Theories please!

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Hello all!

So I'm looking for some theories.....some explanation.....on this whole newbie gains thing. I have done a lot of reading on it, so I think I'm somewhat knowledgeable about the concept. Here is where I am looking for some theories though......

1. How "fat" does one have to be to capitalize on the whole muscle to fat concept?

2. How long could this possibly last for?

Everything I read has been pretty general and I'm ultimately just looking for some theories or experiences with this sort of thing.

Why am I asking? Well I am continuing to gain. But I'm losing fat. My body is definitely changing but the scale won't go back down. Now I'm not actually as upset about this as I thought I would be (I had put the scale away for 3 months, no measurements and pics in that time) because I know I'm doing what I should be doing. I love how I train, my deficit is sufficient that I don't feel deprived. But I just don't damn well get the consistent increase!

I started lifting "heavy"....Stronglifts....on November 23 and I am just wrapping up now....end of week 26. I have progressed on all my lifts, have had a couple of deloads to work on form. Cardio on non lifting days.

Anyway, any thoughts or musings would be greatly appreciated :bigsmile: :drinker:

lizzardsm

I'm in a similar situation. Scale hasn't changed much - I can weigh as much as 4lbs below my start and 3 lbs above my start (but I usually weigh pretty close to my start weight). I'm lifting and shrinking. I asked a similar question a while back and was told it could be a combo of newbie gains, glycogen, and water weight that's causing all this. This is all assuming you're actually logging properly/consistently and in a deficit. It doesn't bother me much much either but it's curious.

Very interested in hearing the expert responses!

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Absolutely! That's what I thought 6+ months ago when I first started lifting....but in 6 months I have gained 15lbs....it's not stopping. I was totally optimistic this morning, thinking about water retention, the extra foods I ate yesterday to fuel my PR this morning (still only ate to 2070 calories though), etc etc....

But my body is changing......

I know that I'm losing fat in areas. Is it a fast loss? No. But it's coming along.

Again, not looking to change anything at this point, more just looking for something that resembles an explanation. I've never felt so good in my life. My level of fitness is at a place that I didn't think possible and I keep achieving things that are blowing my mind! I just really do find it so curious!

auddii

Tagging because I'm interested in the response.

Chief_Rocka

You're probably experiencing rapid newbie muscle gains, making it *appear* as though you've lost fat. I doubt you've lost any fat in a calorie surplus.

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

You're probably experiencing rapid newbie muscle gains, making it *appear* as though you've lost fat. I doubt you've lost any fat in a calorie surplus.

I'm not in a surplus.....I've been eating at a deficit. 1800 cals/day. Yesterday I went over because I wanted to PR on my deadlift this morning.....still wasn't at TDEE though.

Chief_Rocka

You're probably experiencing rapid newbie muscle gains, making it *appear* as though you've lost fat. I doubt you've lost any fat in a calorie surplus.

I'm not in a surplus.....I've been eating at a deficit. 1800 cals/day. Yesterday I went over because I wanted to PR on my deadlift this morning.....still wasn't at TDEE though.

I'm confused, you said you gained 15lbs in 6 months.

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

You're probably experiencing rapid newbie muscle gains, making it *appear* as though you've lost fat. I doubt you've lost any fat in a calorie surplus.

I'm not in a surplus.....I've been eating at a deficit. 1800 cals/day. Yesterday I went over because I wanted to PR on my deadlift this morning.....still wasn't at TDEE though.

I'm confused, you said you gained 15lbs in 6 months.

I have......although you do bring up a valid point.....am I severely overestimating my TDEE and this is why I have gained? I have toyed with the idea of metabolic damage before but figured that there was no way that eating at 1200 for a mere 6 months would do that.

While I do freely admit that there are a couple days each month that I eat over 1800 calories (not much more than estimated TDEE at 2400-2500 cal/day) It's most certainly not 7000+ calories worth of food.

And I do weight and measure everything. If I eat out, I look up the calorie content and record it.

Hendrix7

If you gained 15lbs in 6 months you were, on average, in a calorie surplus for that 6 months. Regardless of newbie gains a female isn't going to get anywhere near that amount of lean mass in that time.

You also cannot turn fat into muscle they are two separate things

Looks like you need to re-evaluate your numbers/intake, I'm sure Sara and as would gladly help if you started a thread for that, your Tdee is way off IMO

Did you go straight from eating 1200 to 1800?

Gwyn1969

I've never felt so good in my life. My level of fitness is at a place that I didn't think possible and I keep achieving things that are blowing my mind! I just really do find it so curious!

^^This is what is most important.

My understanding is that most strength gains in novices are neuromuscular. Actual muscle tissue is hard to add and it gets added over time on a calorie surplus plus dedicated strength training. But there is a lot of variance in actual experience. It's possible that you are eating more than you think you are, or that you have great genetics, or both. Either way, good on you!

SteveJWatson

Are you losing inches?

If you are feeling great and losing inches, I wouldn't worry about the scale.

It is curious as to what is happening though.

heybales

As commented, you miscalculated your TDEE, you are eating more than TDEE.

And getting great max benefit from lifting. Hey, at least you were doing that than injured and sitting around!

Obviously not much over TDEE since it's taken so long, count out water weight for stored glucose, but that's going to be probably max 3 lbs, or about 1500 calories worth of glucose stored.
And I'm counting on the cardio doing that to ya for improvement.

Take last 4 weeks from your last valid weigh-in day.
What was avg gross eaten daily?
What was total weight gain?

lbs gained x 3500 / 28 days = daily excess.
Gross eaten - excess = better TDEE estimate for this workout.

Now, that TDEE / current BMR = your personal multiplier for this level of activity for that 4 weeks.

As weight lowers, BMR goes down, use your multiplier to get new TDEE, take deficit from that again. As long as activity level stays the same.

Oh, why 3500 when it wasn't just fat gained, but LBM and hopefully even some muscle mass?
Because studies seem to show you can make even trades of LBM and fat mass while weight remains constant if eating at maintenance. So the same energy is needed, even though much of the LBM gain is water.

And sadly, you should feel the difference in your lifts, but you should be able to maintain at least.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging

HealthWoke0ish

In

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Thank you all for the responses

I gradually worked my way up from 1200 calories....I've been at this since September 2011. I've gone as high as 2000-2200 as well, still lost as well at that intake. It was specifically when I started Stronglifts (November 23, 2012) that the scale started to creep up. Granted, I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I also had an IUD placed on November 28, 2012. From what I understand that *could* account for about 5lbs.....I suppose I had just figured that after 6 months the hormonal imbalance would have sorted itself out.

I know for certain that this *gain* is not "fat". I can see how my body is changing.....other people notice it and I have taken progress pics comparing March 2 to today and there is a difference.

Oh, why 3500 when it wasn't just fat gained, but LBM and hopefully even some muscle mass?
Because studies seem to show you can make even trades of LBM and fat mass while weight remains constant if eating at maintenance. So the same energy is needed, even though much of the LBM gain is water.

This ^^^ is of interest to me as well.

Can you link me to any further information about this?

I will have to give more consideration about my intake and the idea of being in a surplus. I have mulled the idea around today and it's not sitting well that I would be in one....with my height, weight and activity level and I really am reluctant to pull the metabolic damage card honestly......I have been known to sit on something for a bit and then change my opinion though :laugh:

Thanks again friends! I appreciate your time!

kcritter77

In for the science

sarahz5

I honestly am just here to stalk Vegas.

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

I honestly am just here to stalk Vegas.

Only as long as you slap my *kitten* every now and again

Sarauk2sf

Hello all!

So I'm looking for some theories.....some explanation.....on this whole newbie gains thing. I have done a lot of reading on it, so I think I'm somewhat knowledgeable about the concept. Here is where I am looking for some theories though......

1. How "fat" does one have to be to capitalize on the whole muscle to fat concept?

2. How long could this possibly last for?

Everything I read has been pretty general and I'm ultimately just looking for some theories or experiences with this sort of thing.

Why am I asking? Well I am continuing to gain. But I'm losing fat. My body is definitely changing but the scale won't go back down. Now I'm not actually as upset about this as I thought I would be (I had put the scale away for 3 months, no measurements and pics in that time) because I know I'm doing what I should be doing. I love how I train, my deficit is sufficient that I don't feel deprived. But I just don't damn well get the consistent increase!

I started lifting "heavy"....Stronglifts....on November 23 and I am just wrapping up now....end of week 26. I have progressed on all my lifts, have had a couple of deloads to work on form. Cardio on non lifting days.

Anyway, any thoughts or musings would be greatly appreciated :bigsmile: :drinker:

In response to the specific questions:

1) It depends....Factors such as age, gender, newness to training, genetics, diet etc etc. make a difference. It is not a hard cut off - the less overweight you are the less likely you are to make any gains. So, there really is no clear answer to the question. Most (in fact all I think) of the studies I have seen involve newbie gains combined with overweight gains and are generally in younger (or youngish) men, or alternatively, if they are on women, they are on obese untrained women who actually do not show any gains, but they are on a VCLD.

2) Again, this depends. Outside newbie gains, it theoretically can last until you get to a BF% where you are not overweight enough to make any gains. It really is the same answer as 1) above but with diminishing returns the less fat you are.

Now to catch up with the rest of the conversation....

Sarauk2sf

Without being mean, it is highly unlikely that you have metabolic damage with your BF% (sorry :flowerforyou:). The whole Layne Norton metabolic damage videos are re already lean people in contest prep but is being taken out of context.

You *may* have a suppressed metabolism due to medical reasons, and also due to just dieting - but this is not the metabolic damage discussed in those videos. People can have their metabolism messed up from yo-yo dieting and severely restricting calories for a long time, however, your circumstances would not 'fit the bill' as far as I am aware. You also may just have a naturally low BMR.

Doing some math, using some estimated numbers.

You start lifting - 4lb gain in fluids
You have some newbie gains - 2lb in muscle
You may even have some overweight and/or recomp gains/bulk gains - say 4lb gain in muscle (which is on the high side)

Total = 10lb of which 6lb is muscle.

There is nothing I have seen that would suggest that a 11lb or so gain (the 15lb less glycogen/water) would be muscle gains over that period.

alanlmarshall

e=mc2

(smart *kitten* way of tagging)

heybales

Oh, why 3500 when it wasn't just fat gained, but LBM and hopefully even some muscle mass?
Because studies seem to show you can make even trades of LBM and fat mass while weight remains constant if eating at maintenance. So the same energy is needed, even though much of the LBM gain is water.

This ^^^ is of interest to me as well.

Can you link me to any further information about this?

Probably won't be as fast for women, this is men. And to be clear, this is gains in LBM off-setting loss of fat mass. They did NOT measure muscle mass, only as it is a part of LBM, and probably had some increase, but unknown how much.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/778012-potential-muscle-gain-lifting-and-metabolism-improvement

neandermagnon

were you eating at a deficit before? Whenever I've heard of women doing weight training, eating at a deficit, and losing inches but gaining weight (more than just 5lb or so of glycogen/water gains), they were eating at a deficit before, usually either a big deficit or they were in deficit for a very long time. The gains in weight are from a number of different things, they include the following:

- refilling of glycogen stores, which results in water weight gain as glycogen is stored with water. (this is limited, as once the glycogen stores are full, the gains stop)

- increase in the amount of glycogen stored in the muscles

- increase in bone density, due to replacement of bone minerals lost while eating at a deficit

- muscle memory gains due to lean body mass being lost while in a deficit before

- noob gains, due to not having done heavy lifting or equivalent kinds of exercise before

Someone who was sedentary before, but not undereating, may see noob gains and an increase on bone mineral density, as being sedentary leads to loss of bone density. Anyone who's been eating at a deficit, even a sensible, conservative one, will have depleted their glycogen stores somewhat, and will see an initial glycogen/water weight gain after upping their calories, but if that's the only factor, it stops once the stores are full and further weight gain is really difficult and requires a calorie surplus.

All of the above are very healthy changes in the body, i.e. reversing the effects of being sedentary and/or undereating in the past. All of them will result in some degree of weight gain without eating at a surplus. Gaining muscle mass over and above your natural amount (i.e. what you'd have by being active and eating well, but without training like a beast and deliberately eating at a surplus) requires a surplus. But there are lots of ways the body can gain weight, without actual growth of new muscle tissue. this confuses a lot of people.

If you've always been active and eaten well, then I have no idea what's going on!

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Without being mean, it is highly unlikely that you have metabolic damage with your BF% (sorry :flowerforyou:). The whole Layne Norton metabolic damage videos are re already lean people in contest prep but is being taken out of context.

You *may* have a suppressed metabolism due to medical reasons, and also due to just dieting - but this is not the metabolic damage discussed in those videos. People can have their metabolism messed up from yo-yo dieting and severely restricting calories for a long time, however, your circumstances would not 'fit the bill' as far as I am aware. You also may just have a naturally low BMR.

Doing some math, using some estimated numbers.

You start lifting - 4lb gain in fluids
You have some newbie gains - 2lb in muscle
You may even have some overweight and/or recomp gains/bulk gains - say 4lb gain in muscle (which is on the high side)

Total = 10lb of which 6lb is muscle.

There is nothing I have seen that would suggest that a 11lb or so gain (the 15lb less glycogen/water) would be muscle gains over that period.

I'm sorry, you know in retrospect I probably worded my question wrong. I don't actually think that I have *gained* 15lbs of muscle :laugh: I know that is most certainly not the case.

I am still curious about the questions I asked because I thought that there could be a possibility that would explain away a couple of pounds, not all of them.

I also agree with my not having metabolic damage.....I have watched some of Layne Norton's videos on it and figured it was definitely a long shot for me in particular but when examining how 1800 calories *could* be a surplus....well to be diligent I had to give it some thought. Plus I like learning :flowerforyou:

Back in March (when I put away the scale and measurements and pics for 3 months.....I had started to become obsessed with this) I came to the conclusion that the gain was likely 5lbs hormonal from the Mirena and that would work itself out and that 5lbs would be water/glycogen...etc....

So none the less, a 5lb gain AGAIN completely confused me because I thought that after 6 months of lifting, of the IUD and all that good stuff that at the very least, I would have maintained.....so it really did get me thinking.

I mean the good news is that things are happening and I'm changing.....I'm not asking what to change....more just trying to understand what is happening, if that makes sense

Thank you!

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

were you eating at a deficit before? Whenever I've heard of women doing weight training, eating at a deficit, and losing inches but gaining weight (more than just 5lb or so of glycogen/water gains), they were eating at a deficit before, usually either a big deficit or they were in deficit for a very long time. The gains in weight are from a number of different things, they include the following:

- refilling of glycogen stores, which results in water weight gain as glycogen is stored with water. (this is limited, as once the glycogen stores are full, the gains stop)

- increase in the amount of glycogen stored in the muscles

- increase in bone density, due to replacement of bone minerals lost while eating at a deficit

- muscle memory gains due to lean body mass being lost while in a deficit before

- noob gains, due to not having done heavy lifting or equivalent kinds of exercise before

Someone who was sedentary before, but not undereating, may see noob gains and an increase on bone mineral density, as being sedentary leads to loss of bone density. Anyone who's been eating at a deficit, even a sensible, conservative one, will have depleted their glycogen stores somewhat, and will see an initial glycogen/water weight gain after upping their calories, but if that's the only factor, it stops once the stores are full and further weight gain is really difficult and requires a calorie surplus.

All of the above are very healthy changes in the body, i.e. reversing the effects of being sedentary and/or undereating in the past. All of them will result in some degree of weight gain without eating at a surplus. Gaining muscle mass over and above your natural amount (i.e. what you'd have by being active and eating well, but without training like a beast and deliberately eating at a surplus) requires a surplus. But there are lots of ways the body can gain weight, without actual growth of new muscle tissue. this confuses a lot of people.

If you've always been active and eaten well, then I have no idea what's going on!

Thank you so much for this!

I have been "dieting" since September 2011, started out at 1200 calories but then bumped up and up to where I was probably closer to 2000 when I started SL in November (I would have to look at my diet journals to get the exact intake). I also added exercise in around February/March 2012....started playing with dumbbell workouts summer 2012 and then SL in November.

I definitely agree that these are healthy changes for me.....I feel great and the inches are coming off....just not in the same places that I had measured so I actually rely on the pics now instead of the measuring tape.

Sarauk2sf

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