Why doesn't God like amputees?
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I'm just going to leave these here since Soldier4242 brought in some scripture to support his points... odd as that seems.
And yes... I did look these up:
1 John 5:14-15 - And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us
There is a stipulation to prayer that it cannot be filled if it is not in accordance with God's will. Like I said earlier, one action has a subsquent action that may present harm to another. You can't know that, but God does.
James 4:3 - Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.
Prayer is answered when the things ask can fulfill a greater purpose to you and others. But it is not meant to satisfy your every heart's desire because your heart is not wholly divine.0 -
I find tsh0ck's response to be completely vacuous.I'm just going to leave these here since Soldier4242 brought in some scripture to support his points... odd as that seems.
And yes... I did look these up:
1 John 5:14-15 - And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us
There is a stipulation to prayer that it cannot be filled if it is not in accordance with God's will. Like I said earlier, one action has a subsquent action that may present harm to another. You can't know that, but God does.
James 4:3 - Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.
Prayer is answered when the things ask can fulfill a greater purpose to you and others. But it is not meant to satisfy your every heart's desire because your heart is not wholly divine.
As for husky, I like that you were able to find a scripture that puts a limitation on prayer that reaches beyond faith. Now prayer has two requirements.
1. You have to have at least one mustard seed of faith or more.
2. Your request must already be God's will.
This second one is saying a lot more then you realize. If God's will is all that ever happens then prayer is a complete waste of time. God's will is what would happen in the absence of prayer.
So why would the bible have a requirement for prayer that makes it meaningless? I suspect it is because the authors of the bible were just as lost when it comes to the question of the existence of god that we all are. They are just making this stuff up and they wanted their holy book to be prepared to answer the questions that would invariably come up when people's prayers didn't get answered or they believed that they were answered in a way that didn't make sense.0 -
I find tsh0ck's response to be completely vacuous.I'm just going to leave these here since Soldier4242 brought in some scripture to support his points... odd as that seems.
And yes... I did look these up:
1 John 5:14-15 - And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us
There is a stipulation to prayer that it cannot be filled if it is not in accordance with God's will. Like I said earlier, one action has a subsquent action that may present harm to another. You can't know that, but God does.
James 4:3 - Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.
Prayer is answered when the things ask can fulfill a greater purpose to you and others. But it is not meant to satisfy your every heart's desire because your heart is not wholly divine.
As for husky, I like that you were able to find a scripture that puts a limitation on prayer that reaches beyond faith. Now prayer has two requirements.
1. You have to have at least one mustard seed of faith or more.
2. Your request must already be God's will.
This second one is saying a lot more then you realize. If God's will is all that ever happens then prayer is a complete waste of time. God's will is what would happen in the absence of prayer.
So why would the bible have a requirement for prayer that makes it meaningless? I suspect it is because the authors of the bible were just as lost when it comes to the question of the existence of god that we all are. They are just making this stuff up and they wanted their holy book to be prepared to answer the questions that would invariably come up when people's prayers didn't get answered or they believed that they were answered in a way that didn't make sense.
But these scriptures do not render it meaningless. God has the power to invoke changes in our lives, and often, prayer is answered with guidance more than direct interception.
However, (and I'm referencing Dr Who now with the concept of fixed points in time) I think it is more about there are certain things that have to happen and many things that can be changed. God is aware of the things that can be changed and the things that cannot. It is not that he does not have the power to change the things that cannot, but that the subsequent consequence opens the doors to greater issues and problems that he may not want you to face.
I'm going to give you a personal example. My father passed away in 1981 (tomorrow his is birthday, rest his soul). He suffered a severe head trauma injury (ruled an accident, but we have never been certain of that). Inspite of best efforts, he never would have lived a normal life again. My mother is not an emotionally stable person (suffers from chronic depression). The stress and strain of caring for a toddler and an invalid husband likely would have proven too much for her. Ultimately, I suffered a great personal loss, but if my father had lived my life would likely have been far more devastated. The "accident" had to happen to bring attention to the fact that the company father worked for was keeping unsafe work conditions. Who knows how many lives were ultimately saved because of his single death? Sure, my mother prayed that my father would recover, but looking back, she really didn't know what she was asking for, and that is certainly not a life he would have wanted for himself.
All things happen for a reason, and God is not going to supercede those reasons for the sake of answering a prayer.
*edited add - That's my dad in my profile pic. Just in case you were curious.0 -
I had a laundry list of things that I was going to say but I erased it all. I have looked at the way I am writing and the way that you are writing and I realized something. I am talking about possibilities and postulating conclusions that could be true based on whether or not there actually is a god. I'll say something like "if this is true then this."
You are informing of the way things are. You are not on a journey looking for answers. You are at a destination. You are saying you already know there is a God and you have drawn conclusions based on what you have read and experienced. You are saying "this is true so this."
This story regarding your father is something very major in your life that you had to make sense of. You found where all the pieces needed to end up for your view of god and the world to remain in tact and you have built your mosaic so well that you now rest your thoughts upon it.
I am going to spare you my analysis. I am too far from it and you are too close to it. I will say I don't agree with a lot of the points you are trying to make and the conclusion you are drawing but if I were to explain why it would almost certainly offend you. I think that knowing what is true is more important than what I prefer to be true but that is not the case for most people.
I have lost people close to me as well. Some of them we Christians and some of them weren't. That gives me a different perspective on the particular mythology that you have adopted.
I think it is clear that you have an indomitable faith. If there is a God and If the Christian bible is the one book that describes him correctly then that God would be very proud of you and I am certain that the father of such a person would be granted all of the best things that such a being could bestow.0 -
I think it is clear that you have an indomitable faith. If there is a God and If the Christian bible is the one book that describes him correctly then that God would be very proud of you and I am certain that the father of such a person would be granted all of the best things that such a being could bestow.
Now you've made me cry...
Okay... imma stop. I promise. :flowerforyou:0 -
I think it is clear that you have an indomitable faith. If there is a God and If the Christian bible is the one book that describes him correctly then that God would be very proud of you and I am certain that the father of such a person would be granted all of the best things that such a being could bestow.
Now you've made me cry...
Okay... imma stop. I promise. :flowerforyou:
Well I did not want to kill the conversation off but I felt that the example you gave was sort "out of bounds" for me to comment on. I was going to respond to it as objectively as possible and then it occurred to me that would have been a bad idea.
This is why this is such a difficult thing to discuss. I am sure for every believer out there a story exists like this. It is a deeply personal story that carries a lot of gravity for each of them. When I point out a logical fallacy or a logical impossibility on my side of things I think I am just trying to eliminate inaccurate ideas in an effort to bring the truth to the surface but to the person on the other side of the conversation I could be threatening their story.
If you are correct about the existence and the identity of God I hope that evidence manifests before I die lest it become evident that God's will was for me to burn forever. "Hath not the potter the power over clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor."
If you are not correct about the existence of God I hope that evidence manifest after you die because I don't know what such a revelation would do to you.0 -
I think it is clear that you have an indomitable faith. If there is a God and If the Christian bible is the one book that describes him correctly then that God would be very proud of you and I am certain that the father of such a person would be granted all of the best things that such a being could bestow.
Now you've made me cry...
Okay... imma stop. I promise. :flowerforyou:
Well I did not want to kill the conversation off but I felt that the example you gave was sort "out of bounds" for me to comment on. I was going to respond to it as objectively as possible and then it occurred to me that would have been a bad idea.
This is why this is such a difficult thing to discuss. I am sure for every believer out there a story exists like this. It is a deeply personal story that carries a lot of gravity for each of them. When I point out a logical fallacy or a logical impossibility on my side of things I think I am just trying to eliminate inaccurate ideas in an effort to bring the truth to the surface but to the person on the other side of the conversation I could be threatening their story.
If you are correct about the existence and the identity of God I hope that evidence manifests before I die lest it become evident that God's will was for me to burn forever. "Hath not the potter the power over clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor."
If you are not correct about the existence of God I hope that evidence manifest after you die because I don't know what such a revelation would do to you.
Honestly, I feel like perhaps you are trying to apply science to faith, and faith must come before science. I mean how could anyone discover any new breakthrough unless they put a little faith into the conclusions that they have drawn. The concept of a higher power is the same way. You won't find evidence until you have a little faith. But you refuse to have any faith without the evidence. So in away, you are caught in a catch-22. I don't believe you will ever find the evidence you are looking for until you open yourself more to the possibilities. Spiritual beliefs are not carved out of concrete concepts.0 -
I think it is clear that you have an indomitable faith. If there is a God and If the Christian bible is the one book that describes him correctly then that God would be very proud of you and I am certain that the father of such a person would be granted all of the best things that such a being could bestow.
Now you've made me cry...
Okay... imma stop. I promise. :flowerforyou:
Well I did not want to kill the conversation off but I felt that the example you gave was sort "out of bounds" for me to comment on. I was going to respond to it as objectively as possible and then it occurred to me that would have been a bad idea.
This is why this is such a difficult thing to discuss. I am sure for every believer out there a story exists like this. It is a deeply personal story that carries a lot of gravity for each of them. When I point out a logical fallacy or a logical impossibility on my side of things I think I am just trying to eliminate inaccurate ideas in an effort to bring the truth to the surface but to the person on the other side of the conversation I could be threatening their story.
If you are correct about the existence and the identity of God I hope that evidence manifests before I die lest it become evident that God's will was for me to burn forever. "Hath not the potter the power over clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor."
If you are not correct about the existence of God I hope that evidence manifest after you die because I don't know what such a revelation would do to you.
Honestly, I feel like perhaps you are trying to apply science to faith, and faith must come before science. I mean how could anyone discover any new breakthrough unless they put a little faith into the conclusions that they have drawn. The concept of a higher power is the same way. You won't find evidence until you have a little faith. But you refuse to have any faith without the evidence. So in away, you are caught in a catch-22. I don't believe you will ever find the evidence you are looking for until you open yourself more to the possibilities. Spiritual beliefs are not carved out of concrete concepts.
Now this is something I can actually comment on. You don't have to have faith at all for there to be breakthroughs in science.
1. Define a question= Here you just ask something it doesn't matter what the question is.
2. Gather information and resources (observe)= Since the question is normally based on something observed this step has a bit of overlap with the first step.
3. Form an explanatory hypothesis= Here you can literally guess what you think the answer might be. You should try to make it an educated guess based on observations from step 2. You don't know if it is true or not in fact you should have no opinions about the truth value of your answer at this point.
4. Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner= Here you take your answer you came up with in step 3 and subject it to tests. This part is tough. You have to be meticulous and you have to do everything you can to isolate variables.
5. Analyze the data= Here you are just looking at what you have learned in an objective manner.
6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis= This is the most self explanatory step.
7. Publish results= Your results have to be repeatable by other scientists and you have to publish the paper so other scientists can try to reproduce your results by following your steps. If a scientist were to ever say "You have to believe in it for it to work." that scientist would be finished.
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)= You could read a paper put out by another scientist and build up their work by repeating all of these steps starting at step 1. So it is only fair that you share your work with others so they can retest your results.
Faith never enters the equation and it is necessary that it doesn't. If at any point a faith was accepted as evidence the whole house of cards would come tumbling down. Faith does not help a person find evidence. Faith actually calls a question answered in the absence of evidence or even in the presence of evidence to the contrary.0 -
I'm familiar with the scientific model. Faith falls somewhere between the question and the observation. You question God's existence, but you have not yet observed his existence. If you can put faith in the possibility of his existence, then you open yourself to observation. What I'm telling you is that you have to be receptive of the idea that God is spiritual and not concrete. His presence in your life will only become obvious when you grasp the thought that he can work in your life in ways that you can't comprehend.0
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Would it be accurate to describe the faith that you are referring to as belief in god in the absence of evidence? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here.0
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Would it be accurate to describe the faith that you are referring to as belief in god in the absence of evidence? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here.
I am saying that God makes himself known to those who look for him. I am saying that you can't look for science to answer the question. You have to look past science and consider spiritual realms and happenings. You have to look at things in your life, and see the unexpected, fortunate turn of events that should never have happened based on your knowledge of science. Those moments in your life when someone says something that resonates with you and you don't know why.
God follows the laws and principles of science, but only in an effort to provide us with a safe, comfortable world with which to live in. That doesn't mean that he doesn't possess the power to, it means that he loves us enough to refrain from displaying his power in such a way as a means to protect his creation. Therefore, he can't prove himself to you in a concrete way. You are only going to find him in deeper, spiritual meaning.0 -
I have done a lot of "if god exists" talk so I feel this is a fair question. If we took faith off of the table and the existence of god had to meet the same level of evidence that we have for radio waves would we be able to draw a ration conclusion that God exists?0
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I have done a lot of "if god exists" talk so I feel this is a fair question. If we took faith off of the table and the existence of god had to meet the same level of evidence that we have for radio waves would we be able to draw a ration conclusion that God exists?
You know... I give up. You want scientific proof. I can't give you that.
If you wanted to believe, then you would know he exists. If you would stop thinking with your head and opened your heart to the possibility, you wouldn't need scientific proof.0 -
I have done a lot of "if god exists" talk so I feel this is a fair question. If we took faith off of the table and the existence of god had to meet the same level of evidence that we have for radio waves would we be able to draw a ration conclusion that God exists?
You know... I give up. You want scientific proof. I can't give you that.
If you wanted to believe, then you would know he exists. If you would stop thinking with your head and opened your heart to the possibility, you wouldn't need scientific proof.
Alright Husky that is your prerogative. I thank you for your time and I have enjoyed our conversation in many ways. I hope that my perspective makes more sense to you now then it did before. I have reread everything that we wrote and I am sure I will again.
I am forced to conclude that you are believing in god prior to having the evidence for it because you pretty much blatantly said that. I do not know how you are capable of doing that but I do know that it means have gone to a place that I cannot follow. I have to accept whatever fate will befall me as a result of that fact because I have no other choice.
I hope I did not frustrate you and I hope that we are both just little bit smarter as a result of all this.0 -
I have done a lot of "if god exists" talk so I feel this is a fair question. If we took faith off of the table and the existence of god had to meet the same level of evidence that we have for radio waves would we be able to draw a ration conclusion that God exists?
You know... I give up. You want scientific proof. I can't give you that.
If you wanted to believe, then you would know he exists. If you would stop thinking with your head and opened your heart to the possibility, you wouldn't need scientific proof.
Alright Husky that is your prerogative. I thank you for your time and I have enjoyed our conversation in many ways. I hope that my perspective makes more sense to you now then it did before. I have reread everything that we wrote and I am sure I will again.
I am forced to conclude that you are believing in god prior to having the evidence for it because you pretty much blatantly said that. I do not know how you are capable of doing that but I do know that it means have gone to a place that I cannot follow. I have to accept whatever fate will befall me as a result of that fact because I have no other choice.
I hope I did not frustrate you and I hope that we are both just little bit smarter as a result of all this.
Oh no. This was a good conversation. I wish I could show you what you are looking for. I'll still keep praying for you though.0 -
I have done a lot of "if god exists" talk so I feel this is a fair question. If we took faith off of the table and the existence of god had to meet the same level of evidence that we have for radio waves would we be able to draw a ration conclusion that God exists?
You know... I give up. You want scientific proof. I can't give you that.
If you wanted to believe, then you would know he exists. If you would stop thinking with your head and opened your heart to the possibility, you wouldn't need scientific proof.
Alright Husky that is your prerogative. I thank you for your time and I have enjoyed our conversation in many ways. I hope that my perspective makes more sense to you now then it did before. I have reread everything that we wrote and I am sure I will again.
I am forced to conclude that you are believing in god prior to having the evidence for it because you pretty much blatantly said that. I do not know how you are capable of doing that but I do know that it means have gone to a place that I cannot follow. I have to accept whatever fate will befall me as a result of that fact because I have no other choice.
I hope I did not frustrate you and I hope that we are both just little bit smarter as a result of all this.
Oh no. This was a good conversation. I wish I could show you what you are looking for. I'll still keep praying for you though.
You can pray for me and I will think for you.0 -
You can pray for me and I will think for you.
:flowerforyou:0 -
Pick up the latest article of People magazine. There are interviews with people who all lost a limb in the Boston Marathon bombing. Their positive attitudes and gratitude for being alive are amazing. Who are you, who doesn't even believe in God, to tell amputees that God must not love them because they can never grow a limb back? I know you wouldn't actually say this to their face (at least I hope not), but when atheists make this statement, it really pisses me off.
Prayer is not meant to conform God's will to ours, but to conform ours to His. You don't get that.
You totally missed the point.0
