Conflicting messages with EM2WL

Firefly0606

My lovely brother and sis in law gave me a book written by a PT for Christmas. They highly recommend it as they have both been roughly following the program and have had success with weight loss by following it. I have had a few good chats with my bro over the last few months, he is somewhat of a weight loss inspiration for me, losing 30kg over the last 3 years.

I read the book. It is at odds with what I have been reading and slowly absorbing from EM2WL over the last few weeks. I have been lurking in the shadows here for some time now, trying to get my head around eating more and undoing the years of yo-yo dieting, guilt, frustration etc. But is written by a very well known PT, who is successful, has successfully trained many people and helped them to lose weight.

My bro called last night wanting to know if I have read the book. I asked him a few questions. He is 6'2" - and eating about 1500 cal per day. I said that was below my BMR...his was probably more than mine...I said I didn't think he was eating enough. Saying that felt like I learned something from EM2WL, but also very hypocritical....I mean, who is the fat one on the phone? Who has had success? He stuck to it - it works, just do it, eat less, train hard....all the usual stuff that I have tried many times over the years in various forms and here I am.

I suppose I am looking for some encouragement here on this. I am ready to EM2WL. I am 172cm (5"9'), 109kg, 31yo. I am a desk jockey 5 days per week from 9-5. I joined the local health club which gives me access to a variety of classes, personal training, gym and a pool. I LIFTED for the first time in about 17 years and I love it already I nearly died when the scales at my first meeting at the gym ready 45% body fat. (That's gross and about to change.)

The book suggests I need to eat 1300 calories a day, work out 6 days per week with a mixture of cardio and weights/circuit. The emphasis seems to be on more cardio. So I figure none of you here are surprised - it is pretty standard weight loss industry stuff. I calculate my BMR as 1865, TDEE 2891 (allowing moderate activity 3-5 hours per week now I have a health club membership). 15% cut value 2457 cal. Which seems like a lot, but I'm ready to give it a go!

Looking for some encouragement that I am making the right call here.

mymodernbabylon

The book is right, you will lose at 1300 calories. And probably quickly because it's so low. BUT why not eat more, lose the weight more slowly, keep more of your muscle and actually learn how to eat for life rather than 'be on a diet'? I currently am eating at TDEE (2100 claories) until Jan 1 after having lost 20 lbs this past year. And I didn't feel deprived or on a diet, which also allowed me to keep going with ease.

The book is following the traditional method of losing weight which keeps people having to keep doing it over and over and over again. This is why the dieting industry makes huge amounts of money - you'll lose the weight, feel awful, go back to eating or potentially binging due to under-eating, gain weight and start again cause you feel guilty for having done it 'wrong'.

mymodernbabylon

I see this as a journey (EM2WL) versus a sprint (pretty much every diet out there).

heybales

Also realize this, while you can keep eating less and less, and overcome a max suppression of around 20-25% that will happen to your daily burn, you also negatively impact exercise.

The lifting can help in a small degree to retain some muscle mass, but really, eat too little, and it's a matter of least used first lost, even among what you are using.
And if encouragement is on cardio that isn't even happening, it will soon be pretty weak cardio compared to say maintenance or reasonable deficit. It will turn it to merely burning more calories - to attempt to compensate for the suppression to your daily burn you caused.

And then when you reach goal weight, eating 20% less than you could have otherwise, or exercising 20% more to compensate, your maintenance will also need to be 20% less than otherwise. Or you better increase that exercise.
And don't get sick or injured or go on vacation with less exercise - you'll have to eat even less than.
Sound good?

If you don't enjoy eating and had no problem prior eating very little (who has that problem and gains weight though, really) then that may be alright.

But the body will never improve from exercise in a suppressed state as well (or at all) compared to a healthier state.
Why would it make improvements that require even more daily calorie burn when it's had to slow down because of the lack of intake? Not going to happen.

Share with him - perhaps it'll shock some sense into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A

And while their view is that this is lifetime - more recent studies have shown recovery is possible, while confirming the effect.

aylajane

There is a tongue in cheek saying "Whoever dies with the most toys wins". I like the correlation "Whoever loses weight eating the most wins". If you eat very low calorie, you will lose weight but make your body more effiecient (usually by losing muscle) so you will have to eat lower to maintain your weight if you ever get to that point. By easing yourself down and losing slowly, while putting on muscle, you could actually end up eating MORE as you lose weight.

I started out eating 1000-1200 with 40% body fat. I gained 20 pounds by eating 1800 or so and not getting off my butt. Over the past year, I have started lifting heavy weights. My trainer has had me increasing my calories every month all year. Not only did I lose the original 20 pounds, but another 15 on top of it, and I am now 17% body fat. The best part - I "maintain" my weight eating on average 2100-2300 calories a day (LOVE THAT MUSCLE!). All the while I am very slowly changing fat to muscle. I now am in the FUN position of "bulking" - purposely gaining a few pounds in the hopes of increasing muscle mass. Starting Jan 1, instead of going on another diet like every other year, my calories get to go up about another 2-300 a day I feel like I am cheating the system and getting away with something, but really - this stuff works! If I actually do manage to gain a few more pounds of muscle in the coming months (trying to gain about 3 pounds of muscle in 6 months, keeping overall gain to under 10 pounds so fat stays under 20%), that means my permanent maintenance will be higher as well! So even when i quit "bulking" I wont be going down in calories very much at all.

Good luck!

Firefly0606

Thank you for all your replies. You have all confirmed exactly what I have learned from my months of lurking and reading posts and the website.

heybales, thank you for the youtube link. This explains so much. And also why the author of my Christmas present works out 2 times a day, 6 days per week, and only eats 1300 calories. This person is an industry leader in weight loss, yet after watching this clip and starting to understand more about giving my body what it needs, this PT is maintaining her body (her livelihood) by staying in that suppressed state.

Funny thing is as I have read through this book, I have questioned the amount of calories to be consumed, the amount and type of exercise - all based on what I have been learning here. And the response from the chapters to that attitude is to do with my lack of motivation, lack of will power, looking for excuses because it is hard. It's more to do with the fact I know that I know I don't have 12 hours a week to spend on a treadmill for the rest of my life, I like food, I hate being hungry, I hate feeling weak and tired. I'm not trying to be negative about the book and the author, there are some useful exercises, stretched and recipes in there (although I may have to at least double the portion size of all those meals lol!)

I'll pass on all of this information to my brother in time. Right now I have no credibility. The proof is in the pudding - God I can't wait to be strong and lean and not hungry!

heybales

The US for years would have had no olympic gymnasts if Bela had to do what he trained the girls to do.

False logic to say you can't speak on a matter if you haven't done it. Also false logic to think that someone that has done it has best advice.
That kind of thinking would imply everyone MUST go through the school of hard knocks and can't learn from other's experience.
What a miserable world this would be if that were true - I prefer to learn from mistakes of others rather than have to make them.

aylajane

heybales wrote: »

The US for years would have had no olympic gymnasts if Bela had to do what he trained the girls to do.

False logic to say you can't speak on a matter if you haven't done it. Also false logic to think that someone that has done it has best advice.
That kind of thinking would imply everyone MUST go through the school of hard knocks and can't learn from other's experience.
What a miserable world this would be if that were true - I prefer to learn from mistakes of others rather than have to make them.

This is awesome - thank you

thejoshperson

Yes, the book is right. However, it seems to be just another fad diet! You will lose weight with that program, but it does not sound like a long term approach. EM2WL is a lot like IIFYM, which is definitely more sustainable and is a lifestyle rather than diet. Looking at food as numbers and as the enemy will only discourage you. EM2WL and IIFYM

thejoshperson

...EM2WL and IIFYM are the way to go ****

cherrybomb_77

Well I've lost 60 pounds in the last 3 years, eating 1800-2200 calories a day and exercising 3-6x a week. And the upside is that since I'm not starving myself and overexercising, I don't balloon up if I enjoy the holidays or need to take time off of exercise.

loulamb7

I am your brother's height and loss 50 lbs eating 2200 net calories, with minimal exercise (2-3 hours a weeks), and am now maintaining at 2700 net calories. I use MFP calculations, modified based on experience, and usually eat back most of my exercise calories.