When to switch to bulk?

madrose0715

I am a 46 year old woman, height approx 5'8.5". 3 years ago, I weighed 245 lbs and over the 3 years have been predominantly on a deficit (some small periods of maintenance) and have gotten down to 155lbs. I follow the TDEE method and use they heybales spreadsheet that indicates I have a 'small' frame and recommends a goal weight of 135lbs. My present body fat (using measuring tape only) and the spreadsheet, is tracking now at 25%

I know I have read many times on the forums that women should generally wait until they are about 22% bf before starting a bulk and I anticipate that if I were to drop to 135-140 lbs my body fat would align with that fairly closely. The thing is, when my friends and colleagues see me and ask about my weight they seem to think I am crazy to consider dropping another 20 pounds. My body is such that I am much leaner up top than at the bottom and so I know they see my protruding clavicles and the significant change to my face and maybe think I am now 'too thin' - which I know I am not. I even had a friend comment more than once that he thinks I have ' a problem'.

So...I enclose a photo which is an accurate representation of my present body. Do you think I can afford a further drop (15-20lbs) before starting my bulk?

SideSteel

I find that people tend to form an image of you in their head and if you go from overweight or obese to a more normal (not overweight/obese) weight then other people will tend to think it looks weird.

I don't say any of this with any judgment at all, it's just an observation and I recall doing that myself to others as well. I had a friend when I was in high school from another state, who dropped about 80lbs and when I saw him after the weight loss I just thought he looked skinny. Knowing what I know now, he was in great shape and at a healthy weight. It just didn't look right in my head.

I'm rambling, but the point here is that I think this is what could be going on.

You've done a great job so far. If I were in your position, I wouldn't bulk right now.

n3ver3nder

You could always continue to drop weight and reassess at 5lb intervals?

Just go with what *you* feel is right, I wouldn't concern yourself with colleagues, crabs in a bucket and all that.

madrose0715

Thanks for your feedback and I agree that my friends/colleagues are just not use to seeing me at a more normal weight. The pic I orginally posted is from last summer - here is one from yesterday. Interestingly, it does *appear* my body composition has changed from last summer although my weight loss since last summer is not much (like maybe 1 or 2 pounds?). Can composition itself change while in deficit? In maintenance?

heybales

Oh sure. Just takes longer.

Hence the cut/bulk cycles usually used as more efficient use of time.

And that ain't no "appear" - you most definitely have transformed, great work.

You needed to compare those pictures too, glad you found an older one.

madrose0715

@heybales; Do I understand correctly that the spreadsheet I am using is one that you created then? If so - I have to say 'thank you!' and that it is a wonderful tool that I have enjoyed using now for almost 2 years. It has been invaluable for me.

Yes, I am glad that I took this second picture the other day. I was actually rather shocked at it because I didn't realize (and it took me some time to accept) that my body had changed since last summer as my weight change during this time has been negligble. Again showing me that sometimes we do not see our bodies accurately.

Interestingly, last night I found the calculator that tells you if you want 'x' bodyfat %, your target weight should be 'y'. In using that, it certainly seems a target weight of 135 is too aggressive for me in terms of starting a bulk and it will likely be somewhere between 140-145 (the calculator indicated for the 22% bf, my weight target should be 150 which is only 5 pounds from now so I may just start my first bulk at 20% bf instead). So, I agree with the previous poster who said to re-assess at 5 pound intervals. I have also adjusted my deficit from 20% to 17% and imagine it will be adjusted again once I hit 150.

tigerblue

Wow! There is a huge difference!! Your latest picture looks awesome! This is inspiring and makes me continue to be hopeful.

I had something of a similar experience in taking a picture last week (my new profile picture) and being surprised at how much better I looked than I thought. I have been struggling with losing and gaining the same 5 pounds for over a year now and get pretty discouraged from time to time. But when I compared to several months ago I was pleasantly surprised. Evidently the lifting does work!

Congratulations on your fitness! You look great and thanks for inspiring the rest of us.

heybales

madrose0715 wrote: »

@heybales; Do I understand correctly that the spreadsheet I am using is one that you created then? If so - I have to say 'thank you!' and that it is a wonderful tool that I have enjoyed using now for almost 2 years. It has been invaluable for me.

Glad it's worked for you, hope you got updates within those 2 years. There was an easy one on Progress tab to find apparent TDEE based on eating level and results.

I don't hear from many of the over 200 that did say they were using it with success for awhile, about 20 reported in with reaching goal. Some use the TDEG given, some wanted more performance gains so made their own deficit. But I know there were more using it than I heard from.

tigerblue

heybales wrote: »

madrose0715 wrote: »

@heybales; Do I understand correctly that the spreadsheet I am using is one that you created then? If so - I have to say 'thank you!' and that it is a wonderful tool that I have enjoyed using now for almost 2 years. It has been invaluable for me.

Glad it's worked for you, hope you got updates within those 2 years. There was an easy one on Progress tab to find apparent TDEE based on eating level and results.

I don't hear from many of the over 200 that did say they were using it with success for awhile, about 20 reported in with reaching goal. Some use the TDEG given, some wanted more performance gains so made their own deficit. But I know there were more using it than I heard from.

Not to hijack this thread, but I will say also that the spreadsheet has been helpful. I am still not quite where I would like to be. Likely because of not being as dedicated to my lifting as I should. I am quite compliant with my cardio and with my calorie goal (although accuracy can be an issue), but a little more hit-and-miss with the strength. I could see the value after two months of being "good" this fall, though.

Your spreadsheet is very helpful, though, as well as your advice.

tigerblue

And again, OP, this post is so inspiring to me!!!! I will think of you every time I want to cheat.

VeryKatie

You look amazing! I just started lifting... can you explain to me what you used for calorie numbers - like how much of a deficit you ate at or didn't... you know? I'm trying to figure this out and you changed so much in a year!

madrose0715

@VeryKatie - Thanks, if you go to the poster 'Heybales' profile from this thread, he has a spreadsheet link that you can download to calculate your TDEE and various deficits. It is quite comprehensive.

I do have another question that I hope I can get an informed opinion on:

Is it normal as you get closer to goal weight, that the rate of loss of LBM increases? For example, when I dropped from 175 to 165, I only lost 2.5 lbs of lbm. When I dropped from 165 to 155 however, I lost 6 pounds of LBM! I am quite alarmed at this. Beyond my protien intake (110-135 gms - my lbm is 116lbs) and progressive load weightlifting 3x/week, is there anything else I can do to minimize the lbm loss over the next 10-15 pounds that I want to lose?

heybales

Any of the losses in winter, where perhaps not as much cardio activity, or going outside sweating?

Blood volume goes up and down depending on amount of sweating you normally experience.
And water is part of LBM.

I'd also suggest this is where inaccuracies start to happen and while they may be below 5%, the resulting lbs can appear bad. Or things are just getting more accurate and they were already off, so no real loss.

This is where you throw in a few more measurements not related to estimating BF%, like upper arms perhaps, or wherever else you've got muscle you want to confirm isn't going down. Progress tab has 2 extra columns for other measurements to watch if using that.

Forgot to mention, with less body that needs blood, there is less too.

madrose0715

thanks, Heybales. I will add in some additional measurements and keep in mind your other points.

husseycd

I don't know that I would bulk. I attempted a small one this winter and have mixed feelings about it. And then yesterday I read this article: bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/ and feel even less convinced of my need to bulk.

I too have had really good results with recomp (maintaining the same weight while continuing to lift heavy) this past year.

VeryKatie

husseycd wrote: »

I don't know that I would bulk. I attempted a small one this winter and have mixed feelings about it. And then yesterday I read this article: bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/ and feel even less convinced of my need to bulk.

I too have had really good results with recomp (maintaining the same weight while continuing to lift heavy) this past year.

I read this and I don't really understand it. He says that to grow myonuclei, you have to eat at a surplus. But then he says not to eat at a surplus (to maintain the same mass is to eat at maintenance). Or is he saying to do a really slow bulk (small surplus)? He isn't clear.

sardelsa

husseycd wrote: »

I don't know that I would bulk. I attempted a small one this winter and have mixed feelings about it. And then yesterday I read this article: bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/ and feel even less convinced of my need to bulk.

I too have had really good results with recomp (maintaining the same weight while continuing to lift heavy) this past year.

I follow Strong Curves and I love Bret, however I still decided to bulk despite reading this article. There are always a few ways to do things. I think it may work in certain cases for certain goals. Some people have fantastic results for recomp, some don't. I bulked because I that was the only way to reach my specific goals. I had to build my body back up, I really had nothing to work with.

Bulking is a mental battle, you have to be very ready for it.

OP you look fantastic btw, congrats on your progress!

madrose0715

@husseycd: I have read that article and I am quite torn on the subject. When I look at the two photos I enclosed in this thread, I can see a change in body composition that took place over 6 months and the scale weight change is negligible. This tells me that I could likely continue with the slower approach and continue to see positive results. I am still not happy with my thighs and would like to see a little more fat off my abs and arms - I think a 22%bf is my ultimate destination.

My attitude is slow and steady is what works for me, so if it takes another year to get there? So what? I am enjoying it and am pleased with the results thus far...My big concern right now is making sure I am eating at the right deficit to slow down the loss of lbm.

madrose0715

Just as an update:

So, I took my measurements today and great news:

Finally got in the 'fitness' zone for BF% (@24%) and my LBM flucuated upwards so it appears the trend of losing a pound would result in a 50/50 loss ratio of muscle and fat is not neccessarily going to happen. I increased my calories the last two weeks, increased my protien intake from approx 110-120 gms/day to 135-140 gms/day and increased the length of weightlifting sessions (including a few extra exercises to each session). Very pleased with the results thus far!

Liftng4Lis

madrose0715 wrote: »

@heybales; Do I understand correctly that the spreadsheet I am using is one that you created then? If so - I have to say 'thank you!' and that it is a wonderful tool that I have enjoyed using now for almost 2 years. It has been invaluable for me.

Yes, I am glad that I took this second picture the other day. I was actually rather shocked at it because I didn't realize (and it took me some time to accept) that my body had changed since last summer as my weight change during this time has been negligble. Again showing me that sometimes we do not see our bodies accurately.

Interestingly, last night I found the calculator that tells you if you want 'x' bodyfat %, your target weight should be 'y'. In using that, it certainly seems a target weight of 135 is too aggressive for me in terms of starting a bulk and it will likely be somewhere between 140-145 (the calculator indicated for the 22% bf, my weight target should be 150 which is only 5 pounds from now so I may just start my first bulk at 20% bf instead). So, I agree with the previous poster who said to re-assess at 5 pound intervals. I have also adjusted my deficit from 20% to 17% and imagine it will be adjusted again once I hit 150.

Amazing difference!