Best article/study/news to give my trainer?
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Yes you can still build muscle on a ketogenic diet.
From what I've seen it's mostly endurance athletes that do well on keto and not necessarily people doing intense resistance training and intense resistance training is your best bet if the goal is hypertrophy.
All that being said, if you're doing well on a ketogenic diet, and you feel good and you can at least train with reasonable intensity then I don't think I'd concern myself too much with what anyone says (trainer or otherwise).
Making a generalization though, I think categorically most people looking to put on muscle will tend to perform multiple bouts of high intensity resistance training and they will tend to do better on moderate to higher carb intakes vs ketogenic diets.0 -
And even on low or minimal carbohydrate, whey protein (20-40g depending on age) will sufficiently spike insulin at levels known to peak the protein synthetic response. So in other words the addition of carbohydrate above and beyond just a plain old shot of dat dere powder isn't going to augment gains in muscle.0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Mehdi of StrongLifts has a good response to that, actually, complete with comparison pictures of him on steroids and another lifter on steroids. Additionally, he explicitly stated that he used them to retain mass while in cut cycles, not for gaining mass.
Also, you don't need an insulin spike from either carbs or GNG, protein itself (not even including gluconeogenesis) will generate an insulin response (whey generates insulin on par with white bread, which is why it's popular among those looking to gain mass). While no one questions that insulin is required for incorporated protein, the exact level is still up for debate.
In lifting, carbs are there less for the insulin spike they can produce, and more for the stored glycogen, which provide the body with the fuel needed for maximum explosive power. Gluconeogenesis is too delayed and too inefficient to rely on for an insulin spike (not to mention the fact that the liver won't produce enough glucose from protein to create that level of insulin unless the person is insulin resistant, in which case the person has bigger issues to worry about than eating for muscle building). Additionally, one can leverage the natural insulin spikes in the body for the extreme performance route. Regardless, you don't really want to rely on GNG anyway, because then you risk breaking down your own lean tissue, and that's the opposite of the goal (not to mention that the more you rely on GNG, the more you're taxing your kidneys).
That said, from what I've seen, carb cycling in one way or another seems to be the most popular for bodybuilding, since it provides the fat burning benefits of low carb with the jet-fuel availability of more carbs, when it's needed, to prevent performance reductions. I don't entirely agree with some of the statements in this article (carbs are not the body's preferred source for fuel in general -- it's the body's NOS system, and like nitrous oxide, it's great at low levels, but high concentrations are bad for the body), but it describes an interesting way to macro cycle that you might be interested in.
Will read up on the Schwarzenegger stuff. I didn't think steroids worked like that, but to be honest I don't really know too much about them. I didn't mean to tar Schwarzenegger necessarily either, just the waters are a bit muddy to lean too heavily on as a source (imho). That said, will read the links
That's interesting re: whey/ protein generating an insulin response without gluconeogenesis. I had actually overlooked that, although from what I remember, the insulin response is much smaller for protein, and we're probably back to the question of whether it gives an optimal response like that from simple carbs, as SideSteel notes below that it does
Actually that was really the only angle I was coming at it from, ie the optimal delivery of protein into the muscle tissues via an insulin response post-training.
Carbs purely for explosive performance I'd ignored actually, and given we're talking hypertrophy as opposed to powerlifting performance, I'd imagine it's not pertinent to the muscle building angle.
Agree about GNG being harsh on the kidneys, and imagine there's a decent amount of it happening in individuals, given the level of protein some ingest, and especially when not bulking, so there's probably a higher rate of protein converted to glucose via GNG to meet energy needs in a deficit.
Will look into the tnation article, if only to learn what NOS means, lol Agree about the effectiveness of carb-cycling for these purposes though.
In any case, thanks for all the links, and informative points and discussion. You seem quite knowledgeable on the whole area, and feel I've learned a few things from this discussion.
I should probably note I'm no bodybuilder, but do like the low-carb way of eating, and may look to build a little muscle when I'm finished cutting/ losing, so that's been my real interest in this conversation, as I don't wish to spin my wheels by eating low-carb if it's not optimal for muscle building.
Anyway, thanks againAnd even on low or minimal carbohydrate, whey protein (20-40g depending on age) will sufficiently spike insulin at levels known to peak the protein synthetic response. So in other words the addition of carbohydrate above and beyond just a plain old shot of dat dere powder isn't going to augment gains in muscle.
Thanks for chiming in with your contributions SideSteel, the above is what I was really most curious about, and your contribution answers one of my main questions
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Ultimately though you'd still have to question whether or not you can perform optimally in the gym on a ketogenic diet and can you sustain the necessary calorie intake sans carbohydrates to fuel muscle growth.
I suspect for most people the answer is no, which is largely why ketogenic diets aren't the answer for MOST people for optimizing muscle hypertrophy.
But that still doesn't mean you can't make progress on it.
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My interest in LCHF research led me
early on to those most publicly successful-
yet, not much celebrated in LC discussions:
Body Builders.
Decades ahead in how to lose body fat,
build physique and strength, they
get it.
One of the trainers most successful
back-in-the-day was Vince Gironda,
trainer to Schwarzenegger, Estrada,
Eastwood, Clint Walker and many
others in the Hollywood Studio system.
Gironda's 'Maximum Definition Diet'
was successful and LC, Cyclic Keto LC,
but LC all the same. My reading of
this diet it to avoid smoothing muscle,
more def with LC CKD.
'Maximum Definition Diet'
at googleImages, SafeSearch On:
http://tinyurl.com/m8xkcqe
Enjoying this discussion.
Not claiming expertise, just interest in
all things LCHF.
Hope you find the right track in training!0 -
Ultimately though you'd still have to question whether or not you can perform optimally in the gym on a ketogenic diet and can you sustain the necessary calorie intake sans carbohydrates to fuel muscle growth.
I suspect for most people the answer is no, which is largely why ketogenic diets aren't the answer for MOST people for optimizing muscle hypertrophy.
But that still doesn't mean you can't make progress on it.
You might be interested in Peter Attia's blog linked in one of the previous posts. He had an interesting post on his blog ((http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance)) on Vo2 and utilisation of glucose and fat as fuel at different Vo2 stages, and looked at it first when on not on low-carb/ keto, and then when he was on keto and also fully keto adapted after 8- 12 weeks I believe. Interestingly at the same V02 levels his body utilised fat more when keto adapted, even at higher Vo2 levels. He did say his max Vo2 output suffered slightly, but then also noted that max Vo2 was something of more academic rather than practical consideration to him in his training.
All in all though, I'd imagine if he can generate the higher Vo2 levels on fat, a fully keto-adapted bodybuilder hypothetically should be able to also, maybe speaking to your question of optimal gym output ?
Practically though, I'd imagine a standard carb diet or some sort of low carb with carbs around workouts is probably a lot easier for most that don't have any other reason to stick to low-carb/ keto.
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iloseityes wrote: »Will look into the tnation article, if only to learn what NOS means, lol Agree about the effectiveness of carb-cycling for these purposes though.
You won't find NOS in that article to my knowledge.
NOS = Nitrous Oxide = the booster system in street racing cars; also - laughing gas (chemical formula is actually N2O).
NOS as a performance enhancement system in cars allows the car to go faster, but only for a short period of time. It makes the fuel burn hotter, giving the car a boost. However, the NOS supply is generally very limited, especially compared to the gas tank. Drivers generally only use their NOS system for a minute or so at a time, and a NOS tank may have about an hour's worth of continual use. (The downside is that you risk burning up your car parts if you haven't tuned them properly.)
NOS is also used in many dentists offices (medical grade NOS is pure, then mixed with oxygen; racing NOS is mixed with sulfur dioxide to prevent abuse). However, at high concentrations, it's very damaging to the body, attacking the nervous system and brain by deactivating B12, and affects white blood cell formation and function.
Ergo, glucose = nature's NOS (in the case of humans, at least). Great for quick bouts of high intensity, but very limited in supply and shouldn't be used all the time, and dangerous to the body if the concentration gets too high (ie - hyperglycemia).Ultimately though you'd still have to question whether or not you can perform optimally in the gym on a ketogenic diet and can you sustain the necessary calorie intake sans carbohydrates to fuel muscle growth.
I suspect for most people the answer is no, which is largely why ketogenic diets aren't the answer for MOST people for optimizing muscle hypertrophy.
But that still doesn't mean you can't make progress on it.
Holy crap! SideSteel is in this group?! When did this happen?! How did I not see this?!
Okay, novelty moment aside...
I've known a couple of lifters who have been successful with keto and lifting. I guess it depends on the definition of "optimal."
If "optimal" == "sustainable with gains as expected for level" then they've got that. From what I've seen, most keto lifters still see this after the initial adjustment period. I think the myth that you lose strength (or even better "lose muscle") on keto comes from not practicing it for more than a few weeks. It takes time for the body to build the systems needed to lift efficiently on minimal glycogen and glucose.
If "optimal" == "maximum everything" then perhaps not, depending on what's measured (it's possible their 1RM may be higher after a carb-up than without, I've never seen them try, though; it's hard to determine whether an individual would gain more muscle when diet is the only variable, since they'd be at different points in muscle gain in a cross-over trial, which itself would have an effect, which leaves us with only speculation, unfortunately).
If "optimal" == "best overall health" then that's probably "it depends" as keto isn't optimal for every person (for those people, it'd be "yes"). They didn't seem to have trouble getting sufficient calories with minimal carbohydrates, but that does largely depend on the individual and how much of a suppressive effect keto has on their appetite.
Ah, gotta love discussions with a large "it depends" factor.
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Dragonwolf wrote: »
You won't find NOS in that article to my knowledge.
Got ya. Carbs as high octane fuel I find a good analogy, and know what you mean now with the comparison to NOS
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Yes you can still build muscle on a ketogenic diet.
From what I've seen it's mostly endurance athletes that do well on keto and not necessarily people doing intense resistance training and intense resistance training is your best bet if the goal is hypertrophy.
All that being said, if you're doing well on a ketogenic diet, and you feel good and you can at least train with reasonable intensity then I don't think I'd concern myself too much with what anyone says (trainer or otherwise).
Making a generalization though, I think categorically most people looking to put on muscle will tend to perform multiple bouts of high intensity resistance training and they will tend to do better on moderate to higher carb intakes vs ketogenic diets.
Ok, I only do a minimal amount of strength only training, so excuse me if I got some learning to do
I came over this podcast in ketogains this week. Although I'm a cardio girl, I found it highly interesting.
It's the blue collar radio with Shelby Starnes and John Meadows interviewing Dr. Jacob Wilson on optimizing resistance training.
Take home cliffpoints:
The right stretching techniques helps hypertrophy.
Ketogenic vs standard carb macro diet in resistance training study: Ketogenic group gained roughly same amount of LBM (4 lbs) and lost a lot of fat (no numbers provided) during 10 weeks. High(er) carb group got same muscle gains, but didn't lose fat. The Keto diet showed best results for those with endomorphic (stocky or apple shaped ?)
Gaining muscle in deficit is possible (anecdotal).
My opinion: I think the whole traditional bulking and cutting cycling sounds very easy to get wrong in the first place. To me it seems like doing TKD/CKD or even SKD correctly combined with lots of strength training is probably a big advantage for those doing it right. For all those that don't do their research first, it's probably asking for trouble. It becomes evident in the podcast that for it to work properly you basically need an individually tailored macro intake in order to optimize performance with keto.
I recommend reddit ketogains sub for those that want to combine keto with sports. It's an active group with lots of interesting information.
Edit: There is a growing number of top athletes who openly admit they're doing LCHF. Although Lebron James recently had a miss. I'd think people like him would NOT RISK changing something as crucial as their diet, unless they thought that would improve something in their sports carrier.
LeBron James interview on CNN in September 2014.0
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