Supplements
jibeirish
Posts: 244 Member
Hi Everyone, I'm new to the low carb lifestyle and was just wondering if i should be taking supplements and if so, which ones would you recommend?
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I don't, but others here might.0
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It depends on what you're eating and how low your carb intake is.
If you're targeting ketosis, you'll need to add sodium in the first week or two.
Selenium is critical, but you'll get it from eggs.
Potassium, but you'll get it from avocados.
Magnesium, but you'll get it from nuts, chocolate, etc.0 -
I don't supplement at all without evidence of deficiency first, and then I would only supplement if I couldn't meet that need through food (which wouldn't happen).
Note: not meeting the rda is not evidence of deficiency, in my book.0 -
I don't supplement at all without evidence of deficiency first, and then I would only supplement if I couldn't meet that need through food (which wouldn't happen).
Note: not meeting the rda is not evidence of deficiency, in my book.
I agree with this. I don't even generally bother with a multivitamin. The only supplements I take are non-vitamin ones for specific purposes, and even then, I've been able to taper off a couple of them due to lack of demonstrated need. I do sometimes supplement vitamin D, but that's because I live in one of the cloudiest cities in the US (293 days of the year have at least 1/4 of the sky cloudy) and have a demonstrated deficiency, at least over the winter. In the summer, I get out as much as possible and wear tanktops whenever possible to get as much sun as I can.0 -
Watch yourselves for signs of mineral depletion while you're on the ZC kick. I'm not sure how long it takes to deplete your minerals, but not that long -- probably 3 weeks would do it.0
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Watch yourselves for signs of mineral depletion while you're on the ZC kick. I'm not sure how long it takes to deplete your minerals, but not that long -- probably 3 weeks would do it.
Which minerals are you concerned about, specifically?
Goat's been ZC for over a year with no indication of deficit. The Andersen family has been ZC for almost 20 years and their boys have been ZC since birth.0 -
Unless you're sure your metabolism and your diet is the same as theirs, I'd err on the side of caution. You'll get plenty of iron.
Some of the others are only found in organ meat, for example. Just be watchful. We see lots of people here on normal LC diets who are potassium and magnesium depleted, for example. If you're unlucky, it'll be your heart that cramps up instead of your leg muscle. 0 -
Unless you're sure your metabolism and your diet is the same as theirs, I'd err on the side of caution. You'll get plenty of iron. Some of the others are only found in organ meat, for example. Just be watchful. We see lots of people here on normal LC diets who are potassium and magnesium depleted, for example. If you're unlucky, it'll be your heart that cramps up instead of your leg muscle.
You're right, I don't have the exact same diet as theirs. I eat more variety than just ribeye steaks. I'm also not curing myself of Lyme disease.
I've been very low carb for some time and my sodium and potassium levels are normal. I also consume a fair bit of sodium from various sources, and meat contains quite a bit of potassium (chicken has 166mg per 100g, bison has 215mg per 100g, and pork has 287mg per 100g). Let's average that out to 200mg/100g. That's 800-2000mg, right about where it should be (the RDA actually errs on the high side and is based on the high sodium content of the SAD, so more potassium is needed to offset the high carb + high sodium diet).
Animal products are also decent sources of magnesium. A single large chicken egg is 5mg, bison has about 25mg/100g, pork has 20-30mg per 100g. I eat 3-6 eggs and anywhere from 400g to 1kg of meat per day, thereabouts. That's 15-30mg from eggs and 100-250mg from meat, putting me not far from from the RDA (which, keep in mind, is based on a mixed, grain-heavy diet, which is heavy in phytates, insoluble fiber, and oxalates, which hinder absorption).
So, as far as I can tell, your concerns are unfounded. Care to try again? I'd love to have more on this debate explicitly spoken about, since most of it has just been implied with comments of "meat has all the nutrients you need."0 -
Obviously ZC has not been well studied. If I were planning to jump out of an airplane, I'd personally check my chute.
My concern stems from the few known deaths on medically-supervised ketogenic diets from selenium deficiencies as well as the known deaths from fasting. You're probably better off than either of those groups, but we know not everybody gets the same levels of nutrition when they make fairly radical diet changes.
Is it crazy to suggest familiarizing yourselves with signs of deficiency before making a radical diet change?0 -
My concern stems from the few known deaths on medically-supervised ketogenic diets from selenium deficiencies as well as the known deaths from fasting.
- 200g of beef/lamb has almost 130% the RDA of selenium. That's less than 8oz.
- 200g of chicken has almost 110% the RDA of selenium.
- 200g of pork has almost 150% the RDA of selenium.
I'm getting more than 100% in every single meal. I highly doubt I am at any increased risk for death from deficiency of this. And, eating zero-carb is not fasting. It's not even close. We're getting ample amounts of fat and protein to fuel our body's needs. There's no loss of heart (or other) muscle because we're eating protein.
As for the mineral deficiencies, you are ignoring the amounts that meat contains as well as the fact that the requirements for people eating zero-carb are going to be different. One of the uses for potassium (for example) is breaking down and using carbohydrates.- There is no specific RDA for potassium, though it is thought that at least 2-2.5 grams per day are needed, or about 0.8-1.5 grams per 1,000 calories consumed.
It takes about 22 oz of beef a day to meat that lower limit. That's a fair amount of beef, but a pound and a half of meat is pretty typical for most zero-carb eaters.
Magnesium excretion is lowered when levels get low. So, you're body will take care to maintain the amount you consume through beef.Is it crazy to suggest familiarizing yourselves with signs of deficiency before making a radical diet change?
I don't think it is. But, you are prone to making scary sounding conjectures about very low carb diets (raising cortisol, dying from random heart attacks, etc.) without seeming to accept that hundreds of people have done this without problems. Clearly, it's not for you. That's great. Some people like and thrive with more carbs. But, why do you constantly feel the need to "warn people off" when they talk about or consider very low carb?
Most people are sane enough to know that if they were to experience something negative, they would look into it. Not that I expect anyone to experience anything negative.0 -
People have self-reported symptoms of cortisol issues, potassium issues, and magnesium issues here. I simply checked the research to see if their issues could be related to their diet. My level of interest is high enough to read those studies. Perhaps that implies that my motivation might be due to the positive effects of ketogenic diets rather than trying to "warn people off." I continue to consider a ketogenic diet for me.0
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Obviously ZC has not been well studied. If I were planning to jump out of an airplane, I'd personally check my chute.
My concern stems from the few known deaths on medically-supervised ketogenic diets from selenium deficiencies as well as the known deaths from fasting. You're probably better off than either of those groups, but we know not everybody gets the same levels of nutrition when they make fairly radical diet changes.
Is it crazy to suggest familiarizing yourselves with signs of deficiency before making a radical diet change?
It's not crazy, but you're also asking about the obvious ones, that have been asked and answered multiple times. You've also said such things without any real specificity ("signs of mineral depletion"), which suggests either deliberate attempts at fear-mongering, or knee-jerk reactions to the elimination of plant sources of food borne out of ignorance and indoctrination. Either way, you underestimate the knowledge Goat and I have on the subject of diet and nutrient deficiencies (and no, you can't say it was a more general "keep an eye out for deficiencies" for the OP, since you specifically mentioned "our ZC kick"), as well as the weight by which we've reached out chosen way of eating. Keep in mind, too, that Goat specifically mentioned evidence of deficiency, so it's not like he's saying "don't ever take supplements." He's saying that supplements aren't necessary unless you're showing signs of deficiency (which implies familiarizing yourself with such signs).
As for selenium, large eggs contain 28% of the RDA, each. The most abundant sources of selenium are animal products -- including various types of fish (including tuna, shrimp, and scallops), chicken, and beef.0 -
Oy. Read my first post in this thread where I suggest eating eggs. I also suggest other foods that I eat that contain the minerals I know I need. I haven't researched a ZC diet explicitly because I personally have zero interest in zero carb. Knowing that a BUNCH of people here are about to try out ZC, I didn't notice any caveats about ensuring adequate nutrition, so I tossed a caveat in here. Seems prudent, no?0
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Oy. Read my first post in this thread where I suggest eating eggs. I also suggest other foods that I eat that contain the minerals I know I need. I haven't researched a ZC diet explicitly because I personally have zero interest in zero carb. Knowing that a BUNCH of people here are about to try out ZC, I didn't notice any caveats about ensuring adequate nutrition, so I tossed a caveat in here. Seems prudent, no?
And I included other, animal sources of those very nutrients. You specifically called out selenium deficiency in one of your subsequent responses, so I pointed out that a zero carb diet is not deficient in that particular mineral, even if eggs are not part of one's diet.
It's been stated from the beginning that the upcoming challenge is a more advanced challenge for those who have already been seriously considering going zero carb, but just haven't made the leap yet. Part of that is the expectation that they've done their due diligence in some form or another, and part of that included asking questions (and reading the responses) in the threads that have already discussed this at length.
The OP isn't doing zero carb, and there was no mention of it in this thread until you brought it up.0 -
I only brought it up because you, a ZC experimenter said "no worries!" Frankly, that struck me as irresponsible. Even with your "Advanced" tag for the experiment, I think it would be prudent to cover some of the things you and Goat have covered in this thread. Personally, I think this thread has generated more light than heat, but that's just me.
For me personally, I'm looking at ways that I might "optimize" ketosis. That entails understanding the boundary changes for changes in carb intake as well as micronutrient aspects. I don't have a good enough handle on this stuff yet to jump in like you skydivers, so this is how I prepare. Feel free to ignore me. 0 -
While I understand your concern, this isn't really completely untested territory. The population sizes of the real research studies have been low (3 men, 2 of which were for a whole year), but there is abundant evidence that it's not harmful and doesn't cause deficiencies--in some cases even reversing them. The worry about deficiency and harm was addressed back almost 100 years ago. No evidence of deficiency showed up after a full year of meat only, and that was without eggs or dairy.
Outside of formal research, there are many people who have done this (some for a very long time) without harm. I honestly believe that the risk is extremely minimal for anyone participating, even someone coming in right off the street. Stefansson used to just set out across the ice with people, and when the supplies ran out it was 100% meat from then on. Aside from lack of appetite for a short period, he didn't find people dropping over from potassium deficiency. The risks and chance of discomfort is even lower for those who have dealt with keto-adaptation already.
All that said, aside from fiber, we have told people they are free to continue whatever supplements they desire, if it makes them feel safer.
While there has been a lot of talk here, lately, about zero-carb, we remain committed to accepting people from all forms of carb restriction. It's not like zero-carb is for everyone, nor do we promote it as a way for everyone. There was enough interest that some felt an organized challenge would be cool. That's all. You don't need to worry about this group becoming a zero-carb or "you must eat less than 20g a day" type group. There are plenty of higher-carb (relatively) eaters here. Historically, they don't post as much. There's a disproportionate amount of keto and very-low-carb posts simply because that way of eating is the most significantly different from the norm.0 -
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Goat. I've only read cursory accounts of Stefansson, but my understanding is that he modeled his diet on that of the Inuit, and that was obviously a complete diet. It may have been so complete that the Inuit weren't even in ketosis! (Don't ask me to back that up -- this is all based on my cursory reading.)
I think this forum is great in part due to total disregard for conventional wisdom and the willingness to experiment. At the same time, I respect much of the past research, including some of the studies that suggest a more cautious approach to some diet changes (like going below 30g carbs, going very high in fat, etc).
ZC sounds like a nice low-effort way to keep carbs low, as long as there's no downside to it. Maybe it is a free lunch. 0 -
I appreciate what you have said here wabmester. I didn't even stop to think about how very low carb could possibly make me deficient in some things. Now I will do some research on it :-).0
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I do eat quite a varied diet on 20g carbs a day, but mustn't be getting enough magnesium. So I supplement magnesium to avoid painful leg cramps in the night, which show up without fail after a couple of days without (I'm rubbish at remembering). I don't take the whole rda though, usually half. I sometimes take a little extra potassium, sometimes a multivitamin as I bought some when I first started as I couldn't believe it was healthy to eat so few fruit and veg! I've got over that thought now, lol! Occasionally I take spirulina just to use it up as I had it from before.0
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I have been testing a few cancer treatment protocols so I have them tested before we or other family members. I have tried Fulvic Acid but would up going with Shilajit that is 50% fulvic acid vs the 5% solution I was drinking. Because I am low on Vitamin D3 I take it which means I needed to take Vitamin K1 and K2 which I now do. We do PQQ (pyrroloquinoline quinone) to increase the number of mitochondrial and and the Ubiquinol form of CoQ10. I do a couple other expensive patented supplements more geared to treating cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson, etc type conditions.0
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Does anyone know if there is a medically sourced RDA for people on a Ketogenic or LCHFMP type of diet? I would be sincerely curious about such expectations. I know this particular way of life/eating is not be most scientifically studied, so I would just wonder if anyone has run across this in metabolic circles anywhere.0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Does anyone know if there is a medically sourced RDA for people on a Ketogenic or LCHFMP type of diet? I would be sincerely curious about such expectations. I know this particular way of life/eating is not be most scientifically studied, so I would just wonder if anyone has run across this in metabolic circles anywhere.
I'd be interested to see one, too, but I've never seen indication of any (I'd love to be proven wrong on this one, though). You know how the medical industry is. =/0 -
I read a discussion of medical protocols for ketogenic diets. I'll see if I can find it again, but my impression was that they were in the dark ages.
Edit: not a lot of detail in this one, but still an interesting read (PDF):
http://site.matthewsfriends.org/uploads/pdf/HartmanViningKDReview.pdf
Vitamin and mineral supplementation is provided to prevent known deficiencies
I'm sure there's a detailed protocol out there somewhere.
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If I start to feel goofy in some way, I tap into supplements. For example, I have been crazy lethargic the last 3 days. Being the hypochondriac that I am, I woke up lethargic again this morning and decided this must be cancer. When I came back to reality I realized that maybe I’m deficient in something. Not knowing what would do that (other than iron), I just took half a multivitamin. I still don’t feel 100% but I feel less like I gulped an entire bottle of Benadryl. If I have cramps in my legs, I will take magnesium.
Thinking about my stall, I wonder if not getting the right nutrients will cause the body to be more likely to hold on to weight. I suppose that’s obvious if you have a thyroid disorder. Hrmm… now I think I’ll get back into vitamins, dang it!
Anyway, this is what I used to take last year when I first started doing keto.
Multivitamin – ½ in morning with food, ½ at night with food
Omega 3/6/Fish Oil – any of those were taken in the morning
Calcium – At least 2 hours after eating. taken with Magnesium
Potassium – at night
Magnesium - with calcium mid-morning and at night without calcium0 -
I wonder if a seizure doctor would know better, since that is where the diet methodology originated?0
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I don't have any advise, and I have not had any testing done, but I do personally take supplements. And I am pretty sure that it is only to make me 'feel' better. (Not really feel better)
I take (Split between morning and night):
Magnesium - I do get cramps in the bottoms of my feet at night, and I don't get them when I take this.
B12 - Because I always have. I use to work outside all day, and it helped with my energy
Potassium - I have a history of Hyperventilation as a result of Low potassium (at lease low potassium was what I was told)
Prenatal vitamin - Because I am thinking of adding to our family this fall
Omega/Fish Oil - Because it has DHA (again with the pregnancy thing)
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