it was fairly ok with it earlier on in my dieting experience (counting cals).
That is the same thing I have experience. When just counting cals I could have a milkshake and lose a pound the next day or two. While I over did Carb Nite gaining 6 pounds that took a week to lose (water I expect) plus feeling really bad with no energy for four days has turned me off of the idea of a cheat meal.0 -
deansdad101 wrote: »
DW;Dragonwolf wrote: »deansdad101 wrote: »Her example is also (one of) the best examples of why I'm a believer in testing (home, frequent, blood). Her "numbers" by "generally accepted" standards are excellent. By her personal standards though they are not "good enough" and only by testing, AND her willingness to share the results, are we (and she) able to "track down" the reason(s) why.
Speaking of frequent, at-home testing -- you know what I would love to see/find? An at-home way to test insulin. My issue is with hyperinsulinemia, and testing glucose alone is next to useless (my glucose levels are "normal" and even nearly considered "very good," despite my insulin pushing "pre-diabetes"). I'd love to be able to test it to see the insulin response I have to certain foods, so that I can limit those with a larger response the same way someone would limit foods with a higher glucose spiking effect.
A while back I went on the hunt for a home insulin level test.
Far as I know (unless something has changed in the interim) - the only things that exist work with pumps and since I'm not (thankfully) using one, I pretty much dropped the search.
There was "talk" at the time of a home urine test but I'm not sure exactly what it tested for or if it ever came to fruition.
Here's the link I saved but it's pretty old.
tinyurl.com/m5le9zd
You've probably already found the "mail in" ones but it sounds like they won't do what you want to do and they're not cheap.
tinyurl.com/mdexe7x
Sorry
Yeah, that's pretty much what came from my searches as well. Found someone that asked at ask.yahoo.com or something like that (one of those "ask me anything" type of sites), and the responses were pretty much "why would you want to do that?" Granted, the person asking seemed to want it more for curiosity's sake, but the reaction still showed the lack of understanding that blood glucose and blood insulin are actually independent of each other and knowing glucose doesn't not provide insulin levels (as the responses were also along the lines of "just test your glucose. Knowing insulin is unnecessary").
Unrelated to the thread as whole, but related to the "why isn't this a home test?" thing, iron testing is in the same boat. The pharmacist looked at me like I had three heads when I asked about a way to test iron at home. It made sense to me, since it can be done in a doctor's office and the Red Cross does it all the time for blood donations and all it needs is a prick not unlike a glucose test -- seemed logical that such a test for home users might be available, even if hard to find. Evidently, the idea of some other tool for home use that requires blood is unheard of or something...
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The leptin element I find an interesting part of the topic at hand. Like others I never really had a problem with excessive leptin/ hunger for quite a stretch of time (4/ 5 months) when low-carbing it, so a lot of the stuff around needing to do something asap at the start of any low-carb programme, or have leptin and other hormones spiral wildly out of control, I find a little questionable.
That said, after 6 months of a persistent caloric deficit, the first 4/ 5 months of which were low-carb, I've been finding in the last 4/ 5 weeks my hunger levels have been out of control. I'm not sure if this is just leptin/ hormonal levels, or some other funkiness, as I decided to bite the bullet and take a full, fortnight-long dietary break about 3/ 4 weeks ago, which should have allowed things to return to normal.
I must say though, I am equally interested in the carb-backloading element of the conversation, but more as a device to stimulate growth hormone at night, and perhaps reap some of the non-muscular elements of bulking. The hgh benefits of bulking I find interesting, and some of the anecdotal reading I've been doing would seem to indicate junky carbs late evening/ pre-bedtime give a nice boost to hgh, especially right before sleep, the time that the highest levels of hgh seems to be generated.
Resistance training prior to the late evening carb-rich meal would seem to only boost those effects, as well as a combo of fast releasing carbs with protein being the optimal post-workout nutrition cocktail.
I'm talking out loud here now, but how the above work in conjunction I've been finding interesting.. 0
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