How long until you saw insulin sensitizing effects?

Dragonwolf

Okay, so I figured this was the best place to post this, since we have the most variety of people, and there's a fair-sized contingent of people with insulin issues. I have PCOS with insulin resistance, and do all this in an effort to reduce my insulin and blood sugar levels, so that I might have a chance at losing weight.

I do what could probably be described as "borderline keto." I have my carb limit set to 40g total carbs per day, though sometimes, I'll be as low as 11g and as high as about 55g. I've been in keto about as much as I've been out of keto with this, and I'm pretty okay with that. I don't really have adverse effects from swinging back and forth, and my weight doesn't generally fluctuate much. I've been doing this for a few months, now. I'm not perfect with it, but I'm easily about 90% with it and working on tightening up as I find places to do so. (Prior to being at 40g, I was at 75g for several months before, and have had a cap of 100g for a couple of years now, so I'm no stranger to reduced carbs in general.)

I also do a loose 16:8 fasting. If I consume anything before 11am, it's a Bulletproof Coffee, then I'm done eating around 7pm. Any fluctuations are based off hunger (morning) or schedule (evening), but are pretty consistent. I've been doing this for about a month, now.

Finally, I've started lifting and walking again, since the weather has improved in my area, and my back issues have gotten to the point that I can lift again (I was down and out for several months, due to degenerative disc disease). I've been doing these for about a week now. I walk about a mile every day, and lift heavy twice a week.

Now, I know it's going to take time to see results, but what I don't know is how long is a reasonable amount of time to allow for changes in insulin sensitivity. I've been tracking my morning blood sugar, and it's been consistently playing hopscotch on the 100mg/dL line. The lowest I've seen it since tracking is 95mg/dL. It's spiked as high as 122mg/dL (not good), and even this morning, after a good day (where more than half my carbs came from non-starchy veggies, I was spot on 40g, and I had lifted and did a walk), I had 107 staring me in my face (and only went down to 103 after my walk).

So, for those that have been able to manage their blood sugar/insulin issues with similar diet/lifestyle changes, how long did it take for you to see results? What tweaks did you have to make to get things to fall into place (if any)?

wheatlessgirl66

Background: I went for 3 years without eating wheat or many grains. As a result, most sugar was gone, too. My weight and blood sugar didn't change much at all--very discouraging! In February, my glucose tested at 97mg/dl and my insulin at 114. I began eating LCHF on March 1, and my fasting glucose was 92. I've been keeping carbs around 20/day since then, and this morning my fasting glucose had dropped to 77. Not too shabby! I've lost 5.6 lbs since March 1, which is really good in comparison to what I've done previously. I hope this trend continues!

Healthymom_5

wheatlessgirl66 wrote: »

Background: I went for 3 years without eating wheat or many grains. As a result, most sugar was gone, too. My weight and blood sugar didn't change much at all--very discouraging! In February, my glucose tested at 97mg/dl and my insulin at 114. I began eating LCHF on March 1, and my fasting glucose was 92. I've been keeping carbs around 20/day since then, and this morning my fasting glucose had dropped to 77. Not too shabby! I've lost 5.6 lbs since March 1, which is really good in comparison to what I've done previously. I hope this trend continues!

This is great! Gives me hope!
Thanks OP for this thread. Will be watching!

wabmester

Dragonwolf, I'm not understanding something. Are those post-prandial blood sugar numbers you're posting? If so, they are in the normal range.

The improvement with insulin sensitivity should come with weight loss. They say you should start seeing results with about a 10% loss.

The low-carb aspect, as I understand it, primarily helps keep blood sugar in check if your pancreas isn't producing enough insulin. It also reduces the IR side-effect of high triglycerides in the blood.

The LC low-TG mechanism is pretty interesting. Turns out it's not due to a reduction in DNL (as many LC'ers think), but perhaps due to a faster clearance of TG in the blood related to chylomicron uptake in the liver.

EDIT: OIC! By morning measurements, you mean fasting. Yeah, that 122 reading is high, but I would look more at the trend or average.

wabmester

I know you want personal experiences, but here's the data from Volek and Phinney:

Carbohydrate Restriction has a More Favorable Impact on the Metabolic Syndrome than a Low Fat Diet

At the end of 12 weeks, the LC group lost about 10% of their weight, 20% of abdominal fat (!), and had about a 10% reduction in fasting blood sugar.

Dragonwolf

wabmester wrote: »

Dragonwolf, I'm not understanding something. Are those post-prandial blood sugar numbers you're posting? If so, they are in the normal range.

The improvement with insulin sensitivity should come with weight loss. They say you should start seeing results with about a 10% loss.

The low-carb aspect, as I understand it, primarily helps keep blood sugar in check if your pancreas isn't producing enough insulin. It also reduces the IR side-effect of high triglycerides in the blood.

The LC low-TG mechanism is pretty interesting. Turns out it's not due to a reduction in DNL (as many LC'ers think), but perhaps due to a faster clearance of TG in the blood related to chylomicron uptake in the liver.

EDIT: OIC! By morning measurements, you mean fasting. Yeah, that 122 reading is high, but I would look more at the trend or average.

Those are morning fasting numbers (usually, the only thing I've done between waking up and testing is take a shower), which is why they're a problem. Additionally, I have insulin issues independent of my weight, due to PCOS. Said insulin issue is also known to completely halt my weight loss. So there is no "lose some weight and the blood sugar/insulin will correct itself." It simply doesn't work that way for me. I have to correct the insulin before the weight will move.

Also, TG aren't an issue, here. They were 72 last time I had my blood drawn, about a month ago.

Here's my trend line:



...which is why I'm asking.

wabmester

Gotcha. I posted the Volek study about the same time as your post, in case you missed it.

12 weeks for that group. I know nothing about PCOS, but wouldn't the IR mechanism be the same? The exact mechanism doesn't appear to be known, but everywhere I look, it appears to be associated with liver fat.

Keliandra

For me...After 3 weeks back on low carb I was able to drop my insulin from 50 units to 30. I tried 20 the other night and my body isnt ready yet.

Dragonwolf

wabmester wrote: »

Gotcha. I posted the Volek study about the same time as your post, in case you missed it.

12 weeks for that group. I know nothing about PCOS, but wouldn't the IR mechanism be the same? The exact mechanism doesn't appear to be known, but everywhere I look, it appears to be associated with liver fat.

Can you link it again? I can't seem to find it and would be interested in checking it out.

According to conventional medicine, the IR mechanisms are the same, but from my experience, I have doubts on that. They may be similar enough to get away with things like Metformin, but given the interactions between all of the hormones in the body, I suspect it's far more complex than the medical establishment is currently willing to admit.

wabmester

It should be 5 posts north of here.

Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19082851

PDF:
http://yoga-konopka.de/pdf/Volek09LowCarb.pdf

Dragonwolf

wabmester wrote: »

It should be 5 posts north of here.

Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19082851

PDF:
http://yoga-konopka.de/pdf/Volek09LowCarb.pdf

Thanks for this. Shame it only shows 0 and 12 weeks in the data. Would love to see more granularity.

wabmester

Just noticed this study mentioned in the main discussion board:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18678372

Women with PCOS, particularly those with IR, present a significantly decreased BMR.

Probably something you already knew, but it helps explain why it's so difficult to lose weight.

DittoDan

Dragonwolf wrote: »

<snip>

Now, I know it's going to take time to see results, but what I don't know is how long is a reasonable amount of time to allow for changes in insulin sensitivity. I've been tracking my morning blood sugar, and it's been consistently playing hopscotch on the 100mg/dL line. The lowest I've seen it since tracking is 95mg/dL. It's spiked as high as 122mg/dL (not good), and even this morning, after a good day (where more than half my carbs came from non-starchy veggies, I was spot on 40g, and I had lifted and did a walk), I had 107 staring me in my face (and only went down to 103 after my walk).

So, for those that have been able to manage their blood sugar/insulin issues with similar diet/lifestyle changes, how long did it take for you to see results? What tweaks did you have to make to get things to fall into place (if any)?

Hi Dragon,

I have been a diabetic, insulin resistant, metabolic syndrome, morbidly obese person for 15+ years. These were my meds I was taking for the past 10 years or so:

Glipizide 10mg @ 2X day (squeezes your pancreas to get more insulin out of it)
Metformin 850mg@ 2X day (makes your cells more receptive to insulin)
Injecting Lantus fast acting insulin at each meal, usually 40 to 60 units @ meal
Injecting Solastar slow acting insulin @ bedtime 40 to 50 units
Losartan 1X day for high blood pressure
Simvastatin 1X day for high cholesterol
Advair for seasonal asthma
Vitamin D2 50,000 units 1X week

There have times pre-Keto that I had insulin spikes of 300+ and 400+ routinely. After I started the Ketogenic diet, instead of being a peaky and valley curve, my glucose leveled out to more like hills (now they ONLY vary about 60 points everyday).

Now, its 7 months on Keto, my carbs are a tiny bit better than your numbers. About 20 - 40 @ day. These are my current meds:

Metformin 850mg 2X @‌ day

With all that said, my current glucose numbers are ranging from 120 to 180. And my endocrinologist and myself are the happiest people around. He was so happy, he told shook my hand and congratulated me and told me to keep doing what I am doing.

On one of my documented water fasts (a few months ago):

Blog #9 Fasting, Diabetic ~ Glucose/Sugar Levels

Look at my numbers. That's just drinking nothing but WATER for 4 days! I don't think you can get any lower carb than that. To me they were the best ever for me.

I am really befuddled why you are concerned the least bit about your numbers. To me they are ultra-super perfect. You should be dancing & partying with those numbers. If I had numbers that good, I would probably go eat a whole pineapple and end my Keto diet.

So, tell me, why are you worried about your numbers? Are you using a standard glucose meter, maybe you are using different measurements/units? I am using number from a standard meter that everyone uses in America.

When you say things like:

"The lowest I've seen it since tracking is 95mg/dL. It's spiked as high as 122mg/dL (not good)," and "I had 107 staring me in my face (and only went down to 103 after my walk)."

"Not good"! and "staring me in the face". I am not trying to be mean, but I am almost mad/angry. Who in the H*LL told you that was "not good"???? If your doctor is telling you that, I would fire him/her immediately. A spike is when your sugar goes up to 300 to 400! I'll tell you something else, when I got that high, I felt perfectly fine. They only thing is that you get really thirsty and pee a lot.

So, I am trying to figure out your concern, I Googled "PCOS Diabetic" and read that women often have insulin resistance and diabetes. You obviously DON'T have diabetes with numbers like that! You have great/wonderful/"I-wish-I-had-your-numbers!".

Have you talked to endocrinologist about your numbers? He would "high-five" you with numbers like that!

I found my program that I used to download my glucose levels from my meter, here is a graph of my blood sugar (this was a couple years ago). Yes, I was taking all the meds I listed above.

Please note not only did I go higher than the meter measured (400) but anything below the red line is what we (diabetics) call "going low" or hypoglycemic low blood sugar. When you take insulin in the wrong amounts or time it wrong, you can go low. Its a horrible feeling. So all in all my numbers varied from a low of 30 then spiked to over 400. About 370 points.

The green area is normal range. You can see the graph better if you click on it.




Please note, that when I was going up and down like that, I was normal, healthy person. I never got sick, not even a cold.

If a spike of 15-25 glucose points makes you worried, concerned, frustrated or have any negative feelings, I would take your meter outside and take a sledgehammer and smash it into dust sized particles. Or if you get those feelings again come back and look at THIS post and study my graph, then you will see what sugar spikes are all about.

I hope this helps you...

Dan the Man from Michigan
My Blog: It's Ketogenic or Bariatric (How I found the Ketogenic Diet)
Keto Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology Used in LCD & Keto Discussion Groups
My Past Discussions (lots of easy Keto recipes and other useful Keto info)
My Blog: Intermittent Water Fasting & Keto

Dragonwolf

I am really befuddled why you are concerned the least bit about your numbers. To me they are ultra-super perfect. You should be dancing & partying with those numbers. If I had numbers that good, I would probably go eat a whole pineapple and end my Keto diet.

So, tell me, why are you worried about your numbers? Are you using a standard glucose meter, maybe you are using different measurements/units? I am using number from a standard meter that everyone uses in America.

Because those numbers, after 12+ hours in a fasted state, aren't super perfect for someone who isn't Diabetic (I'd argue that they're only "good" for someone who is). In fact, for someone not yet diagnosed (and actively trying to avoid getting Diabetes), those numbers are very bad.

If those were post-meal numbers, and my meals included carbs? Sure. Those would be fantastic numbers, but those are overnight fasted numbers.

From Chris Kresser's article (emphasis mine):

According to continuous glucose monitoring studies of healthy people, a normal fasting blood sugar is 83 mg/dL or less. Many normal people have fasting blood sugar in the mid-to-high 70s.

While most doctors will tell you that anything under 100 mg/dL is normal, it may not be. In this study, people with FBG levels above 95 had more than 3x the risk of developing future diabetes than people with FBG levels below 90. This study showed progressively increasing risk of heart disease in men with FBG levels above 85 mg/dL, as compared to those with FBG levels of 81 mg/dL or lower.

What’s even more important to understand about FBG is that it’s the least sensitive marker for predicting future diabetes and heart disease. Several studies show that a “normal” FBG level in the mid-90s predicts diabetes diagnosed a decade later.

Conventional medicine says anything below 100mg/dL is "normal," while 100-125mg/dL is pre-diabetic, and above 126mg/dL is full-blown Diabetes.

I am not trying to be mean, but I am almost mad/angry. Who in the H*LL told you that was "not good"???? If your doctor is telling you that, I would fire him/her immediately. A spike is when your sugar goes up to 300 to 400! I'll tell you something else, when I got that high, I felt perfectly fine. They only thing is that you get really thirsty and pee a lot.

Who told you that a fasting blood glucose of about 100mg/dL for someone who isn't already an insulin-dependent Diabetic are good?

A spike of 300-400 is not normal and does not happen to people who have a normally-functioning pancreas. 400mg/dL is also "you're lucky you're not in a coma or dead" territory.

Conventional medicine accepts that blood sugar levels over 140mg/dL causes nerve damage, though some studies report that over 120mg/dL is where it actually starts. I have enough neurological issues, I don't need that adding to it (and if my fasted numbers are pushing 120mg/dL, that means meals with carbs are likely pushing it even higher).

Sorry if you're offended by what I'm saying, but I know the facts. Please keep in mind that I'm not yet insulin dependent like you are, and that I'm coming from the side of prevention as a high-risk individual. Fasting numbers over 100mg/dL is a huge red flag, especially knowing that my insulin is already about 5 times what it should be to keep the blood sugar at that level.

So, I am trying to figure out your concern, I Googled "PCOS Diabetic" and read that women often have insulin resistance and diabetes. You obviously DON'T have diabetes with numbers like that! You have great/wonderful/"I-wish-I-had-your-numbers!".

Women with PCOS often have insulin resistance, but Diabetes can be prevented if caught soon enough and steps are taken to do so. No, I don't have Diabetes yet, but it's starting to knock on my door. One of the better doctors I've had saw my glucose and insulin numbers a couple of years ago, when my glucose was still in the low 90s, and my insulin was "only" 18, and even said that those types of numbers are not "if" but "when" Diabetes will develop, if something isn't done to intervene.

Frankly, I would much prefer the ability to test my insulin levels at home, because that's what matters more to me. I've found a pretty strong correlation between my insulin levels being lower (under 15) and actually being able to lose weight (considering even on 2000mg Metformin per day, my insulin was still 19 last I had it checked while on it, and I still wasn't able to lose weight this last time I was on Metformin, while whenever it was able to get it under 15, I was able to lose weight, even on the same amount of food). Unfortunately, there is no home test for it, and it can only be done by going to a lab (usually via a doctor), which doesn't make more regular monitoring feasible, so by-proxy testing with glucose is as good as I get. Though thank you for prompting me to do a few post-meal tests, since according to the article I quoted above, fasting numbers of 90s isn't uncommon. Still subpar for monitoring insulin, but you have to work with what you have.

If a spike of 15-25 glucose points...

Bear in mind these are fasting numbers. None of these numbers are post-meal. Every single one of those had 12+ hours of fasting behind them.

DittoDan

Dragonwolf wrote: »

I am really befuddled why you are concerned the least bit about your numbers. To me they are ultra-super perfect. You should be dancing & partying with those numbers. If I had numbers that good, I would probably go eat a whole pineapple and end my Keto diet.

So, tell me, why are you worried about your numbers? Are you using a standard glucose meter, maybe you are using different measurements/units? I am using number from a standard meter that everyone uses in America.

Because those numbers, after 12+ hours in a fasted state, aren't super perfect for someone who isn't Diabetic (I'd argue that they're only "good" for someone who is). In fact, for someone not yet diagnosed (and actively trying to avoid getting Diabetes), those numbers are very bad.

If those were post-meal numbers, and my meals included carbs? Sure. Those would be fantastic numbers, but those are overnight fasted numbers.

From Chris Kresser's article (emphasis mine):

According to continuous glucose monitoring studies of healthy people, a normal fasting blood sugar is 83 mg/dL or less. Many normal people have fasting blood sugar in the mid-to-high 70s.

While most doctors will tell you that anything under 100 mg/dL is normal, it may not be. In this study, people with FBG levels above 95 had more than 3x the risk of developing future diabetes than people with FBG levels below 90. This study showed progressively increasing risk of heart disease in men with FBG levels above 85 mg/dL, as compared to those with FBG levels of 81 mg/dL or lower.

What’s even more important to understand about FBG is that it’s the least sensitive marker for predicting future diabetes and heart disease. Several studies show that a “normal” FBG level in the mid-90s predicts diabetes diagnosed a decade later.

Conventional medicine says anything below 100mg/dL is "normal," while 100-125mg/dL is pre-diabetic, and above 126mg/dL is full-blown Diabetes.

I am not trying to be mean, but I am almost mad/angry. Who in the H*LL told you that was "not good"???? If your doctor is telling you that, I would fire him/her immediately. A spike is when your sugar goes up to 300 to 400! I'll tell you something else, when I got that high, I felt perfectly fine. They only thing is that you get really thirsty and pee a lot.

Who told you that a fasting blood glucose of about 100mg/dL for someone who isn't already an insulin-dependent Diabetic are good?

A spike of 300-400 is not normal and does not happen to people who have a normally-functioning pancreas. 400mg/dL is also "you're lucky you're not in a coma or dead" territory.

Conventional medicine accepts that blood sugar levels over 140mg/dL causes nerve damage, though some studies report that over 120mg/dL is where it actually starts. I have enough neurological issues, I don't need that adding to it (and if my fasted numbers are pushing 120mg/dL, that means meals with carbs are likely pushing it even higher).

Sorry if you're offended by what I'm saying, but I know the facts. Please keep in mind that I'm not yet insulin dependent like you are, and that I'm coming from the side of prevention as a high-risk individual. Fasting numbers over 100mg/dL is a huge red flag, especially knowing that my insulin is already about 5 times what it should be to keep the blood sugar at that level.

So, I am trying to figure out your concern, I Googled "PCOS Diabetic" and read that women often have insulin resistance and diabetes. You obviously DON'T have diabetes with numbers like that! You have great/wonderful/"I-wish-I-had-your-numbers!".

Women with PCOS often have insulin resistance, but Diabetes can be prevented if caught soon enough and steps are taken to do so. No, I don't have Diabetes yet, but it's starting to knock on my door. One of the better doctors I've had saw my glucose and insulin numbers a couple of years ago, when my glucose was still in the low 90s, and my insulin was "only" 18, and even said that those types of numbers are not "if" but "when" Diabetes will develop, if something isn't done to intervene.

Frankly, I would much prefer the ability to test my insulin levels at home, because that's what matters more to me. I've found a pretty strong correlation between my insulin levels being lower (under 15) and actually being able to lose weight (considering even on 2000mg Metformin per day, my insulin was still 19 last I had it checked while on it, and I still wasn't able to lose weight this last time I was on Metformin, while whenever it was able to get it under 15, I was able to lose weight, even on the same amount of food). Unfortunately, there is no home test for it, and it can only be done by going to a lab (usually via a doctor), which doesn't make more regular monitoring feasible, so by-proxy testing with glucose is as good as I get. Though thank you for prompting me to do a few post-meal tests, since according to the article I quoted above, fasting numbers of 90s isn't uncommon. Still subpar for monitoring insulin, but you have to work with what you have.

If a spike of 15-25 glucose points...

Bear in mind these are fasting numbers. None of these numbers are post-meal. Every single one of those had 12+ hours of fasting behind them.

Your worrying is unfounded. I am not going to argue with you. You go ahead and stress about your ultra low numbers and miniscule spikes. The worrying will "do-you-in" years before the diabetes will. Both of my parents lived a good life into their 90's (91 & 93) and they both had diabetes. Go ahead and check every hour. You can get a device that does that. And I hope you don't lose sleep over it, because that will "do-you-in" too.

You should be much more concerned about losing your weight than your "high glucose numbers". If I was worried as much as you portend, I would immediately end eating carbs and go carnivore (like Fit_Goat) and I would start immediately water fasting at least once a week and maybe twice a week. My gosh, you are only 27 years old (that's a good thing). Your profile says you need to lose a considerable amount of weight, get with the program and step it up and stop using this miniscule "spike" ~ "high numbers" as an excuse/crutch to be worried.

Below my signature, go to the Really Good Keto Sites link and go to the Fasting section and check out those links. Also study Fit_Goats food diary and emulate it.

I hope this helps,

Dan the Man from Michigan
My Blog: Intermittent Water Fasting & Keto
Blog #11 Really Good Keto Websites

P.S. I have pretty much stopped checking my glucose levels. No need to. Since they are under 200, my Endocrinologist and & are very happy. I just have to keep losing weight, the numbers will get better and better. My diabetes will be cured by diet.
(Last night, I gave my meter to a friend of mine so he could see if he has high numbers. We checked and he was 159 after a lowish carb meal. I told him he was a little high. He has done LCHF in the past and he was going to start minding his carbs again.)

robert65ferguson

I've great respect for both DittoDan and Dragonwolf and the way they are changing their WOE but have been surprised at the tone of the exchange. I also understand that our US friends are happy with a robust exchange of views. As a Type 2 with an HBA1c in the region of 6 - 6.5 my understanding of Diabetes would be more in line with those expressed by Dragonwolf. Sources such as Dr Berstein and Jenny Rhul would also suggest that post prandial readings higher than 120 should at least prompt us to look carefully and take action once the offending food has been identified. The point made by Dragonwolf about insulin measurements is well made. Dr Jason Jung has some excellent material on this. So much attention is focused on blood glucose when the real focus should be on reducing insulin. At this point in time Blood glucose is the best test mechanism we have. Perhaps we can agree to disagree, after all we are the one who have to live with the effects of complications.

DittoDan

Ya know what come to mind for me? Making a Mountain out of a molehill.

In 1979, I saw this movie called, "The Main Event" and it had a scene in it that I have never forgot. I googled it and someone wrote about it, I will post it below. I feel like the boxer that had his lip snipped off and that Dragon has a paper cut. I am dumbfounded.



I mean, lets say she has a valid concern and I am wrong, so what? Diabetes is NOT a death sentence. She is in the right groups and doing the right diet. All her post can do is scare other people, make them stress, worry, lose sleep. I am here to counter her phobia so that others don't share in her phobia and make matters worse for themselves.

@robert65ferguson‌ did you see my glucose chart? Did you see her glucose chart? which one would you rather have? (an answer of "neither" would be a cop out).

In other words, some may take my post as offensive, but I can claim the same. Lets worry when worrying is warranted... paper cuts are not fatal....

Dan the Man from Michigan

Dragonwolf

I'm hands winging worrying over the individual numbers, but the trend I have seen over the past year or so of both my insulin and glucose going up, despite efforts to lower them does concern me. My original post was intended to gauge what a normal wait time would be to see if a given change or way of eating is having an effect and when I could expect I'm getting into "it's been too long, this isn't giving me results" territory.

You should be much more concerned about losing your weight...

Please re-read my last post. I can't lose weight until I get my insulin down. It's not physically possible to do so on any kind of safe, let alone sane, way of eating. I've tried. It takes eating about 800 calories, total, plus intense exercise, every single day to get any kind of results in weight. I would crash and burn and destroy my adrenals before I'd get anywhere significant doing that.

I'd rather fix the underlying cause, which is, at least in part, my insulin levels. I've already found this to be the cause, but need to find a way to fix it, since Metformin appeared to have stopped working last I was on it, and I suffered horrible side effects. If I can get my insulin down to where my body is more apt to burn fat, the weight loss will come fairly easily. I've learned this over the past 8 years that I've been dealing with it.

Mistizoom

I haven't had a chance to digest all the posts, so I will return to the original question. I am not addressing my insulin resistance/PCOS with diet alone, but with diet and metformin (1500 mg metformin ER/day in a single does at night). Prior to metformin, I had fasting insulin of 28-30 mcU/ml (range 2.6 - 24.9 mcU/mL). After adding the 1500 mg met ER, but not low carbing, that went down to 19-20 mcU/mL. In May 2013, after 6 months of low carb eating plus the met, my fasting insulin dropped to a much more desirable 10.2 mcU/mL. In the same period of time, I also lost about 55 lbs. My fasting insulin was 88 mg/dL before low carb, 84 mg/dL at the 6 month test, so not a significant difference. At home I've testing fasting glucose in the 70's at times, but hard to say if there is reliability between the home test and the lab test. I didn't have my insulin and glucose done at last year's check-up, so I don't have any more recent lab results. I continue on the met and low carb diet and have lost another 40 lbs.

GaleHawkins

My meter reading was 98 the other morning after not eating for 16 hours. Before low carbing for very long it was usually lower than that.

kuranda10

a little off top[ic, but how are you tracking glucose in MFP? I have to do it through FitBit.

Keliandra

kuranda10 wrote: »

a little off top[ic, but how are you tracking glucose in MFP? I have to do it through FitBit.

Personally I just added it, and the amount of insulin I use, in the same place I put measurements.

DittoDan

Dragonwolf wrote: »

I'm hands winging worrying over the individual numbers, but the trend I have seen over the past year or so of both my insulin and glucose going up, despite efforts to lower them does concern me. My original post was intended to gauge what a normal wait time would be to see if a given change or way of eating is having an effect and when I could expect I'm getting into "it's been too long, this isn't giving me results" territory.

You should be much more concerned about losing your weight...

Please re-read my last post. I can't lose weight until I get my insulin down. It's not physically possible to do so on any kind of safe, let alone sane, way of eating. I've tried. It takes eating about 800 calories, total, plus intense exercise, every single day to get any kind of results in weight. I would crash and burn and destroy my adrenals before I'd get anywhere significant doing that.

I'd rather fix the underlying cause, which is, at least in part, my insulin levels. I've already found this to be the cause, but need to find a way to fix it, since Metformin appeared to have stopped working last I was on it, and I suffered horrible side effects. If I can get my insulin down to where my body is more apt to burn fat, the weight loss will come fairly easily. I've learned this over the past 8 years that I've been dealing with it.

I understand. There was a point where I decided to stop giving myself the long term insulin, even though I was high-ish (around 200). I stopped because insulin is the "fat" hormone. I didn't want it to interfere with me losing weight. So, last week I went to my endocrinologist and asked him if it was more important to keep my sugars down or lose the weight. His said I did the right thing by discontinuing the insulin and let the glucose level go up.

When you say you want to fix the underlying cause of too much insulin, the only drug I know is what you are using, Metformin. And that doesn't do anything to control the pancreas, it makes the cells absorb/use the insulin, which in turn lowers the levels. You're at 1500mg now. If I am not mistaken, 2000 is the limit. I'm using 1700 @ day. When you say you had horrible side effects, was it diarrhea? If it was, usually you have to suffer through it and your body will adjust (I know other people that had this besides myself). I have done that several times. It takes 3-4 days to get past it.

I have never heard of a way to force your pancreas to limit/reduce insulin, you mentioned intense exercise and 800 calories. Are you sure your not talking about keeping your sugar level down? I'm just curious...or does the intense exercise lower the resistance at the cellular level? (since I never do exercise, I don't know LOL!)

Thank you,

Dan the Man from Michigan

radiii

Dragonwolf wrote: »

Conventional medicine accepts that blood sugar levels over 140mg/dL causes nerve damage, though some studies report that over 120mg/dL is where it actually starts. I have enough neurological issues, I don't need that adding to it (and if my fasted numbers are pushing 120mg/dL, that means meals with carbs are likely pushing it even higher).

Sorry if you're offended by what I'm saying, but I know the facts. Please keep in mind that I'm not yet insulin dependent like you are, and that I'm coming from the side of prevention as a high-risk individual. Fasting numbers over 100mg/dL is a huge red flag, especially knowing that my insulin is already about 5 times what it should be to keep the blood sugar at that level.

I 100% agree with everything you've posted here. I don't know what to tell you to do about any of it and am as sympathetic as I can be when I read about women who struggle with PCOS, it sounds frustrating as hell.

GrannyMayOz

I don't have any knowledge or experience here. Just want to say kudos to you Dragon for doing the research and being proactive for your health *before* issues arise. I wish I'd known all of this and acted on it at your age!

Hoping you can find studies and answers that will help you really soon. I recently found out that if you go to www.scholar.google.com any search that you do will respond with scholarly articles. I don't know if that will help you at all, but I really hope it does.

Keliandra

Dan, the Metformin limit is 2500 mg daily. I was just able to back off of that to 2000 last month!

Dragonwolf

DittoDan wrote: »

I understand. There was a point where I decided to stop giving myself the long term insulin, even though I was high-ish (around 200). I stopped because insulin is the "fat" hormone. I didn't want it to interfere with me losing weight. So, last week I went to my endocrinologist and asked him if it was more important to keep my sugars down or lose the weight. His said I did the right thing by discontinuing the insulin and let the glucose level go up.

When you say you want to fix the underlying cause of too much insulin, the only drug I know is what you are using, Metformin. And that doesn't do anything to control the pancreas, it makes the cells absorb/use the insulin, which in turn lowers the levels. You're at 1500mg now. If I am not mistaken, 2000 is the limit. I'm using 1700 @ day. When you say you had horrible side effects, was it diarrhea? If it was, usually you have to suffer through it and your body will adjust (I know other people that had this besides myself). I have done that several times. It takes 3-4 days to get past it.

I've been put on both Metformin and Metformin Extended Release at different times, the latter of which I was on for over a year. At around 8 months in, I started having diarrhea from it, regardless of what I ate, though it was worse with carbs from any source, including vegetables. Mind you, I was already low carb at that point.

I've always been on 2000mg, because anything less has proven insufficient, and by the way, my last doctor's limit was that 2000mg (she said that was the limit for extended release, but I don't know where she got that info from, since I'm finding 2500). I'm not currently on it, because I've had to find a new doctor (my old one moved out of range), and I wasn't willing to deal with the consequences of it (the GI issues, the B12 depletion) without medical support. There is a shortage of endocrinologists in my area, so I have not yet been able to get in to see one, and primary care doctors are, at absolute best, hit or miss when it comes to understanding PCOS (my last one actually told me that because I'm not trying to get pregnant, it's nothing to worry about; I really wish that had sunk in sooner, so I could have raked her over the coals for that one).

I have never heard of a way to force your pancreas to limit/reduce insulin, you mentioned intense exercise and 800 calories. Are you sure your not talking about keeping your sugar level down?

I'm looking for a way to improve my insulin sensitivity, so that it doesn't require increasing amounts of already high levels of insulin in order to keep my blood sugar level sane. As it stands, my insulin levels are already too high for me to lose weight on a sane amount of food and exercise, and this is quite common among women with PCOS. In fact, there are two ways of eating most commonly known to help -- low carb, or a calorie level and exercise routine that looks nearly anorexic to people who don't know what's going on.

I'm just curious...or does the intense exercise lower the resistance at the cellular level? (since I never do exercise, I don't know LOL!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18334592
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/9/2516.full
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/insulin/insulin-sensitivity.html

DittoDan

One

Dragonwolf wrote: »

DittoDan wrote: »

<snip>

I'm just curious...or does the intense exercise lower the resistance at the cellular level? (since I never do exercise, I don't know LOL!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18334592
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/9/2516.full
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/insulin/insulin-sensitivity.html

Do you do intermittent fasting?

Granny posted a video on the subject.

I do it all the time to break stalls. It is VERY healthy and easy to do. I skip a day of eating.
A person cannot but lose weight, there are no ifs ands or butts about it. It works every time its tried. Some people say, "Starvation makes my body go into starvation mode and I gain it all back". Which is b*ll s**t. or they didn't do the fast right. I have honed it to where it works every time (more details upon request).

I hope this helps,

Dan the Man from Michigan

Dragonwolf

DittoDan wrote: »

Do you do intermittent fasting?

Granny posted a video on the subject.

I do it all the time to break stalls. It is VERY healthy and easy to do. I skip a day of eating.
A person cannot but lose weight, there are no ifs ands or butts about it. It works every time its tried. Some people say, "Starvation makes my body go into starvation mode and I gain it all back". Which is b*ll s**t. or they didn't do the fast right. I have honed it to where it works every time (more details upon request).

I hope this helps,

Dan the Man from Michigan

First, let me say that that's an awesome video. Finally, someone in the medical field that understands that it's about the insulin, less so than the glucose that matters. Thanks for bringing up that video again (I'd seen Dr. Fung's name mentioned a couple of times, but hadn't really put much thought to the stuff mentioned).

That said, like I said in my original post, I do a fairly loose, though rather consistent 16:8 intermittent fasting schedule, and have been doing so for the past month or so. I cannot do a 24+ hour fast (at this time), between my body revolting (my limit is about 17 hours right now), and my home environment not being conducive to success (other people to feed).

Like I said originally, I'm curious about the length of time it's taken for other to see insulin sensitizing effects. I would also love a home insulin test, but unfortunately, no such thing exists, and so, I can only go with what data I can currently get my hands on. As it stands, that's blood sugar (with the theory that lower sugar = lower insulin, given a LCHF diet; unfortunately, it's a poor proxy, but it's what's available, thanks to severe misunderstanding from the medical industry) and weight (with the theory that lower insulin results in weight loss).

However, neither have been affected by any of my changes. By asking others about how long it took them to see changes, I can gauge whether I just haven't waited long enough to see the results in question, or whether I should have seen something by now and need to make changes somewhere.

All the assertions of "one cannot help but lose weight doing X, if you're not, then you're not doing it right" don't make a difference if I am working within the guidelines and still not seeing results (though I can't gauge whether I've allowed enough time, if I don't have a point of reference).

Reminds me of the comment my doctor made last time I had an appointment. I told her I had been going to Title Boxing 2-3 days a week until back issues forced me to stop. She responded with "that's a good way to lose weight." Thank you, Captain Obvious! Too bad you still failed to realized that I didn't lose weight during that time!

You also shouldn't be able to help but lose weight (or at least inches) eating what the calculators say are your sedentary values, then adding two days of high intensity intervals and three days of powerlifting on top of that, without usually "eating back" those calories. Yet, I didn't. For the three *kitten* months that I managed to keep that up (twice, in fact), I didn't.

Don't believe me? Here's my weight for the last three months (no, I have no idea why I gained an additional 10lbs that show up at the beginning).



And before you say something like I'm not weighing every day or something -- I was. I gave up after 2+ weeks at 256.2, when I couldn't even technically enter another value into MFP, because it was identical to the value before that, and the one before that, and before that.

Oh, and think you see a downward trend? Think again. Here's six months:



and one year:



That jump in September is from going off of Metformin (for whatever reason, I gained 10lb pretty much instantly). As you can see, though, I spent three months where my lowest recorded weight was 237.4. At the time, I tried just recording the "lows." The reality was that was a dip, not unlike the one at the beginning of this month. The rest of the time, my weight stayed right about 240, between the "steps" in April and May (239 or so to 242). My weight didn't move despite the fact that I was eating LCHF and working out 3-4 days a week.

My hypothesis is that it's due to not being able to get my insulin down far enough, since the last measurement I had of it was when I was still on Metformin, and was back in about May, and I could only get it measured every 3-6 months or so. It was 19 at the time. As I've said previously, I've only seen weight loss results when my insulin is below about 15. And supposedly, you "can't help but lose weight/fat" on LCHF, weight lifting, high intensity exercise, IF, [insert pet lifestyle choice with high success rate here].

Are you understanding my problem, yet?

DittoDan

Dragonwolf wrote: »

DittoDan wrote: »

Do you do intermittent fasting?

Granny posted a video on the subject.

I do it all the time to break stalls. It is VERY healthy and easy to do. I skip a day of eating.
A person cannot but lose weight, there are no ifs ands or butts about it. It works every time its tried. Some people say, "Starvation makes my body go into starvation mode and I gain it all back". Which is b*ll s**t. or they didn't do the fast right. I have honed it to where it works every time (more details upon request).

I hope this helps,

Dan the Man from Michigan

<big snip>

Are you understanding my problem, yet?

I see it. But I think you want the weight to just drop off easily. You are special, you're gonna have to fight and struggle to get it off. There isn't going to be anything easy. You have a horrible condition with PCOS. I don't see any "fight" in you. I see excuses, like "you can't fast past 17 hours." I also see you will not lower your carbs to a very low level (less than 10). I don't see you saying, "I'm gonna eat 5 carbs a day for a month and see what happens". Have you tried that?

Does every woman with PCOS not lose hardly any weight just like you? Exactly how long have you been trying to lose weight with a lo-carb diet? And how many pounds have you lost on lo-carbs?

Yes, I understand that with PCOS its hard to lose weight, but is it impossible?

If it is impossible, then maybe you should just resolve in your mind some of these thoughts:

• I cannot lose weight on a low carb diet and I should look for another way.
• I cannot lose weight by fasting, because its so painful to do it.
• Its impossible to lose weight on any diet, so I will live with my condition and hope it gets better.
• I will continue to search for 'easy' ways to lose weight that are not painful in any way.

Before I found the Keto WOE, I was going to do Bariatrics. When I researched it for over 4 years, I kept seeing many many women do it and have success. Have you considered that? Of course that will be painful, so I'm thinking that is out of the question.

Ya know, all this may sound mean or harsh, but, on these groups, none of us have our names or any contact info other than the city we live in. This is foreign to me. I have run user groups for over 20 years. I have participated in them since 1988 BEFORE there was an "internet". It was called the "fidonet". We would sign our names. I have two professional groups (as we speak) on GoogleGroups and we post using our first and last names. So, when I signed up to MFP last August, and started reading all the posts, no one would use their names (except for those few people that voluntarily used their names). It was weird, some wouldn't even use their first names. I couldn't figure that out. So, after a while, I thought, maybe there is a reason for that. I'm thinking, that we can post anonymously. That would give us more power to speak freely and not hold back. We can be "bluntfully" truthful one-to-another. And we can give "unsolicited" advice (something you don't do in normal society among friends). Although in this OP you asked, and I am giving my solicited advice.

Sometimes when I hear the word(s), "can't" or "cannot" I ask myself, if the person is grammatically incorrect? The definition of "can't" infers an impossibility. But if you replace the word "can't" with "won't" or "will not" that suggests that you could do it, but you choose not to. That could be part of your problem, you "won't" do this or that.

I hope this helps,

Dan the Mean Old Man from Michigan

P.S. I don't really care to continue this discussion, to me, if I believe all your eloquent words, charts and graphs, I conclude that it is impossible for you to lose weight. I'm done, with posting on this thread, (unless you say something really outrageous!) I'll move on. How about you?

P.S.S. So, please don't kick me off the list just yet (I see you are a leader on this group). I might not be able to help you, but I do try really hard to help everyone on this list and Keto. I'm 58 years old, I get more onery and less patient with people the older I get, probably the gluten and grains I ate pre-keto have screwed up my demeanor...

kirkor

@Dragonwolf‌ what was your caloric deficit those 3 months?