rotating in front crawl
yogicarl
Posts: 1,260 Member
- a technical question about front crawl.
- I had been rolling side to side and breathing ok with my face half in the water every 3rd stroke, but it still seemed that I was swimming extremely slowly.
- then it occurred to me that maybe the roll should come from the hips, leaving the lower body from the hips-down still facing the pool floor all the time. I tried this today and it seemed to work.
- so rather than rolling the whole body on each stroke, the hips and legs stay facing the pool floor and the roll comes from the hips-up.
- any thoughts? am I right?
- I had been rolling side to side and breathing ok with my face half in the water every 3rd stroke, but it still seemed that I was swimming extremely slowly.
- then it occurred to me that maybe the roll should come from the hips, leaving the lower body from the hips-down still facing the pool floor all the time. I tried this today and it seemed to work.
- so rather than rolling the whole body on each stroke, the hips and legs stay facing the pool floor and the roll comes from the hips-up.
- any thoughts? am I right?
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Replies
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For some reason just seen this.
Well actually the whole body rolls not just the upper body.
Doing half the body negates the full engagement of he core, and I suspect could lead to long term injury, so I would say that's definitely a no-no!
So the roll is from the upper body through to your toes so that sometimes it feels you are kicking sideways.
That said the roll is not a 90 degree roll so that you're scissor kicking and all sorts to prevent you from sinking or turning upside down like the plane in that movie with Denzel Washington LOL. More than 45 degrees is probably too much.
And the roll should be fast enough that your pull is not held in suspense waiting for the body to complete the roll, if that makes any sense.
Swim speed overall could be as a result of a number of factors, some of which include the mechanics of the pull for maximum efficiency (eg pulling back and not down towards the pull floor, etc), the stroke rate (studies show most can significantly increase their stroke rate ie no of strokes per minute without too much increase in exhaustion), body position, etc.
I would say those first two alone - stroke rate and pull adjustment - will increase your speed substantially.
Just my 2 cents0 -
Thanks AQ. That's a relief as rotating from the hips-up only was taking a lot of mental effort!
- will look at pulling back as I think I may be pulling down in an arc rather than straight back.0 -
Jumping in here because I sometimes think I'm losing all the headway I have made on keeping my hips/legs up and not dragging...
Are there differing schools of thought about a roll? I used to over-roll, with a definite scissor kick. I did some reading and thought that I was supposed to be breathing turning only my head, which I find really hard, but I see people who appear to have pretty long and straight bodies while turning to breathe. I also read that just turning your head could lead to neck/back strain and I see others who seem to turn with more of a roll.
I think I felt like I had better rhythm when I was rolling somewhat (the trick for me is not overdoing it and getting into that scissor problem), but I've been trying to stay pretty flat. Maybe there are supporters of both? I'm curious because you guys know that I'm new to swimming and I do not want to learn and practice something the wrong way. It's hard enough for me to learn it correctly!
Thanks,
~Curly0 -
Differing school here - I'm from the school where the roll shouldn't translate all the way down through the hips & legs. Too much rotation throws your energy out to then sides instead of it focusing on forward progress. It also leads to an imbalance in the stroke, you can usually see it by watching someone who is rotating too much when they have 1 arm going way up in the air as they reach forward & the other arm almost drags across the top of the water. It's tough to get a good, consistent drive with the kick if the legs are rolling over from 1 side to the other. Another problem that occurs is if there is too much roll the feet will actually cross back & forth over each other (something my son needs to keep himself aware of) & you'll get no drive at all from the kick. Keeping the hips "squared up" (or facing the bottom of the pool) allows the feet fluttering up & down properly, creating the proper forward propulsion. The only roll should come from the natural roll of the shoulders as 1 arm reaches forward & the other pulls all the way past the hip, I notice when I swim it goes down to about my waist....
Just my $0.02, there is no single right (or wrong) method. You need to find the best way for you, & when I make statements about what you "should" do or "how" it should be done, it's strictly based on what I've been taught, what I've tried & what seems to work best for me. PLEASE try any & all advice you get from all quarters until you find the way that's best for you.....0 -
I have no expertise in this matter. However, a few months back (based on some advice Macstraw gave on another thread), I started rolling my torso much more than I was before, almost sort of exaggerating my shoulder rolls. I don't work on holding my legs perfectly flat but I don't try to roll them. I rarely get in the water and swim a mile with just front crawl (I get bored easily and generally cycle through several strokes + drills during my swims). However, yesterday I got in the water and swam a mile with just freestyle, sort of by chance. I wasn't pushing myself -- in fact I felt a bit weary because I'd lifted weights the day before. When I stopped I'd realized that I'd swum the mile faster than I ever had, dropping over two minutes from the last time I'd done this, back in the summer! That could be due to more powerful kicking or pulls, I suppose, but I think part of it is due to the way I roll my shoulders now. (I was, in short, very pleased -- especially since I am not a fast swimmer!)0
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thanks Macstraw. I did seem to be covering more distance per stroke without speeding up or putting out more effort when I was consciously keeping my hips facing the pool bottom and just rotating the upper body. I also practise yoga regularly so twisting is a natural movement in this way for me so should be able to do this without injury.
It was difficult to think about this new approach that first time because I am throwing something else into the equation, but I think I may have found something that works for myself.
thanks everyone for your inputs; much appreciated.0 -
I had a much better swim last night focusing on my hips. I have found that when I really over-rotate, to avoid scissor kicking, my kick stops for a stroke or two. I worked on staying flatter, catching a breath by "checking my rearview mirror," and staying long. You don't want to be in my head when I swim, lol. Lots of talking to myself.0
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Relate it to walking - when you're picking up the pace you aren't rotating at the waist. Your upper body rotates some as you pump your arms (similar to the forward & back, elliptical shape of the freestyle stroke - although not overhead like the stroke) but by the time the rotation gets to your waist it has pretty much stopped. I don't think there's any fear of injury - you aren't forcing a roll or forcibly stopping one, you're just becoming aware of what the different areas of your body need to be doing. Some people will thrive with more of a roll because it suits their stroke, but it's been my experience that keeping the hips flatter allows for better propulsion.....
One thing I have found is that things like time drops, feeling like you're moving more easily through the water, etc. come more from improvements in efficiency than from pure yardage. Getting the yardage in is an important part of it, but a change in efficiency will result in a sudden, larger drop in time. Many times it makes it so that you can swim further because you aren't wearing yourself out as much, you're getting more "bang for the buck" per stroke & you can last longer.....
On the bright side, I get back to the pool tomorrow for the rest of this week. It'll be enough to shake the rust off, but I will miss the next week for my treatments. I'll miss some days after that, probably that following week - but then the vast majority of the days should be good & I'll be back on track. I can feel the effects of being away & I'm really looking forward to getting back to it.....0 -
The one thing I found that works every time for cutting down my lap time is this. Someone in the next lane swimming a little faster than me
On the stroke/rotation front, I'm noticing that when I focus on the rotation and stretch, I reduce my strokes per length (25yd) from 24/25 to 20/21 and can shave 4 to 5 seconds off a lap. I have been able to hold this pace for about 30 to 40 laps but not yet for a the full 110 lap swim. Baseline is between 58 and 60 seconds per lap.0 -
Not sure I'm that aware of my rotation (I think of myself as parallel to the pool floor, and mainly twist the upper body - as taught by my swim coaches) but I have noticed a trend for time increases. For me it is noticeable once I have done one of my 'FITATFIFTY' routines - F is fast as you can, T is 'top and tail' ie lengths with half slow and half full out sprint etc.
It is hard work, and involves lots of me gasping for breath between laps after the sprints. So I don't feel like doing the routine that often!
But it also makes me hitch up a speed notch when I go back to more continuous speed swimming...0 -
Wow so much on rotation.
Here are 2 more quotes to throw more spanners in the works.
Lol!
Sheila Taormina, Swim Speed
"How much hip roll is too much or too little? Just as the S- pull pattern has been taken to extremes by some swimmers, so too has the idea of rolling the hips.
If a swimmer overrotates the hips, then every other part of the body must wait for the hips to finish. We need to remember that swimming is a synchronous sport; no component of the stroke can move at a rate faster than the others. The pull should determine your rate of turnover; therefore, every other aspect to your stroke should match the rhythm of that. Hip rolling in and of itself does not propel us forward.
The most important function of the hip roll is to accentuate the power from the propulsive pull. Use the hips enough to maximize your power, but remember that additional hip rolling beyond that not only gives zero return but is actually detrimental to the overall rate- of- turnover side of our important equation (Number of Strokes) × (Rate of Turnover) = Time. You do not even know what propulsion or rate of turnover means, so you stare at me blankly. I just ruined your day, because you were feeling pretty good about yourself for having done so beautifully what your friend told you to do. I walk away thinking, I need to write a book".
Paul Newsome, Swim Smooth
"A good freestyle stroke technique has between 45° and 60° of rotation to each side on every stroke, not just when they breathe. This helps the swimmer use the large muscle groups of the core, back and chest to help drive the stroke. A swimmer with poor rotation tends to overuse the small weak shoulder muscles, which soon fatigue. A swimmer should rotate between 45° and 60° on every stroke they take. THE KEBAB STICK VISUALISATION Imagine that your body has been skewered on a kebab stick, running through your head and body down to your feet. As the kebab stick is rotated your body rotates as one with the legs, hips and shoulders rotating together. Rotate ‘as one’ along your long axis, as if you were skewered on a kebab stick! Many swimmers feel they should kick vertically at all times when they swim but this misconception can really harm your rotation. Instead you should kick with your rotation: Mr Smooth’s kick also rotates with his body roll.
Swimming posture and rotation are heavily related and by swimming with your shoulders back and chest forwards you will naturally drive better rotation into your stroke.
It should be stressed that when the body rotates with each stroke the head should stay stationary and not move with the rotation of the shoulders (with the obvious exception of rotating to breathe). It is very common to see people move their head around on every stroke when they’re trying to develop their rotation but this adds drag and may cause dizziness or even nausea, especially in turbulent open water.
A great tool to help you monitor your rotation is the Finis Tech Toc. This neat device sits on your lower back, held by a strap around your waist. The Tech Toc has a large ball bearing in it that slides up and down the tube, making a loud ‘click’ when it hits the end. The ball bearing will only slide and hit the end of the tube if you are rotating sufficiently. If you’re struggling to develop your rotation, the Tech Toc is a very worthwhile investment in your swimming. The Finis Tech Toc is a great tool to help you develop your body rotation. Taking Rotation too Far Whilst good rotation is important, you can take it too far. In the 1990s many swimmers were taught to ‘stack their shoulders’ by trying to rotate to a full 90° in an effort to swim more ‘fish like’; incredibly you will still hear this advice offered in some places on the internet today. In full- stroke freestyle swimming you should avoid rotating to 90° at all costs as it will cause you to lose balance and want to topple onto your back. To regain your balance you will need to part your legs and so create a large amount of drag – like opening a parachute – at the rear of your stroke".0 -
LOL, just goes to show even the "experts" don't necessarily agree thus proving to me yet again that there is no single method - each swimmer needs to find the best way for them....0
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This is all really helpful information, especially for an adult beginner. It gives me things to try out in the pool to see what feels right and what doesn't. These topics also make me pay attention to how I'm doing things, and an explanation about how to change something (a kick, breathing, rotation, etc) to see if it feels better another way.
I've learned a lot, just from reading what you all post!
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LOL, just goes to show even the "experts" don't necessarily agree thus proving to me yet again that there is no single method - each swimmer needs to find the best way for them....
Very true. It comes down to what works for you, what doesn't hurt, what helps.
For me, as with most things involving pulling/pushing movement, I feel better when I keep my hips and shoulders in line. The exception being when I am deliberately working across my core in strength training. But even then I avoid getting to far out of alignment.
I'm not as young as I used to be 0 -
Concentrated on the crawl today and discovered I can catch a breath much easier and find a comfortable degree of rotation if I rest my head on the lower shoulder as the upper arm is in the recovering stage (elbow up). Does that make sense?0
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Yogicarl, I saw your post last night but waited until after I swam today to respond because I wanted to see if I got what you meant. I did get it & it does make sense to a point, but when I tried it I found I had to bend my neck down to that side to get my head onto the lower shoulder. I felt like it pulled me off my "axis", when I breathe I do it the same way except for getting my head to the lower shoulder. I try to keep my body aligned as though a pole ran through the top of my head, straight through my body & I turn to breathe as though my head could only spin around that pole. It's probably a minor distinction, but I felt a big difference in my swim. I would just throw out the caveat that if it's comfortable for you to do it & it works or you then, by all means, do it - I'm just posting my findings based on what I'm comfortable with....0
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I had an ah-ha moment last night. A friend I met at the pool suggested that I try using fins on my feet since my kick was good. She said it might help me feel the rotation of the strokes better and my legs wouldn't have to work so hard. I was much better able to feel rotation, just like she said (both sides) AND, I was able to find that elusive pocket of air near my shoulder because I was so much faster. It was tricky because I'm not used to fins, so at times, I felt like I took in a LOT more water than usual (probably because my head wasn't looking straight down), but when I did catch the air in the pocket, I knew it. It's definitely worth doing some laps with the fins on. It's only a 25 yard pool, and the swims speed things up, so it's not as easy to just go down and back as I don't know how to flip turn yet, but it will be nice to have another way to mix it up.
Also, we made a plan to meet at the pool at the start of the Super Bowl to swim and to get video of each other on our phones. Her son was a swim instructor, so she's got lots of advice, which is helpful because she can see me swim.0 -
Fantastic, Curly, great news. Nice work, & the video will help a LOT.....0
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