What's the difference? 100g, 50g, 20g, zero?
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Definitely agree, adrenal fatigue becomes an issue when very low carb and being active. I love to run but I am nursing, pregnant, raising 8 children and low carb. The first week running i feel great but then my knees and legs begin to weaken, like my body is eating my muscles...next i'm waking up at 3-4 a.m. which makes everything all the worse. As soon as i stop running, replace it with yoga and let my carbs slide (usually by adding a vitamin c drink) i'm back to incredible energy. But also like FIT goat is saying my cravings dramatically increase when i'm over 20g carbs. So it is a balancing act.
I would sure be interested in seeing some studies done on long term zero carb, and cortisol levels, out of curiosity.
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We have no idea about consistently elevated cortisol from long term keto adapted folks.
The first study looked at subjects over a 4-week period. Yeah, that's not terribly long term, but it's long enough for them to be keto-adapted (which is a semi-meaningless term). There are some interesting side-notes in that study -- e.g., elevated cortisol was a function of low carb intake, not weight loss.
Anyway, I'm pretty convinced by these studies, and they also make some metabolic sense to me, but it doesn't tell us if those cortisol levels are "bad" for us.
In the end, we can be certain that our carb intake can change our physiological state. We don't know much about the long-term effects of these changes because most people don't stay in these very-low-carb states very long. At least not until everybody on the interwebz started biohacking.
Hack away!
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I don't know if this has any bearing whatsoever but I know that I feel calmer than I ever have on this WOE. I've often said that I'm allergic to adrenalin. My anxiety reactions are way beyond 'normal' and I suffered the most debilitating anxiety attacks, usually for no apparent reason, for 27 years. I've been clear of the actual full-on attacks for 8 years now, but since LC the always-present state of hyper-alert and instant ability to feel fearful have eased so much. Wouldn't that be a case for saying that LC - well, keto in my case - is not elevating my cortisol?0
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@GrannyMayOz, you might be correct but i'm thinking that it could simply be due to sugar stabilization. My mom has always suffered from anxiety attacks and can't really handle life, period. (She is carb addicted, obese, diabetic, and now has heart disease.) That is fantastic that you are experiencing a peace/calm these days!
@Wabmester, you say you follow a moderate carb WOE, may i ask what your counts generally are? 50-100g? Just curious and do you still loose at that amount or are you at maintenance?
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I stay under 20g of carbs. I feel great. I have had great success in losing weight and it is very rare that I get a craving for anything sweet and when I do get that craving, I find something low carb to fix it.0
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OP, I think carb thresholds are highly individual and that it can be changed with diet/lifestyle. You'll have to experiment to find YOUR levels.
IMO in general some of the discussions about carb levels are confused, because they mash together carb effect on FA, NK, satiety and cravings all together. For ME, those are separate issues.
I've increased my tolerance yet again. I can now eat 150 g net carbs without it affecting FA. Ofc I'm kicked out of NK temporarily. But I also sometimes practice strategic nutrient timing eating carbs around exercise. HOWEVER, I feel best at somewhere around 50-70 g net carbs. Just because I CAN eat more carbs, doesn't mean I SHOULD. I've noticed that the more carbs I eat, the more hungry I feel and can stuff myself more. Ie. the classic peckish mood. When I keep my carbs low, I feel fuller on a lower kcal intake.
I've also noticed a difference in what types of carbs. Even lowcarb sweet desserts, like my homemade keto icecream, invariably make me want to eat even more. Like there's no "full switch".
Ty @wabmester for providing additional info and links
Edit: I think we should have tolerance for the fact that our bodies and lives are very different. I understand that someone else's experience may differ a great deal from MY experiences.0 -
GrannyMayOz wrote: »I don't know if this has any bearing whatsoever but I know that I feel calmer than I ever have on this WOE. I've often said that I'm allergic to adrenalin. My anxiety reactions are way beyond 'normal' and I suffered the most debilitating anxiety attacks, usually for no apparent reason, for 27 years. I've been clear of the actual full-on attacks for 8 years now, but since LC the always-present state of hyper-alert and instant ability to feel fearful have eased so much. Wouldn't that be a case for saying that LC - well, keto in my case - is not elevating my cortisol?
I also feel the calming effects. I think that may be the ketones and/or their effects on neurotransmitters -- probably similar to the effects on epileptics. You don't need very low carbs to make ketones (50-100g/d should make plenty).
Cortisol doesn't act like adrenaline. Long-term, high levels of cortisol do seem to affect mood and memory.TribalmamaEmily wrote: »@Wabmester, you say you follow a moderate carb WOE, may i ask what your counts generally are? 50-100g? Just curious and do you still loose at that amount or are you at maintenance?
I haven't been logging this month, but I targeted 100g/d before the no-logging kick. I would have side-effects I didn't like if I kept the levels under 50g/d for even 1-2 days. The funny taste in my mouth, light-headedness, stuff like that. So, I would usually increase my carb intake the following day to feel "normal" again.
And, yes, I lost weight and still lose weight (at a slow pace) even with no attempt at maintaining a calorie deficit.
For me personally, LC even at these fairly high levels seems to have a huge effect on my sense of satiety. I can eat 3 eggs in the morning, and I'm often good till dinner.
I do still have to avoid carbs that trigger my cravings (like chocolate-drizzled popcorn!), but I can easily eat 100g/d without eating any types of carbs that trigger cravings for me. As I said before, at that level, I think it's the quality of carb that matters more than the quantity.
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I know at one point in the past I must have reduced sugar because I remember eating something sweet one evening and as I ate I could feel my anxiety levels growing. There were no circumstances or thoughts inducing the anxiety, it was just arriving for absolutely no reason at all; presumably other than the effects of the sugar.TribalmamaEmily wrote: »@GrannyMayOz, you might be correct but i'm thinking that it could simply be due to sugar stabilization. My mom has always suffered from anxiety attacks and can't really handle life, period. (She is carb addicted, obese, diabetic, and now has heart disease.) That is fantastic that you are experiencing a peace/calm these days!
@Wabmester Thank you for your thoughts and clarifications. I aim for 0 - 20 total grams of carbs per day. Have only exceeded that twice since 14th March, yet my morning blood ketone readings are usually 0.7 to (at best) 1.1 so I'm only just truly ketotic. And that's fine but, for me, I doubt I can go much higher on the carbs and stay in ketosis. Not yet anyway, and I'll experiment with that another day after I'm at maintenance. I like your discussion topics, they're very interesting.
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GMO, ketone readings are WAY overrated. If your level is greater than zero, you are making and utilizing ketones. The more you adapt, the more you utilize. The more you utilize, the lower your blood/urine levels.0
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I thought the blood reading had to be 0.5 or above to be in ketosis?0
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There is soooo much mythology around this stuff, it makes me a little crazy sometimes. If you are eating 0-20g, you are making as many ketones as your body can possibly make. In addition to that, you are guaranteed to be making your own supply of glucose from protein.
And we haven't even talked yet about whether "ketosis" has any significant weight loss benefits. 0 -
We have no idea about consistently elevated cortisol from long term keto adapted folks.
The first study looked at subjects over a 4-week period. Yeah, that's not terribly long term, but it's long enough for them to be keto-adapted (which is a semi-meaningless term). There are some interesting side-notes in that study -- e.g., elevated cortisol was a function of low carb intake, not weight loss.
Anyway, I'm pretty convinced by these studies, and they also make some metabolic sense to me, but it doesn't tell us if those cortisol levels are "bad" for us.
In the end, we can be certain that our carb intake can change our physiological state. We don't know much about the long-term effects of these changes because most people don't stay in these very-low-carb states very long. At least not until everybody on the interwebz started biohacking.
Hack away!
4 weeks is enough to get just barely keto-adapted (which does have a definition -- the body is using the ketones it's making at about the same rate as it's making them), but nowhere near long enough to be considered "long term keto dieter." It's well known that people continue to see improvements in various hormonal pathways the longer they stay in ketosis, for several months after starting.0 -
There is soooo much mythology around this stuff, it makes me a little crazy sometimes. If you are eating 0-20g, you are making as many ketones as your body can possibly make. In addition to that, you are guaranteed to be making your own supply of glucose from protein.
And we haven't even talked yet about whether "ketosis" has any significant weight loss benefits.
What's your authority for that statement please @wabmester sometimes your statements conflict with those who have done significant research in this area. I'm not saying you're wrong, but would be grateful if you would source statements like that. TX.
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There are stages of keto-adaptation. Your brain seems to adapt VERY quickly. Your muscles take longer, but for sedentary folk, they already spend most of their time in "fat burning" mode. The muscle adaptation kicks in more for higher activity levels.
What's fascinating to me is that one of the longer-term effects seems to be a switch from the liver to the kidney for making glucose. Most people don't even know the kidneys can make glucose. Very odd states we are getting ourselves into here. 0 -
There are stages of keto-adaptation. Your brain seems to adapt VERY quickly. Your muscles take longer, but for sedentary folk, they already spend most of their time in "fat burning." The muscle adaption kicks in more for higher activity levels.
What's fascination to me is that one of the longer-term effects seems to be a switch from the liver to the kidney for making glucose. Most people don't even know the kidneys can make glucose. Very odd states we are getting ourselves into here.
Maybe eating lots of carbs is the odd state?
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totaloblivia wrote: »Maybe eating lots of carbs is the odd state?
Definitely! We are not adapted to drinking coca cola, for example. I love the factoid that our entire blood sugar supply is homeostatic at around 5-7g. Eat more than that in one sitting, and it must be dealt with pronto!
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totaloblivia wrote: »There is soooo much mythology around this stuff, it makes me a little crazy sometimes. If you are eating 0-20g, you are making as many ketones as your body can possibly make. In addition to that, you are guaranteed to be making your own supply of glucose from protein.
And we haven't even talked yet about whether "ketosis" has any significant weight loss benefits.
What's your authority for that statement please @wabmester sometimes your statements conflict with those who have done significant research in this area. I'm not saying you're wrong, but would be grateful if you would source statements like that. TX.
Sorry, missed this in the flurry of posts. I just read (and post) studies and try to connect the dots. I'm not sure what you'd like a source for that I haven't already posted in this thread.
Of the guys who write books, Phinney and Vogel are probably the only ones who have done actual studies themselves. Listen to them instead of me, but keep in mind that they are trying to keep things simple rather than trying to teach you how this stuff works. Last I checked, they recommend a range of around 50g/d carbs for the first few weeks and then an increase after that. That makes perfect sense to me. I don't recall them suggesting a target for blood ketone levels.0 -
I have to correct myself. It's Volek, not Vogel. And here are the ketone ranges they consider "nutritional ketosis":
From those who monitor their ketone levels often, they have observed variations through-out the day. I've read that some of them who have been in ketosis for years observe relatively low levels compared to the above levels that P+V consider "optimal."
Unlike blood sugar, I'm not aware of any homeostatic level of ketones that the body tries to maintain. That's why "optimal" doesn't make much sense to me, but go with the experts on this one. 0
This discussion has been closed.