Exercising on FDs

iwannabeonthebeach
iwannabeonthebeach Posts: 146 Member
edited November 12 in Social Groups
Have an unexpected work-free day tomorrow (Monday) and while still planning to have a FD I'm wondering about taking the opportunity to get some exercise, but what's the rule for exercising on FDs? My FDs are usually around 500-600 cals. I read somewhere that its not a great idea to do any strenuous exercise as you are depriving yourself of the fuel you'd get from eating normally, but I was thinking a gentle walk into town and back again (approx 2 mile round trip) would be OK?
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Replies

  • JJA14
    JJA14 Posts: 82 Member
    edited February 2015
    I can't see any reason at all why a walk like that would do you any harm. I have done proper exercise on fd, and sometimes it's been too much for me: For example - cycling to and from work, 6miles each way - that was way too much, I felt sick, almost vomited and almost fainted, but I put that down to how unfit I was. Last week I did an hour of Zumba and that was absolutely fine.
    - I don't know if there are any 'rules' on exercise but as with everything else about 5:2 I would be tempted to say find out what suits you!
    - and enjoy your day off!
  • cal0rina
    cal0rina Posts: 111 Member
    I usually exercise on fast days and feel fine, I swim for 30-60 minutes. The first 10 lengths are hard, but to be honest they always are fast or food day.
  • melaniecheeks
    melaniecheeks Posts: 6,349 Member
    There are no rules - I ran a 10k training run on a FD last week.
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    There are no rules. A stroll like you're describing should go well. More strenuous activity takes phasing in. If you get dizzy, it's often too little salt.

    Consider that the body is a very conservative entity, it HATES abrupt changes. So it's easier to make the diet plan work if you got the eating protocol in before you start putting in higher performance exercise too.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    Your body has two basic energy stores - fat and glycogen.
    If you are eating normally on your non-fasting days your glycogen should be just about fully topped up. That's normally enough for two hours strenuous exercise.

    When you are walking you will be mostly fat burning anyway. You should be fine.

    At first hard exercise on a fast day would make me wobbly and dizzy but I've adjusted completely now to fasted training.
  • orlcam
    orlcam Posts: 533 Member
    There have been some studies that support the notion that more fat/calories is/are burned on workouts at the end of a fast (before eating). Many body builders use this method. If the regimen is extreme then many will follow their workouts with supplements such as branched-chain amino acids and/or protein mixes. This supposedly helps the body recover faster and prevents any muscle loss (i.e. burns fat not muscle).
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    @Orlcam. The jury is out whether fasted exercise is better for fat loss or not.

    Personally, I believe fasted training improves FAT loss, compared to flat kcal burn in fed state. By logic it would seem that exercising when the liver is glycogen depleted would potentially lead to more fat oxidation. Meaning when you're not constantly stuffed with food, you give the body a better context to burn stored fat.

    In contrast, if you've put in oatmeal or BPC intake to power the workout, the body is busy metabolizing that intake = less fat loss from the stored fat DURING the exercise after meal.

    To complicate matters even more, it seems the ability to INVITE the body to fat oxidation also relies on a quite complex combo of the right enzymes, hormones and action potential of genes. Get the hormonal balance right "repair" the metabolism. And, yeah...the levels are individual.

    BUT, the effect on the individual is unknown. I train when it suits my day, fasted or not. Getting too hung up on protocols is a stress factor that's NOT good for weight loss.

    TL;DR Fix hormone balance and you lose more fat.
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    Fasted cardio does work better for optimal fat loss, according to this podcast with legendary Chris Aceto

    The whole podcast is worth listening to, if you're into lifting. He starts talking about fasted cardio for optimal fat loss at 44.30 minutes into the broadcast. Funny that I stumbled over this today.
  • jknight001
    jknight001 Posts: 745 Member
    Well, there is cardio at level 1 and cardio at level 15. Does that make a difference in this equation?
  • miriams76
    miriams76 Posts: 138 Member
    I've been doing my exercise on FD's by doing it before breakast then fasting rest of the day afterwards. I'm too weak by 2-4pm to do it in the evenings. As I can't function without breakfast, I find this easier than fasting all the way to dinner time.
  • kcd1961
    kcd1961 Posts: 126 Member
    I have no problem with exercising on fast days. In fact I usually feel better and more energetic on fast days. Do it and see how it works out.
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    @miriam. If you need brekkie to power your exercise, that's up to you. You still get the health benefits from exercise, but most of the burn will be spent burning up your breakfast, ie. the glucose in bloodstream and glycogen in muscles first 20 min. AFTER that you burn from 60-40 % in KCAL from fat, depending on intensity. Once fat is put into storage they are harder to pry loose.
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    jknight001 wrote: »
    Well, there is cardio at level 1 and cardio at level 15. Does that make a difference in this equation?

    Depends what your goal is. If your biodiesel body mostly run on sugar, you spend the first 20 mins of every workout depleting sugar. Because sugar is fast and preferred to use by body.

    So if you exercise more than 20 minutes, THEN your body goes: "Hey, if you aren't gonna stop that, I'm gonna have to snipe off some of the precious FAT!" Meaning: If you eat a lot of carbs at each meal, you'll spend a big part of those 60 minutes of exercise ONLY burning sugar.

    LIT (low intensity) is kinder to the body, invites more production of mitochondria (energy factory) in cells, and burn roughly 60% fat.

    BUT. Although HIT or training above 80% of max pulse burn about 40% fat (after 20 min) the TOTAL kcal burn is higher, so the overall fat burn is bigger if you exercise for 1 hour.

    BUT. Don't get too caught up in maths and details. Exercise is mostly for health and as an investment for a better metabolism and hormone balance in future. (too long to explain now).

    TL;DR Yes, it matters what intensity. Higher burn is great. (but don't get injured). Low intensity works too for fat loss, if longer sessions.

    Edit: And then some people may think: "What do I care. I'm losing steady anyway"

    Do what works for you. Please remember the phrase optimal fat loss, meaning most energy and time efficient method. You can lose weight by other methods too!
  • jknight001
    jknight001 Posts: 745 Member
    @foamroller -thanks for the detailed explanation. It really helps me to know how this works.

    You must be a fantastic spin instructor. You really know your stuff!
  • JJA14
    JJA14 Posts: 82 Member
    Foamroller - you're a spin instructor? I'm doing my first ever class tonight! Any tips?
  • Foxgym
    Foxgym Posts: 59 Member
    edited February 2015
    Interesting, Perhaps some confusion abounds due to the variety of types of fasting. 16/8 style Intermittent fasting has long been used in body building circles, but they do it every day and restock glysogen and protien straight after a workout, they also eat their full TDEE in the 8 hr window. Our 5:2 model uses minimal eating on two days so it's not been designed around the body building template. Now this does not mean we should not do a workout. We are all going to have a different response for me it means training at around 80% which is an amount I have found beneficial, if I push harder I feel very tired the next day (but thats me). Today I will hit the gym and be doing 40 minutes of weights but at 80% of my normal effort. (lower weight higher reps less intensity) then after my workout I will have a bowl of Chicken noodle soup and a satsuma. for me this approach is supporting my lean muscle and burning fat. Bottom line is experiment and see how you feel to find what works for you.
    All the Best :)
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    @Foxgym. What a coincidence you say 80% max pulse works best for you. One of my coaches at the gym just said that keeping just below or around 80% is max fat loss zone. Compared to effort, restitution and time spent.

    Yes, if you go to 85% or more you're probably into or close to your lactatate threshold (can be improved) Which means the strain is much harder, especially after already doing lifting, like you do.

    If you want to expand and improve your hearth health, I suggest doing a couple of bursts all in, for example 20-50 seconds once a week. If you do this regularly you'll expand your lactate threshold = getting fitter running up stairs etc.

    Sounds like you found a key that works for you. Cheers :)
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    JJA14 wrote: »
    Foamroller - you're a spin instructor? I'm doing my first ever class tonight! Any tips?

    Yes, I got the certification in January from national college of sports science, so not just the average "gym education program".

    If you're brand new to spinning and are in bad shape, go GENTLY first two weeks. Your bum will be sore in the knots, but it passes or you can buy a gel cushion.

    So here are my tips for spinning:

    1. Accept that you're a noob, and that things are awkward/a bit painful at first. Exercise is very MUSCLE SPECIFIC. So even if you're a bikini fitness model, does not equal being good at biking or running. You get good at what you train for.

    2. Listen to the instructors about technique. Good tech gives you more power per step and prevents injuries. (stable core, slightly arched back, straightforward elbows and knees, bent elbows, shoulders DOWN) Make sure the seat and handlebar are adjusted to your body. Seat is level with hips when standing next to the cycle. Once I forgot to check and 20 mins went by, I could NOT press pulse into 93%. Turns out the seat was about 2 cm further back than normal :(

    3. Listen to the instructor. At the start it's good to try out different instructors. Some like whipping boot camp style. Some use babytalk voice...Some hardly talk at all. Find the style that motivate you best. I enjoy instructors that either teach me something or are encouraging sans babyvoice.

    4. Don't listen to the instructor. Ok, confusing. I found that when I stopped slavishly following the instructor cues, my cycling improved dramatically. Because it made me listen to MY BODY instead. Granted you're already have the basics of spinning in and you're getting bored. Let's say you want to improve standing cycling stamina. No class has a 10 minute interval with standing only. (Great for core, since you're supposed to not wiggle at all) So, do according to your mini goals.

    5. Make mini goals. Just like in weight loss journey. Baby steps. Increase gradually in tiny steps in the following order: Length, speed, intensity. This is the order the muscles "like" to progress. That's why many get injured cause they go full throttle on methods their body is not adjusted to. And then give up, cause they feel like failure. In practice it would be like extending a session with 5 mins, or a sprint with 5 seconds. Or pushing your pulse up to a certain level.

    6. If you get hooked on spinning...yes, it's almost a cult ;) and you find yourself at the gym doing it at least 2x a week. Buy MTB cycle shoes with cleats. They improve the force a lot! I wasted a lot of time for 2 years cycling in running shoes :'( Cycling shoes make it so much more fun and powerful. Cycling gear is ridiculously expensive. I'm talking padded shorts etc. I still haven't bought any of those, so you don't have to splurge.

    7. Buy a HRM and take a max pulse test. This really took my training to another level. The body is a very smart and efficient energy sparing entity. So when I "felt" that I was working out, my brain lied to me ! My pulse gave me a rude awakening to both performance and kcal burns.

    Although not a perfect metric, watt cycles are best, HRM is still one of the most accessible metrics (that you also can use doing other stuff like walking or running).

    8. Challenge yourself regularly. This goes for any training. Try a new thing (to you) at least once a week or once per session. Being curious and just see "what happens if I...?" is a great way to find new and better ways to do things or motivate you to go out of comfort zone.

    9. Make conscious choices for your workout. What is your overall goal and what is the goal for this session ? Are you too tired? Do a LIT (low intensity). Cycling is very scaleable, which makes it a great starting point if you got bad knees like me. If you don't breathe somewhat heavily during the session or hardly sweat, then you're in the comfort zone. If you want to be stronger and faster you must be sweating (yes, it's painful). When the sweat is dripping down my face, I know I'm doing a great job, don't even have to look at the HRM.

    10. Train at YOUR level. Don't compare yourself to the neighbor or other people. The only person you should compare yourself to is YOU. Are you better than you were last week or month ? Become a better YOU 2.0 :)

    Edit: Edited for clarity and composition.

  • Foxgym
    Foxgym Posts: 59 Member
    Foamroller wrote: »
    @Foxgym.

    If you want to expand and improve your hearth health, I suggest doing a couple of bursts all in, for example 20-50 seconds once a week. If you do this regularly you'll expand your lactate threshold = getting fitter running up stairs etc.

    Sounds like you found a key that works for you. Cheers :)

    Thanks for the reply Foamroller, and your advice is spot on... I do HIIT a couple of times a week, usually 5x20sec all out with 30sec rest this boots my vo2 max, though I am not a strong responder sadly. I also love cycling and walking, though not running, I have a slight bow in my legs causing slight muscle imbalance, I guess we are not all built to run.

    :)

  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    @Foxgym. When you start nailing those bursts, extend in increments of 5 secs OR increase amount of bursts by one. Increasing 5 secs is more gradual than quantity of bursts. IF that is within your goals !

    We did 10 bursts at 1 min/30 sec rests during the course. Omg, I thought I was about to die at #5. But it took me into 93% in the last two bursts. Felt incredible after. Working out anaerobically gives that power feeling and a nice cocktail of adrenaline, cortisol and beta-endorphines too. Addictive!

    Edit: On superhero days, I can now be above 93% for 2-3 mins as PR. But it has taken a lot of time and effort conditioning my body to do this. Currently I'm working more on endurance. I really want slow twitch muscles to produce more mitochondria!
  • Foxgym
    Foxgym Posts: 59 Member
    Thanks Foamroller I will give that a go :D
  • JJA14
    JJA14 Posts: 82 Member
    edited February 2015
    Thanks foam roller - That's a lot to take in all at once! But many thanks, I'm sure I'll refer back to it. I think my mini goal today will be to complete a class!
    J
  • JJA14
    JJA14 Posts: 82 Member
    FOAMROLLER...

    I HATE SPINNING!!!

    I have discovered I CANNOT ride an exercise bike standing up! I had to complete the whole class sitting down, but I did do the whole 45mins so that's something isn't it? Please tell me that's something?
    Oh well! I'll try again next week!

    Roll on an easier exercise on Thursday (old lady class...Aqua-aerobics!)
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    @JJA14. Please, you TRIED something NEW. You consciously went out of your comfort zone, to try grow. To me that is BIG step alone. It shows that you have courage :)
    1. Accept that you're a noob, and that things are awkward/a bit painful at first.

    Ok, I hear you and I felt the same way when I started. There was a reason why this was #1 :) Sitting at start is totally ok. Do your thing, train at your level. When you feel you got it down, try standing up. Maybe only for 30 secs. That's why it's called TRAINING. No-one is expected to be experts from the get-go. For example. If you were to teach someone to make your scrumptious curry, would you expect them to not make any mistakes the first time? ...No, cause you know there are little details here and there that only comes from experience.

    Look at the instructor's body, the posture and position. Test other spin classes, go for instructors that are good at giving alternatives. That encourage people to do their own thing, so to speak. Giving alternatives gives people a feeling of autonomy. And you don't feel stupid or bad cause you're not following the herd.
    5. Make mini goals. Just like in weight loss journey. Baby steps. Increase gradually in tiny steps in the following order: Length, speed, intensity. This is the order the muscles "like" to progress. That's why many get injured cause they go full throttle on methods their body is not adjusted to. And then give up, cause they feel like failure.

    At start, just showing up for a class is a victory. Spending a fraction of your time being physcial INSTEAD of flipping the remote or other sitting pastimes. This phase can last for a loooong time. I still maniacally order ticket for a class every day and debate whether I'm actucally going to go or not, haha.

    I hope this made sense, if any questions, feel free to ask :)
  • JJA14
    JJA14 Posts: 82 Member
    Thanks for the lecture. Does that mean you want me to put the wine back in the fridge now as well?

    [JOKE!!]

    Seriously - I'm very proud that I've given it a go. I am booked for a different day next week so I'll see what that instructor is like, although I don't think there was too much wrong with this one.

    I am trying to do different exercises every day to keep me into activity - even if it's just the wii at home, or walking son to school.

    Thanks again - I hope you don't think I was being too negative I am just a sarcastic Northerner!
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    No, not too negative. I recognized what you described and I think it's pretty representative to anyone who goes from total sedentary. So yes, give yourself some slack here. Change is HARD. Our systems (body and mind) are very conservative. It takes conscious effort to change. And that's why we are here, cause at some point going on autopilot doing the same thing over and over just wasn't working out anymore.
    I am trying to do different exercises every day to keep me into activity - even if it's just the wii at home, or walking son to school.
    - This is VERY good :) If you keep thinking like this, you WILL GROW.
  • jknight001
    jknight001 Posts: 745 Member
    Foamroller wrote: »
    Depends what your goal is. If your biodiesel body mostly run on sugar, you spend the first 20 mins of every workout depleting sugar. Because sugar is fast and preferred to use by body.

    I was thinking about this and wondering if I have fasted and have had nothing to eat for 10 hours before a workout would I still burn sugar or does the body go straight to the fat?
  • jknight001
    jknight001 Posts: 745 Member
    JJA14 wrote: »
    FOAMROLLER...

    I HATE SPINNING!!!

    You may have had your spinning resistance level set too high. You should be able to stand up for at least a few minutes. Also, a different instructor might fit your personality better, so I was glad to see you are trying someone else.

    Spinning does take some time to get used to. Give it a chance before you say it is not for you. I always like to go and imagine myself in the Tour De France. Made the class more fun. :blush:
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    edited February 2015
    jknight001 wrote: »
    Foamroller wrote: »
    Depends what your goal is. If your biodiesel body mostly run on sugar, you spend the first 20 mins of every workout depleting sugar. Because sugar is fast and preferred to use by body.

    I was thinking about this and wondering if I have fasted and have had nothing to eat for 10 hours before a workout would I still burn sugar or does the body go straight to the fat?

    Short answer is "yes", the long answer is probably more "it depends".

    Why yes ? If everything works as it should, you are most likely glycogen depleted after 10 hrs fasting before workout. Which means that you're low on glucose as fuel. Which means that if you're a sugar burner you feel weak or dizzy at training. Cause the mitochondria (energy producing factories) are not yet adjusted to burn fat for fuel. So you burn from stored fat, but I don't know in which ratios or other numbers for this.

    Why "it depends" ? If you are metabolically damaged like I am, the hormones are not doing their job signalling the cells what they're supposed to do. Throw in factors like high stress levels, genes, action potentials, microbiome in gut (helps digest carbs), have you taken antibiotics lately, medication, general mood, traumatic events, were you born with a cesarian bla,bla,bla...there are A LOT of events the body has to deal with!

    Don't overthink it, hun. There is a constant flux of energy production, energy spending and storage. Not black and white, more like a continuum. If fasted workout works for you, do it. If not, then don't :)

    Edit: What worked for me is to IF and LCHF for weight loss. And from the research I've done so far, it seems that is the way to go for those of us who have a very hard time losing weight the "normal" way.



  • jknight001
    jknight001 Posts: 745 Member
    edited February 2015
    Again, thx for all of the info. I feel so smart. :)

    Do you eat high protein as well? And for fat, only healthy fats or can you get away with the higher saturated fats?
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