tendon/ligament pain?

homesweeths

When I first went primal/paleo, I also ended up following very strict AIP (no eggs, nightshades, nuts, seeds, I forget what-all). My joint pain slowly resolved over six months or so, but as it went away I noticed tendon/ligament pain that had either always been there, hiding under the joint pain, or developed over the same time the joint pain was resolving.

I couldn't figure out why. I researched, I tried various things. In the end I hypothesized that it was a result of my body de-toxing, I don't remember why I came to that conclusion, though it must have been something I read.

Anyhow, the tendon-ligament pain is back. I would really love to know if there is a way to get rid of it than just trial and error. Is it some dietary deficiency? Am I detoxing again from holiday season indulgence?

Has anyone else had this and dealt with it somehow?

cindytw

I find relief from all pain from Calm Magnesium powder. I take it up to 3x daily if I am having pain.

punchgut

It's possible that you've consumed something that set off an inflammatory reaction, but detoxing is not a thing. Your liver and kidneys detox you in real time; and if they are not working properly, you've got larger problems than your tendons.

Besides that, this is a hard one to tackle without more information. Is it workout related? Food related? Stretching and basic mobility? Is it dehydration? See, a lot of issues come to mind. Are you making sure to eat plenty of off meats with a large collagen content? Are you moving frequently at a slow pace? Are you lifting heavy things? I often fine everything on me is sore if I'm not lifting heavy. Food for thought. But without more context, it's hard to help you brainstorm.

homesweeths

Ah, interesting. I got the detox idea from some paleo book or website. The idea was that toxins get stored in body fat (one reason to eat lean meat or avoid the fat if your budget limits you to eating CAFO animals). On low carb paleo, converting to fat burning means your body is pulling fat (and the stored toxins) from your fat cells for some of your fuel, thereby releasing those toxins, which means your body has to deal with them in real time.

So did I misunderstand something?

Dragonwolf

punchgut wrote: »

It's possible that you've consumed something that set off an inflammatory reaction, but detoxing is not a thing. Your liver and kidneys detox you in real time; and if they are not working properly, you've got larger problems than your tendons.

Besides that, this is a hard one to tackle without more information. Is it workout related? Food related? Stretching and basic mobility? Is it dehydration? See, a lot of issues come to mind. Are you making sure to eat plenty of off meats with a large collagen content? Are you moving frequently at a slow pace? Are you lifting heavy things? I often fine everything on me is sore if I'm not lifting heavy. Food for thought. But without more context, it's hard to help you brainstorm.

I think you're talking a couple different kinds of phenomena that use the same name.

Your body does store things that aren't necessarily great for it in various ways. The gut flora will hold on to some heavy metals. The body's various tissue can hold other compounds. It's called bioaccumulation. Lead, mercury, and DDT are the most well-known sources that bioaccumulate, but there are thousands of others (with varying degrees of danger/toxicity).

Hell, this is how supplements like hyaluronic acid and glucosamine are able to work on repairing/rehydrating joints -- the compounds get shuttled to those parts of the body and incorporated into the tissue. It's also why hair drug tests can detect drug use going back months -- the substances in certain drugs end up in the hair.

Now, some of these -- like the hair -- can't be released once it's used in that tissue, but anything in the fat stores or flora can be released back into the body. When you change your diet, you can cause a "die off" of some types of flora, which release what they're holding and make you miserable for a couple of days. When you lose weight, you liberate fatty acids and any compounds the cells were holding. The liver, kidneys, and GI tract will filter that stuff out eventually, but if the release is substantial enough, it can overwhelm them for a short time and cause symptoms in the body, such as inflammation.

You also have withdrawal, which, especially when dealing with drugs (both legal and illegal), is also known as detox, because it's the time when your body has to work through clearing the crap out of your system. The body does some f-ed up things when going through withdrawal of certain substances, let me tell you.

These things are different from the "fad" idea of "detox" -- i.e. those "colon cleanses" and whatnot. Those are different from the above, and I agree, complete garbage. Your body doesn't generally need special help to clean out the system (though things such as activated charcoal are useful in binding to some of the more toxic substances to prevent them from being re-absorbed into the body and causing more damage; yes, activated charcoal is used in conventional medicine as part of certain poisoning protocols, so it's not just some hippy thing).

That said, I agree with your second paragraph. There are simply too many unknowns to know what's causing the issue.

OP -- it might be a good idea to track your food for a week or two, if you aren't already, and include how you feel at various times of the day. This should help you pinpoint a food or exercise source if there is one. That can help you narrow down the cause of the issue.

Also, if you're not already, start making bone broth and drinking that on a regular basis. If you can get chicken feet, make sure to include them in the broth. This will add a bunch of the compounds that are great for soft tissue support, and far cheaper than supplements. No guarantees (at least until you find the source of your pain), but it might help keep your ligament pain at bay.

homesweeths

Dragonwolf wrote: »

punchgut wrote: »

It's possible that you've consumed something that set off an inflammatory reaction, but detoxing is not a thing. Your liver and kidneys detox you in real time; and if they are not working properly, you've got larger problems than your tendons.

Besides that, this is a hard one to tackle without more information. Is it workout related? Food related? Stretching and basic mobility? Is it dehydration? See, a lot of issues come to mind. Are you making sure to eat plenty of off meats with a large collagen content? Are you moving frequently at a slow pace? Are you lifting heavy things? I often fine everything on me is sore if I'm not lifting heavy. Food for thought. But without more context, it's hard to help you brainstorm.

OP -- it might be a good idea to track your food for a week or two, if you aren't already, and include how you feel at various times of the day. This should help you pinpoint a food or exercise source if there is one. That can help you narrow down the cause of the issue.

Also, if you're not already, start making bone broth and drinking that on a regular basis. If you can get chicken feet, make sure to include them in the broth. This will add a bunch of the compounds that are great for soft tissue support, and far cheaper than supplements. No guarantees (at least until you find the source of your pain), but it might help keep your ligament pain at bay.

You're right, it wasn't a lot of information. It's not workout related. I hurt whether I exercise or not. Food-related -- I did strict auto-immune paleo a couple years ago and slowly reintroduced a few foods, mainly eggs and nuts. Actually, the tendon pain intensified when my diet was at its most restricted. I was taking glucosamine chondritin, vitamin C, probiotics, green-lipped mussel extract, and the joint pain was resolving, even as the tendon pain grew. I researched like crazy but about all I could come up with, besides a sobering description of a chronic condition (of which I thankfully can't remember the details, as I threw away that info when the tendon pain resolved) was the "toxins" theory.

I stretch. I drink much more water and tea than I log. I walk very slowly (1.5-2mph) three times a day for a distance of about two miles total. I wish I had the money to go to a gym and lift. I have attempted some bodyweight exercises on my own, but not consistently.

I guess I was looking for random "this helped for me" comments to do a reality check against. Cindytw, thank you for mentioning Calm. I compared its ingredients to my magnesium citrate supplement and they're very similar. I upped my dosage (I'd been only taking 50% of the recommended daily dose) and the pain has improved.

I am looking into collagen supplements, to boost what I'm getting from bone broth and paleo eating. I've quit dairy again, except for butter, and I may quit that and simply have coconut oil in my coffee, to see if that helps.

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, punchgut and Dragonwolf.

punchgut

Hey Homesweeths-

What Dragonwolf is describing is the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and it's fairly well known and documented. It is less due to bioaccumulates and more due to endotoxin like lipopolysaccharides. Generally, this is associated to the introduction of antibiotics that cause a massive die off of gut bacteria. It is sometimes associated with drastic changes in food, but in your case you seem to have been eating along the same lines for awhile. This would leave me to discount it, but I'm not an MD. The SCD diet blog has a good write up on this. http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/06/5-die-off-myths-everyone-needs-to-know-about/

Now, when it comes to ligament/tendon pain, I think of overuse, not stretching the muscle or stretching into the ligament/tendon. Ligaments and tendons are not meant to stretch. When people stretch they are lengthening their muscles. Stretching into the ligament/tendon actual causes micro-tears. Tendinopathy, et. al. To tight a muscle can also cause this from daily activity. But any of these would cause localized pain/irritation, and though you've not said, you seem to be describing whole body. This would lead me to suspect something along the lines of fibromyalgia. The inflammation causing this could be food related, or something else you ingest. If you are following a primal lifestyle, I would suggest that you start to avoid the big four: eggs, dairy, nuts, and excessive fruit/honey. Another thing, underuse can also case discomfort of muscles, tendons and ligaments. Underuse causes a shortening of the muscles that will put stress on tendons, which can affect the bone to bone connections.

Some reading: http://chriskresser.com/is-fibromyalgia-caused-by-sibo-and-leaky-gut

I would worry less about the gym and heavy lifting right now, and focus more on getting your walking speed up to 3, 3.5 and 4 mph and try and fit in an hour daily. That will do more for getting some weight off and using the body for movement. As you feel better you can try lifting, but body weight exercise is really great especially as we age. Body weight squats, push-ups, pull-up or chin ups (assisted to help), planks, and bridging can all help with your weight loss and building strength while increasing movement. You don't need to do the exercises in a cardio fashion. Time under tension is what will help the muscles. As they get stronger they'll help assist in the weight loss too.

You also want to try and balance out your omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acid intake. This makes a huge difference in the inflammatory response.

Best of luck.

homesweeths

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to read up on fibromyalgia. It hadn't crossed my mind because I don't have muscle pain, and that's what I thought it affected. I also don't have the fatigue and brain fog that friends with fibro talk about. (Maybe they have chronic fatigue, too?)

Paleo/primal eating gives me plenty of energy and fairly good quality sleep (except when the tendons are acting up -- and you're right, it's whole-body pain, perhaps a bit more concentrated in the feet, knees, and hamstrings, but not confined to those).

I do walk an hour a day, most days, broken up into two or three walks. Unfortunately, 2mph is about the best I can do right now. It's not that I get out of breath, or that my muscles need more conditioning, it's that if I try to go faster than a pace that only hurts a little (which right now is 2mph), everything seizes up and I end up hobbling home and in pain for hours. *sigh* It's a far cry from my regular "10k-in-90-minutes" walks a couple decades ago, before the cartilage in my knees broke down, probably due to inflammation from eating all the wrong things.

I plan to keep on walking an hour a day, and try to be more consistent with the bodyweight exercises, which my brain equates with tooth flossing. Not my favorite thing to do, but necessary for health. Someone showed me some modified moves that I could do safely, without doing further injury, now I just need to do them.

punchgut

Fibro is kind of a catch all. You don't have to have every tick point.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/bone_joint_and_muscle_disorders/muscle_bursa_and_tendon_disorders/fibromyalgia.html

tshirtartist

I was having some tendon issues which I was thinking might have had to do with 9 years of being vegan which is what lead me to Paleo. It helped but did not cure my trigger thumb and achellis tendon. What seemed to help the most was supplement called wobenzym. Have been taking it for 2weeks now and almost everything is gone. Might be something worth looking in to.

homesweeths

Thank you. I've heard of that, a long time ago, from the naturopathic doctor who helped our celiac daughter. Will look into it.

Notreadytoquit

Undeserved muscle/tendon pain, immune inflammation, fibromyalgia, & herxheimer all in one thread and no mention of lyme. Classic presentation, but there are also many bacterial infections, parasites, viruses, etc. that can cause all these symptoms. Is the most extreme pain in your Achilles tendons? If yes that is a red flag for lyme and/or it's confections.

Paleo people ... close to the land and hunter / gather lifestyle at least philosophically probably spend more time than most in the great outdoors increasing their chances of an encounter with an unseen lyme carrier. Took me decades and one very wise doctor to figure out this same mystery in my life.

Tuck your pants into your socks when you go out for a walk. Long sleeves, white shirt, pants and socks will allow you to spot vectors before they get to you. Start a log of symptoms and duration. Time may reveal patterns that lead you to the cause of your pain.

homesweeths

Good advice. My tendon pain has been pretty general, though. Strongest in knees (outer tendon or ligament, whatever it is), elbows, hamstrings, tops and sides of feet. But sometimes seems like an overall ache. Not muscles, though.

Nutmeg76

Do you have psoriasis?

Nutmeg76

Also, how are your vitamin D levels?

KombuchaCat

I started having some weird joint tiredness and achiness especially in my feet/ankles and knees. I have never had this before and it started about mid 2014. Along with this I began to feel REALLY fatigued and some other things I won't take the time to list Of course all of my numbers on testing came back normal and the doctor was like maybe I need to work out more and eat better. OK sound advice but the discomfort was enough that it was starting to get slightly debilitating, or at least really discouraging. I came across some info about iodine deficiency and it sounded like me to a T so I started taking nascient iodine daily. The joint weakness/pain went away almost immediately and all my other minor but irritating issues have also resolved almost completely.

homesweeths

Nutmeg76 wrote: »

Do you have psoriasis?

Psoriasis involves skin, right? No, my skin doesn't seem to be affected.

homesweeths

Nutmeg76 wrote: »

Also, how are your vitamin D levels?

I'm careful about vitamin D ever since I had a D reaction a year or two ago. It's amazing how D can add up. It apparently was in my kombucha and/or kefir, and I know it was in the cal-mag and salmon oil I was taking. (I only realized that after I started troubleshooting and re-reading the labels on stuff I had been using for months -- be careful of your supplements! They may have more in them than you realize.) I had read about D supplementation in our rainy climate and got some good quality D, got a little sunshine by the way, and within a few days reacted.

Horrible itchy rash everywhere I had exposed skin. I worked out that it was D toxicity, and the rash resolved, but only after two weeks of misery.

I know the ideal would be to go get levels tested before and after supplementing, but doctors cost too much.

homesweeths

Since I started the collagen, my tendon pain has resolved almost completely. Feeling some joint pain today, probably has to do with the cool drizzly weather after a week of mild sunshine.

homesweeths

tshirtartist wrote: »

I was having some tendon issues which I was thinking might have had to do with 9 years of being vegan which is what lead me to Paleo. It helped but did not cure my trigger thumb and achellis tendon. What seemed to help the most was supplement called wobenzym. Have been taking it for 2weeks now and almost everything is gone. Might be something worth looking in to.

Spendy stuff! Do you have a recommended retailer?

KombuchaCat

homesweeths wrote: »

tshirtartist wrote: »

I was having some tendon issues which I was thinking might have had to do with 9 years of being vegan which is what lead me to Paleo. It helped but did not cure my trigger thumb and achellis tendon. What seemed to help the most was supplement called wobenzym. Have been taking it for 2weeks now and almost everything is gone. Might be something worth looking in to.

Spendy stuff! Do you have a recommended retailer?

I gotta say, I think many of my issues were from being vegan for 3 years. The more I look into it the more I think that being vegan is not healthy or natural for humans long term. Yes, you can get your Omega 3's, calcium, and other stuff like that from plants but it's not bioavailable for use by the body in the same way it is from animals. I know I keep harping on the iodine thing but I think that being vegan likely made me low there because I was not eating any fish, dairy or eggs which are the best sources other than seaweed which is really the best...but I don't eat a whole lot of seaweed so bam...iodine deficiency...I also wasn't getting any gelatin or collagen...when I think about how misleading vegan literature is it's sort of upsetting. Sorry I didn't mean to turn this into an antivegan rant and I'm not against people doing it for the spirit of loving animal and not wanting to kill them but our biology is what is it is.