Anyone here who lifts...
IamUndrCnstruction
Posts: 691 Member
I know I have seen a few of you mention it so I thought I would ask in here instead of braving the general forums. 1) Why does everyone bash the machines? I mean, why do they say they are worthless to use and you are only "really" lifting if you use free weights? I understand that freeweights make you use all the support muscles too, so technically provide more of a work out but....I use the machines when I have to, and ummm, they feel pretty heavy to me. I would think that any lifting of heavy things is better than no lifting of heavy things.
2) Is there an alternative to the deadlift that does not require the bending forward (my lungs and heart get VERY angry when I try to deadlift) ? I can do squats but deadlifts are BAD.
3) Are all people who lift weights as elitist as the people in the general forums, or is that just MFP being what it is?
4) When you lift to exhaustion, should you be struggling with the last rep of the first set, or last rep of say, the last two sets?
Ok, I think that's it. I am trying to save up for a personal training session or two, but they are pricey, and I need someone who does not take a cookie cutter approach to things.
Thanks in advance!
2) Is there an alternative to the deadlift that does not require the bending forward (my lungs and heart get VERY angry when I try to deadlift) ? I can do squats but deadlifts are BAD.
3) Are all people who lift weights as elitist as the people in the general forums, or is that just MFP being what it is?
4) When you lift to exhaustion, should you be struggling with the last rep of the first set, or last rep of say, the last two sets?
Ok, I think that's it. I am trying to save up for a personal training session or two, but they are pricey, and I need someone who does not take a cookie cutter approach to things.
Thanks in advance!
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I'm into not hurting myself, so I don't lift much. I do lots of body-weight stuff, and use the machines for some stuff like leg presses and pull-down crunches.
But the answer to all your questions is yes.
You want to work on your form, train all of your accessory muscles, and engage as much muscle fiber as possible. The machines isolate muscles, so they help with none of that.
The "exhaustion" thing is to get your hormones kicking in for new muscle growth. If you're shooting for 5 reps, it should be at the fifth rep. If you can go more, increase resistance.0 -
1. Range-of-motion limitations & compromises, less engagement of supporting musculature and connective tissues
2. Not exact subs, but play with trap bar deadlift, one-legged kettlebell, or SLDL
3. Just MFP and the internet in general
4. Depends on the sets, reps, and rest period
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IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »I know I have seen a few of you mention it so I thought I would ask in here instead of braving the general forums. 1) Why does everyone bash the machines? I mean, why do they say they are worthless to use and you are only "really" lifting if you use free weights? I understand that freeweights make you use all the support muscles too, so technically provide more of a work out but....I use the machines when I have to, and ummm, they feel pretty heavy to me. I would think that any lifting of heavy things is better than no lifting of heavy things.
2) Is there an alternative to the deadlift that does not require the bending forward (my lungs and heart get VERY angry when I try to deadlift) ? I can do squats but deadlifts are BAD.
3) Are all people who lift weights as elitist as the people in the general forums, or is that just MFP being what it is?
4) When you lift to exhaustion, should you be struggling with the last rep of the first set, or last rep of say, the last two sets?
Ok, I think that's it. I am trying to save up for a personal training session or two, but they are pricey, and I need someone who does not take a cookie cutter approach to things.
Thanks in advance!
1) Most machines restrict the range of motion and force you into a specific path. Freeweights require you to balance/stabilize the load. Most freeweights are easier to progressively load.
All that being said, machines are not necessarily bad. In fact there are some machines that could be argued as superior to freeweights. Using a cable for a lateral raise for example, or for a fly type action (line of force of a dumbbell at the top of a fly or at the bottom of a lateral raise are both inferior to the cable for example).
2) Sumo deadlift MIGHT be an option since it would put your torso in a much more upright position. You could also consider sumo rack pulls since placing the bar higher up may reduce hip flexion.
3) I can't speak to this as I don't see the main forums as being elitist. I think there are a select few people who might not handle themselves with tact but that's the nature of the internet.
4) I would counter that with my own question -- why are you lifting to exhaustion?0 -
1. Range-of-motion limitations & compromises, less engagement of supporting musculature and connective tissues
2. Not exact subs, but play with trap bar deadlift, one-legged kettlebell, or SLDL
3. Just MFP and the internet in general
4. Depends on the sets, reps, and rest period
IMO, SLDL will likely be much worse since the lack of knee flexion requires you to increase hip flexion.0 -
Thanks everyone! @SideSteel Maybe "lift to exhaustion was a poor choice of words. I have read that to see good progression you should make sure you are lifting enough to cause you to barely be able to hold proper form by your last rep. I usually do 5 sets of 6-8 depending on the movement. With a 15-30 second break in between. I can not lift anything considered remotely heavy by anyone else's standards, but for me it's heavy and I imagine that is what counts. Anyway, I just wasn't sure about reps and how hard each set should be. Usually I am struggling by the last two sets.
I will try a sumo deadlift as it's the bending from the hip that is the issue (pressure gradients are something I have to watch out for)
Sorry about the elitist comment...I have run into some less than helpful folks before.
I appreciate everyone's feedback. This is all new to me and I am working with some limitations, but the will is there damn it!0 -
IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »Thanks everyone! @SideSteel Maybe "lift to exhaustion was a poor choice of words. I have read that to see good progression you should make sure you are lifting enough to cause you to barely be able to hold proper form by your last rep. I usually do 5 sets of 6-8 depending on the movement. With a 15-30 second break in between. I can not lift anything considered remotely heavy by anyone else's standards, but for me it's heavy and I imagine that is what counts. Anyway, I just wasn't sure about reps and how hard each set should be. Usually I am struggling by the last two sets.
I will try a sumo deadlift as it's the bending from the hip that is the issue (pressure gradients are something I have to watch out for)
Sorry about the elitist comment...I have run into some less than helpful folks before.
I appreciate everyone's feedback. This is all new to me and I am working with some limitations, but the will is there damn it!
In short, you see progression by providing adequate stimulus and gradually increasing that stimulus to cause new adaptations.
Here is one example using the squat.
Lets suppose you squat Tuesday and Thursday and you currently squat 5 sets of 6 reps for 100lbs.
Week 1
T: 5x6@100
Th: 5x7@100
Week 2
T 5x8@100
Th 5x6@105
Week 3
T 5x7@105
Th 5x8@105
Week 4
T 5x6@110
Th 5x7@110
This would be one short example of progressively loading. Your total training volume (pounds moved) is increasing over the course of time. The demands you are placing on yourself have increased incrementally.
Doing this causes improvements in strength and the potential for hypertrophy.
Conversely, there are plenty of people who I see in my gym who train to failure regularly who DO NOT use anything resembling intelligent program design and they make little to no progress.
This isn't to say that training to failure is bad, and it's not to say training to failure and intelligent programming are mutually exclusive -- I just wanted to illustrate this concept so that you don't believe that exertion is the primary variable.
Were I to make a very general recommendation, I'd start by selecting a weight such that you leave 2 to 3 reps "in the tank" on completion of your first set. Perhaps even 3 to 4 given your very short rest periods. You can stay a few reps shy of failure and still make great progress by just using reasonable programming.
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I used to really love weight training and used a mix of machines and free weights. I'm really one for ringing the changes as much as I can to make sure I get *all* the muscles. My dumbbell presses would always have a different angle for the chair back, from flat to totally upright. My leg presses always involved turning my toes inwards, outwards, straight forward to ensure I'd target the entire quad group, not just the centre.
I can't afford to belong to a gym these days, and have had quite a few years break, but I've now purchased some dumbbells, up to 11 lbs each, and my husband has made me an incline bench and I'm doing what I can. I love my treadmill, and now I'm trying to do weights again. It's very satisfying to see how quickly my muscles are responding. They never forget once you've built them!
It feels amazing after a strong workout and I'm so pleased you are enjoying this.0 -
I would recommend a philosophy that I started following a couple years ago which has lead me to more success in the past 3 years than the 20 prior: Find a program that make sense to you and focus solely on that.
I found that I would spend so much effort gathering information that eventually contradicts each other I would get overwhelmed and just stop and there is SO much information out there.
Ideally I stick with books and stay away from chat rooms, online content, and even magazines since they are either unregulated misinformation or about the latest and "greatest" news.
The key thing is "what makes sense to you" so it will likely take several books before you find what you are looking for (hint: the library) and focus only on books that are mainly about lifting not overall health.
Just as an example the three books that have really changed my life.
Financially: Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover.
Weight loss: Gary Taub's Why We Get Fat
Body Building: Frederic Delavier's The Strength Training Anatomy Workout.
There are a couple versions of the last book. One goes into machines while this one is more geared towards free weights and bands for home use.
Hope this helps and good luck!0 -
Park dad that's what I do. It's confusing hearing so my different opinions and I constantly wonder if what I'm doing is "right." I think in the end we have to find what works for us. The gym I go to doesn't have the biggest selection of free weights but I see some really fit gentleman using a combo of free weights and machines.0
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@parkdad73 and @SideSteel Thank you both very much. What you both have to say makes more sense to me in those two responses than any ten other things I have read. I am very much still trying to find what works for me. I see a trip to the library coming up. You guys are the best!
@GrannyMayOz I wish I could say I love my treadmill, but it kind of makes me feel like a hamster LOL!0 -
We have a little TV screen in front of us and play 'virtual scenery' with music videos. I know my favourite route off by heart but I still love it. It's English countryside with cows in fields and thatched roof cottages, and a ruined castle at the end of the journey, it's so beautiful. And keeps your mind off what you're doing
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Now THAT might make a difference, if I felt like I was actually walking somewhere!0
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I can't answer most of your questions. For the deadlift, you could reduce your range of motion if it bothers you. In my program, I lift to "muscle failure." I currently aim for failure at 10-12 reps and I only do one set of each exercise, so try to make sure my weights are heavy enough that I can get to 10, but not past 12.0
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Here's the video I use. Probably not your taste at all, but it gives you an idea. I walk one song, jog the next for 8 songs, then do a couple of sprints of 100 to 150 metres (yards) as fast as I can run before cooling down.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_mORHBUs9KU0 -
The gym I go to has a movie room with treadmills. Ellipticals, and bikes along with the big screen. There has been many times where I've pushed out my time because the movie was getting good.GrannyMayOz wrote: »We have a little TV screen in front of us and play 'virtual scenery' with music videos. I know my favourite route off by heart but I still love it. It's English countryside with cows in fields and thatched roof cottages, and a ruined castle at the end of the journey, it's so beautiful. And keeps your mind off what you're doing0 -
rachel0923 wrote: »I can't answer most of your questions. For the deadlift, you could reduce your range of motion if it bothers you. In my program, I lift to "muscle failure." I currently aim for failure at 10-12 reps and I only do one set of each exercise, so try to make sure my weights are heavy enough that I can get to 10, but not past 12.
My program is muscle failure too. I also try to minimize rest time between sets to 15 seconds or try to do supersets switching immediately between opposing muscle sets. Like push-ups to pull-ups and back.0 -
The gym I go to has a movie room with treadmills. Ellipticals, and bikes along with the big screen. There has been many times where I've pushed out my time because the movie was getting good.GrannyMayOz wrote: »We have a little TV screen in front of us and play 'virtual scenery' with music videos. I know my favourite route off by heart but I still love it. It's English countryside with cows in fields and thatched roof cottages, and a ruined castle at the end of the journey, it's so beautiful. And keeps your mind off what you're doing
At home I use my tablet to watch movies on the treadmill, makes a HUGE difference, and I have done more time to watch the end too LOL
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IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »
The gym I go to has a movie room with treadmills. Ellipticals, and bikes along with the big screen. There has been many times where I've pushed out my time because the movie was getting good.GrannyMayOz wrote: »We have a little TV screen in front of us and play 'virtual scenery' with music videos. I know my favourite route off by heart but I still love it. It's English countryside with cows in fields and thatched roof cottages, and a ruined castle at the end of the journey, it's so beautiful. And keeps your mind off what you're doing
At home I use my tablet to watch movies on the treadmill, makes a HUGE difference, and I have done more time to watch the end too LOL
I don't use a treadmill (don't have one and don't have a gym membership anymore), but I typically go for walks at lunchtime. I tend to listen to podcasts during that time. Helps keep me from getting bored (I'm much more likely to keep the habit going if I have something to zone out to).0 -
Summary... Brains that are unaware of the pain the rest of our body is enduring allow us to train better
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GrannyMayOz wrote: »Summary... Brains that are unaware of the pain the rest of our body is enduring allow us to train better
YES!
Oh, one more question....what is a Smith Machine, and why does everyone hate it? I think it is what my gym has, as it does not look like a regular squat rack. I am still just doing goblet squats and sumo squats with dumbells because the machine looks weird to me and I am self conscious about trying new things in front of people LOL
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I think it's a squat rack with a built-in slider that guides the weights. Probably safer from an injury perspective, but lifters don't like it for the same reason they don't like any machines.
I mentioned that I do body-weight exercises. That includes a single-leg eccentric squat. Good stuff, those squats!0 -
>what is a Smith Machine, and why does everyone hate it?
It forces your body to track the load on a fixed path rather than using appropriate biomechanics. Can jack up your knees and back, and entrains poor form.0 -
Ah..ok. My gym doesn't have a proper squat rack. I am SO not ready for a single leg squat of any sort LOL. I am fat, out of shape and am waiting in line for a new set of lungs...but I will get there. Doing what I can and actually making some progress so far. Just need to find a good program and stick with it.0
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Smith machines are supposed to be terrible for squats but they work well for incline push ups.0
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IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »Just need to find a good program and stick with it.
I keep bringing up body-weight exercises because I think they eliminate most of the hurdles associated with resistance training. No equipment needed. You can do them at home. And you can still do the same sort of progressive increase in resistance.
I'm still in the early stages. I started with regular push ups, pull ups, squats, and some supplemental gym stuff. There are plenty of good books on programs, but I currently like the simple approach provided by Bailor in his Calorie Myth book.
Eventually, I'll progress to the bad-*kitten* body-weight stuff. Try this for inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLa2gyfoHsc
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My husband competes in local "masters" (old fogeys, he's 32) olympic weight lifting comps. I don't think I ever see him lift to failure. Very rarely anyway. I don't either. I usually do a 5x5 routine.
Lifting freeweights is harder than using machines from what I recall. You engage more muscle groups for sure.
Can you do bent legged deadlifts? So you aren't bending over?
I don't feel at all elite for having my own squat rack bar and plates. Just feel lucky that I can work out in the comfort of my own home.0 -
Don't know if you're up for this - I did it once and I was soooo shy in those days, but I won a gym friend. Watch for someone to finish on the machine, tell them you're impressed by (insert something truthful, their weight load, reps, technique...) and would they mind just telling you how to use it/what weight to start at/ how you get into the thing. If you've chosen your person well they will possibly show you thoroughly, you'll have someone by you for your first few reps so you don't feel stupid, and you'll get a big grin out of them every time they see you in the future. Being alone and stumbling is embarrassing! Having someone with you to talk to and/or laugh with makes all the difference.IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »I am self conscious about trying new things in front of people LOL
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IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »Just need to find a good program and stick with it.
I keep bringing up body-weight exercises because I think they eliminate most of the hurdles associated with resistance training. No equipment needed. You can do them at home. And you can still do the same sort of progressive increase in resistance.
I'm still in the early stages. I started with regular push ups, pull ups, squats, and some supplemental gym stuff. There are plenty of good books on programs, but I currently like the simple approach provided by Bailor in his Calorie Myth book.
Eventually, I'll progress to the bad-*kitten* body-weight stuff. Try this for inspiration:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLa2gyfoHsc
Wow! I am all for body weight stuff, and I do squats, sumo squats and goblet squats. But I think you underestimate the weakling that is me. I can not even do a girl push up, though at least I have progressed from the wall to the counter.
@minties82 I am going to try some variations on the deadlift to see if anything works for me. I do a 5X6 but nothing I do is heavy by comparison, just heavy to me . I mean, example, I can only do 15 pound bicep curl, and 10pound dumbell shoulder press. It's better than when I started, but not great by any sense. I don't even think I could bench press the bar by itself(but I haven't tried so I don't know).
@GrannyMayOz I am actually working on a woman that is always there when I am there. She lifts and seems to really know what she is doing. I have spoken with her briefly but am not sure how to approach lifting. People see me with the oxygen tank and get...weird...I'll figure it out somehow though!
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I haven't been able to use it much, but my Krav Maga ranked, Army sister told me to use an app call "Convict Conditioning" for ideas. Working on squats, planks, and wall pushups for the time being to work up to it, but it was nifty.0
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